Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: If You Could Only Pray for One Thing


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: If You Could Only Pray for One Thing Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: If You Could Only Pray for One Thing - 7/22/2010 12:38:28 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

It's also a wasted prayer

Yeah, I thought the same thing.

K.

(in reply to Brain)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: If You Could Only Pray for One Thing - 7/22/2010 1:04:36 AM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		It’s a waste of time. They did a study comparing people who prayed comparing them to those who didn’t and praying made no difference in the results.

And it makes sense that this would be the result and it’s logical because there is no such thing as God except in human being’s imagination.

Long-Awaited Medical Study Questions the Power of Prayer

By BENEDICT CAREY
Published: March 31, 2006

Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery of people who were undergoing heart surgery, a large and long-awaited study has found.

And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications like abnormal heart rhythms, perhaps because of the expectations the prayers created, the researchers suggested.

Because it is the most scientifically rigorous investigation of whether prayer can heal illness, the study, begun almost a decade ago and involving more than 1,800 patients, has for years been the subject of speculation.

The question has been a contentious one among researchers. Proponents have argued that prayer is perhaps the most deeply human response to disease, and that it may relieve suffering by some mechanism that is not yet understood. Skeptics have contended that studying prayer is a waste of money and that it presupposes supernatural intervention, putting it by definition beyond the reach of science.


The study cost $2.4 million, and most of the money came from the John Templeton Foundation, which supports research into spirituality. The government has spent more than $2.3 million on prayer research since 2000.


In the study, the researchers monitored 1,802 patients at six hospitals who received coronary bypass surgery, in which doctors reroute circulation around a clogged vein or artery.


Analyzing complications in the 30 days after the operations, the researchers found no differences between those patients who were prayed for and those who were not.

In another of the study's findings, a significantly higher number of the patients who knew that they were being prayed for — 59 percent — suffered complications, compared with 51 percent of those who were uncertain. The authors left open the possibility that this was a chance finding. But they said that being aware of the strangers' prayers also may have caused some of the patients a kind of performance anxiety.

"It may have made them uncertain, wondering am I so sick they had to call in their prayer team?" Dr. Bethea said.

The study also found that more patients in the uninformed prayer group — 18 percent — suffered major complications, like heart attack or stroke, compared with 13 percent in the group that did not receive prayers. In their report, the researchers suggested that this finding might also be a result of chance.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

The sense to realize that praying is counterproductive.



Why would you call "prayer" unproductive?


(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: If You Could Only Pray for One Thing - 7/22/2010 1:10:16 AM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		If they kill others no but the results will be the same as if you did not pray, so it's a waste of your time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

Would it be wrong to pray for the death of my enemies?

Mongol General: "What is best in life?"
Conan: "To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women."




(in reply to Jeffff)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: If You Could Only Pray for One Thing - 7/22/2010 1:21:11 AM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		You don't even know what liberalism means! Knucklehead.

Liberalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Liberalism (from the Latin liberalis, "of freedom"[1]) is the belief in the importance of liberty and equality.[2][3] Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but most liberals support such fundamental ideas as constitutions, liberal democracy, free and fair elections, human rights, capitalism, free trade, and the separation of church and state. These ideas are widely accepted, even by political groups that do not openly profess a liberal ideological orientation. Liberalism encompasses several intellectual trends and traditions, but the dominant variants are classical liberalism, which became popular in the 18th century, and social liberalism, which became popular in the 20th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

The end of liberalism..


(in reply to servantforuse)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: If You Could Only Pray for One Thing - 7/22/2010 1:23:39 AM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		I hope he becomes a gambling addict and loses all his money.


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

That glenn beck dies a horrible death



I dont want Glen Beck to die a horrible death....

BUT, I do wish that somebody would put him in a straight jacket with a ball gag in his mouth and then place him in a padded cell.


(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: If You Could Only Pray for One Thing - 7/22/2010 10:19:49 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

It’s a waste of time. They did a study...

Unh, there's been a lot more than just one, Mister Cherry Picker...

"There have been a number of studies on intercessory prayer, or prayer offered for the benefit of another person," said Hodge, a leading expert on spirituality and religion. "Some have found positive results for prayer. Others have found no effect. Conducting a meta-analysis takes into account the entire body of empirical research on intercessory prayer. Using this procedure, we find that prayer offered on behalf of another yields positive results."

Hodge noted that his study is important because it is a compilation of available studies and is not a single work with a single conclusion. His "Systematic Review" takes into account the findings of 17 studies that used intercessory prayer as a treatment in practice settings.

Reference

I'd say the question is at least still open.

K.

(in reply to Brain)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: If You Could Only Pray for One Thing - 7/22/2010 10:25:52 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

Unh, there's been a lot more than just one, Mister Cherry Picker...

"There have been a number of studies on intercessory prayer, or prayer offered for the benefit of another person," said Hodge, a leading expert on spirituality and religion. "Some have found positive results for prayer. Others have found no effect. Conducting a meta-analysis takes into account the entire body of empirical research on intercessory prayer. Using this procedure, we find that prayer offered on behalf of another yields positive results."

Hodge noted that his study is important because it is a compilation of available studies and is not a single work with a single conclusion. His "Systematic Review" takes into account the findings of 17 studies that used intercessory prayer as a treatment in practice settings.

Reference

I'd say the question is at least still open.


I noticed he never answered my question

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 7/22/2010 10:26:46 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Brain)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: If You Could Only Pray for One Thing - 7/22/2010 7:54:33 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

It’s a waste of time. They did a study...

Unh, there's been a lot more than just one, Mister Cherry Picker...

"There have been a number of studies on intercessory prayer, or prayer offered for the benefit of another person," said Hodge, a leading expert on spirituality and religion. "Some have found positive results for prayer. Others have found no effect. Conducting a meta-analysis takes into account the entire body of empirical research on intercessory prayer. Using this procedure, we find that prayer offered on behalf of another yields positive results."

Hodge noted that his study is important because it is a compilation of available studies and is not a single work with a single conclusion. His "Systematic Review" takes into account the findings of 17 studies that used intercessory prayer as a treatment in practice settings.

Reference

I'd say the question is at least still open.

K.


Ummm, talk about cherry picking..... According to the article you cited:

"Some people feel Benson and associates' study from last year, which is the most recent and showed no positive effects for intercessory prayer, is the final word," said Hodge, referring to a 2006 article by Dr. Herbert Benson of the Harvard Medical School that measured the therapeutic effect of intercessory prayer in cardiac bypass patients. "But, this research suggests otherwise..."

What research is Hodge referring to?

"a comprehensive analysis of 17 major studies on the effects of intercessory prayer -- or prayer that is offered for the benefit of another person -- among people with psychological or medical problems."

Comparing Hodge's meta-analysis in psychological or medical problems to Benson's study of cardiac bypass patients is grapes to oranges.

Then Hodge issues the great big fat caveat:

"Overall, the meta-analysis indicates that prayer is effective. Is it effective enough to meet the standards of the American Psychological Association's Division 12 for empirically validated interventions? No. Thus, we should not be treating clients suffering with depression, for example, only with prayer. To treat depression, standard treatments, such as cognitive therapy, should be used as the primary method of treatment."

The results are not even valid enough for psychological patients. And who is Hodge anyway? What are his scientific research credentials?

"Hodge, a leading expert on spirituality and religion." which you stated above.

I don't find this very convincing stuff, K.


_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: If You Could Only Pray for One Thing - 7/22/2010 8:10:02 PM   
playfulotter


Posts: 2195
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline 		Since I think a lot of other people have the human race and peace and war covered...I would wish that everyone would become more responsible pet owners and spay and neuter their dogs and cats....I wish that they wouldn't just let them breed for a small monetary gain and/or because they feel it is a natural thing....so many are killed needlessly and it doesn't have to be that way!


_____________________________

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” ― Benjamin Franklin

"Some people are otters, some people are rocks." ~Sheldon Cooper

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: If You Could Only Pray for One Thing - 7/22/2010 10:52:36 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

I don't find this very convincing stuff, K.

Please abandon the notion that anyone expressing an opinion contrary to your own is attempting to "convince" you of something.

K.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: If You Could Only Pray for One Thing - 7/23/2010 6:06:19 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

I don't find this very convincing stuff, K.

Please abandon the notion that anyone expressing an opinion contrary to your own is attempting to "convince" you of something.

K.


Interesting that when you are challenged on the merits of your opinion your reply becomes personal. Evidently that is the best defense you have, which is no defense at all. pffl

I notice another avoidance method you use is to pick out one or two small phrases and comment on those instead of the substance of the issue.

Just to be clear, it was not your opinion that I opposed but the lame supporting evidence. I really don't give a fig about your opinion. Everyone brings a slanted opinion to these Forums.



< Message edited by vincentML -- 7/23/2010 6:16:43 AM >

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: If You Could Only Pray for One Thing - 7/23/2010 7:50:12 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I missed this post, I do not know how...


You miss the entire reason that prayer is valuable. It is valuable for the same reasons meditation is valuable. It is of value to the person who is praying. The brain chemistry of someone praying changes the same way that it does in those who meditate....

There was a atheist cardiologist that wrote a book called The Relaxation Response... read it before being dismissive about the power of prayer, it saves lives, like in relieving stress, reducing high blood pressure, which prolongs life.

Not to mention those who pray when they are ill, not those who pray for the ill... do you not see the difference? Those who pray for better results often get them because they believe they will be effective, like the placebo effect, and before you dismiss the placebo effect, like many scientists do, the most powerful healing comes from within. People always heal themselves, medical science just helps create conditions to further the healing power of the human body, but healing takes place within, and is controlled by the brain...

So before you go around dismissing prayer, why not take a look at what it does for the prayerful, and not for the prayed for

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 7/23/2010 7:51:44 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Brain)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: If You Could Only Pray for One Thing - 7/23/2010 1:25:57 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Interesting that when you are challenged on the merits of your opinion....

Eh? Challenged on the merits? Surely you jest....

First you accuse me of cherry-picking for simply excerpting the study's findings, as if that was somehow misleading. Second, you claim that posting the outcome of a meta-analysis which found statistically significant positive effects constitutes a flawed comparison of "grapes to oranges". Third, you call into question the researcher's credentials on the basis that VincentML (who knows everybody) never heard of him. And finally, you dismiss the whole business because the effect was not sufficiently powerful to meet the criteria for a stand-alone treatment modality -- which is irrelevant to the substantive finding.

Really, Vincent, sometimes you are terribly droll.

K.




< Message edited by Kirata -- 7/23/2010 2:30:29 PM >

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: If You Could Only Pray for One Thing - 7/23/2010 2:32:23 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline 		.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: If You Could Only Pray for One Thing - 7/23/2010 5:00:32 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Interesting that when you are challenged on the merits of your opinion....

Eh? Challenged on the merits? Surely you jest....

First you accuse me of cherry-picking for simply excerpting the study's findings, as if that was somehow misleading. Second, you claim that posting the outcome of a meta-analysis which found statistically significant positive effects constitutes a flawed comparison of "grapes to oranges". Third, you call into question the researcher's credentials on the basis that VincentML (who knows everybody) never heard of him. And finally, you dismiss the whole business because the effect was not sufficiently powerful to meet the criteria for a stand-alone treatment modality -- which is irrelevant to the substantive finding.

Really, Vincent, sometimes you are terribly droll.

K.



Really, Kirata, you were the one who first used the term "cherry picking."

Secondly, you did not post the outcome of a meta-analysis which found statistically significant positive effects. You posted a magazine article about the study. Another article which I will present points out there were many flaws in the studies, but one very glaring flaw in the concept.

Thirdly, it is not impermissable to question a researcher's credentials and biases.

Fourthly, I dismiss the whole business of testing for the effects of third party prayer in therapy because it is no better an endeavor and no less ludicrous than the absurdity of seeing two opposing football teams praying for success to the same god.

Here are excerpts from another article that at the least gives some of the results of the analysis, since neither of us has Hodge's original report, and more importantly gives an opinion of the whole business from a Christian writer's point of view.


"<SNIP> In eleven of the studies, intercessory prayer exhibited no or only marginally statistically significant effects....<SNIP>

A second moderate position will be that all the studies were flawed in one way or another. Controlling all variables other than prayer is exceedingly difficult. Many would say that it is impossible. Those who conducted STEP wrote that its results “may be due to the study limitations.” This is not entirely surprising. A third response is likely to be that these studies proceeded on assumptions about the nature and practice of prayer that are questionable.
<SNIP>

Jesus taught us to pray in private, not conduct highly publicized studies of what happens when we commune with God. <SNIP>

The seventeen studies that Hodge analyzed display what happens when prayer devolves into a crass and almost commercial exchange: “When I pray, I want results!”

There is one thing worse than not praying at all and it is to pray as did those in these research endeavors. This kind of prayer is neither therapeutically effective nor theologically viable. It is next to worthless."

And this observation of note from a respondent to the article I have linked:

"Honestly these prayer studies are just a disaster and I cringe every time I hear them trumpeted. One showed a significant effect of prayer. Many outcomes including death rate, length of hospital stay, post-op complications etc were measured and they got one significant finding on reducing the amount of time a surgery patient needs a catheter. No effect on death outcome mind you, just catheter time. So what can we conclude about God from that?"

http://www.spectrummagazine.org/articles/column/2008/03/07/arizona_professor_analyzes_research_whether_prayer_works

Nothing droll about it, K. There are Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistical Analysis. Catheter time is a significant indicator?

Even the Bensen cardiac study may have been flawed, as revealed in the article i linked.

The whole business of trying to validate the efficacy of prayer in medical practice is a desperate exercise by people who are insecure in their own Faith and feel need to turn to Science for reassurance.

And your posting of incomplete information on a study and claiming significance for it is pretty lame.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 7/23/2010 6:01:46 PM >

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: If You Could Only Pray for One Thing - 7/23/2010 6:03:21 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Jesus taught us to pray in private, not conduct highly publicized studies of what happens when we commune with God.

Yes, that must be it. The studies are flawed because the praying was not as Jesus taught. There's a hoot.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

So what can we conclude about God from that?"

Interesting that you included this comment, since that wasn't the point and nobody (least of all Hodges himself) has ever suggested that we could conclude anything about God from studies on prayer, regardless of their outcome. But, of course, I appreciate your concern with that one.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

The whole business of trying to validate the efficacy of prayer in medical practice is a desperate exercise by people who are insecure in their own Faith and feel need to turn to Science for reassurance.

It looks to me more like you are the one who is insecure in his atheism, given the energy you invest in trying to deconstruct any opinion at variance with your own, even when the case in point has no bearing on the issue. But I understand, why take chances, somebody might think it does. Never hurts to be thorough, eh?

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

And your posting of incomplete information on a study and claiming significance for it is pretty lame.

I posted the summary published in Science Digest. You are referencing a column written by a professor of religion who feels compelled to work Jesus into the picture, which just goes to show that you'll stop at nothing if it serves your purposes.

But if you don't mind attending to a minor detail, all this challenges the merit of my opinion that "the question is at least still open" precisely how?

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 7/23/2010 6:47:58 PM >

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: If You Could Only Pray for One Thing - 7/24/2010 6:44:29 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

But if you don't mind attending to a minor detail, all this challenges the merit of my opinion that "the question is at least still open" precisely how?


The question is still open only in the agnostic sense because there is no way to adequately control all the variants and isolate the effects of prayer. Meta-analysis is not the golden grail of science you imply it to be. The efficacy of prayer is no more testable as an hypothesis than is the existence of god.

Meta-analysis has several weaknesses as a procedure. Two I tried to point out among others but you choose to ignore.

It is not science; it is statistics. Garbage in, garbage out. A statistical analysis of poorly designed studies is a statistical analysis of poorly designed studies and nothing more. In this case even the most respected of all the studies, the Bensen study, concluded with the proviso that there were limitations in design.

Secondly, weakness may come from personal bias of the investigator, especially if he has an agenda. But, you threw a hissy when I tried to make that suggestion. In this case Hodge set up a criteria to pick only 17 studies out of many. That alone opens the door to questioning bias. Another source of bias may come from picking the variants to be plugged into the regression formula.

So yeh the question is still open but only because it is impractical as a scientific issue. And the fact that you found the article in a science magazine of which you are fond does not give it any merit. Nor does that obscure the status of the question as junk science along with other paranormal claims.

Yes, that is my opinion. I see the issue as nothing more than another psuedo-scientific para-normal diversion. Fun to speculate upon over a beer ot two but no way to falsify, so not science, no matter how you attempt to cloak it as such.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 7/24/2010 7:15:41 AM >

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: If You Could Only Pray for One Thing - 7/24/2010 6:54:33 AM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		The main wish I have always had, regardless of my personal circumstances, is that my adult children lead happy, content lives. Nothing will ever trump that.

I do not pray, I am more likely to give positive thoughts or serious meditation. But I do not discount prayer and its benefits for those who find it worthy. I also would hope that they would not discount how I choose to interact or not interact in similar situations.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: If You Could Only Pray for One Thing - 7/24/2010 7:17:15 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

You miss the entire reason that prayer is valuable. It is valuable for the same reasons meditation is valuable. It is of value to the person who is praying. The brain chemistry of someone praying changes the same way that it does in those who meditate....

There was a atheist cardiologist that wrote a book called The Relaxation Response... read it before being dismissive about the power of prayer, it saves lives, like in relieving stress, reducing high blood pressure, which prolongs life.

Not to mention those who pray when they are ill, not those who pray for the ill... do you not see the difference? Those who pray for better results often get them because they believe they will be effective, like the placebo effect, and before you dismiss the placebo effect, like many scientists do, the most powerful healing comes from within. People always heal themselves, medical science just helps create conditions to further the healing power of the human body, but healing takes place within, and is controlled by the brain...

So before you go around dismissing prayer, why not take a look at what it does for the prayerful, and not for the prayed for


I agree.  My concept of G-d is that he is not required to respond to prayer.  I mean, who's in charge here?  So expecting that prayer is a payment, and that services are required to be rendered strikes me as silly and a kind of hubris.

That said, if I feel that something is important enough to pray about, it is important enough for me to care about.  And act upon.  It is a prioritizing and focusing tool.

And if I could pray about something, it would be to have the opportunities, energy, and health of when I was 20, along with the smarts I've gotten since then.



_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: If You Could Only Pray for One Thing - 7/24/2010 7:20:53 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline 		Intercessionary prayer and meditative prayer seem to be two different issues, aren't they?

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 40
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: If You Could Only Pray for One Thing Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.110