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RE: New gold-backed currency could be in use next month... - 7/22/2010 3:01:10 PM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
Gold and silver have intrinsic value because there is a need for them


What happens if there is no longer a need for them?


They retain their intrinsic value (the properties that made them useful) while losing their status as commodities.

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RE: New gold-backed currency could be in use next month... - 7/22/2010 3:01:41 PM   
EbonyWood


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Hoard aluminum.

Save your soft drink and beer cans and you'll be a multi-millionaire in no time.


I'm going with salt.
 
People always need it
 
Me and hunky are going to be rich.
 
 
 
EW
Time for a new New World Order.

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RE: New gold-backed currency could be in use next month... - 7/22/2010 3:04:48 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
Gold and silver have intrinsic value because there is a need for them


What happens if there is no longer a need for them?


They retain their intrinsic value (the properties that made them useful) while losing their status as commodities.


LOL. Nice try, but if there is no longer a need for them they are no longer useful, ergo no intrinsic value.

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: New gold-backed currency could be in use next month... - 7/22/2010 3:08:20 PM   
jlf1961


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Look, when the NWO takes over (according to pahunk) it wont matter anyway there will be one world currency with a set value.

Of course, I truly expect some natural catastrophe to pretty much destroy human civilization and put me, my 10 rifles, 8 pistols, and shit ton of ammo at or near the top of the food chain.

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RE: New gold-backed currency could be in use next month... - 7/22/2010 3:08:54 PM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
LOL. Nice try, but if there is no longer a need for them they are no longer useful, ergo no intrinsic value.


Meh I still think salt has intrinsic value.

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RE: New gold-backed currency could be in use next month... - 7/22/2010 3:11:13 PM   
wittynamehere


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: wittynamehere

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

He's wrong then. Gold has a number of properties that make it valuable - it doesn't rust, it conducts electricity brilliantly, it's malleable. Gold is used in so much tech these days the only way gold could possibly be worth nothing is if we somehow regressed to rocks and spears.


Gold has as many properties that make it valuable as any of a number of other materials that we don't trade as currency.

Myself, I think aluminum is going to be the next big thing.

Hoard aluminum.

Save your soft drink and beer cans and you'll be a multi-millionaire in no time.


Elisabella is right.
Gold and silver have intrinsic value because there is a need for them. Both are extensively used in industry, although silver has a FAR larger share in that regard. Most of the above ground silver has been used up in the past 100 years, and mining isn't even producing enough to meet demand anymore. Everything electronic requires silver, and now solar panels and medicines are using it, with new uses being found weekly. If you think these metals only have value because we declare them to, you are sorely mistaken. Please just google "silver uses" and go from there. It sounds like a lot of people have bought into the lie that paper rectangles actually can replace real money. They only represent value, as opposed to having intrinsic value like the PMs do.

"Value" is the word given to something that we desire because it's useful. The more useful, the more valuable. The more common and easy to get something is, the less value it has. Gold is somewhat useful and very rare, which gives it a value currently of about $1200 USD per ounce. Silver is incredibly useful and moderately rare, which gives it a value currently of about $18 USD per ounce.

A high % of the Earth's crust is aluminum. It's very useful, but not rare at all.



Gold and silver have intrinsic value because there is a need for them


What happens if there is no longer a need for them?


That's never happened in the 5000 years of recorded history, but we're in some pretty strange times, so there's always that chance. I don't see it happening for silver, because it's simply irreplaceable in so many applications. For some, copper, gold, or another metal from that group could be used. For others, the product, service, or technology would just simply have to end. Why are mirrors so shiny? That's a thin layer of silver. Renewable energy like solar power relies on silver. It seems like we're moving toward solar power rather than away from it, but I suppose we could abandon it completely. But no, I don't see all the uses for silver disappearing, unless humanity goes back to living without energy, medicine, or technology. Gold has some degree of irreplaceability, but not nearly what silver has. Gold is simply rarer (below ground, anyway), and has a bigger monetary vector than silver because it has always been known as the money metal.


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RE: New gold-backed currency could be in use next month... - 7/22/2010 3:13:22 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
LOL. Nice try, but if there is no longer a need for them they are no longer useful, ergo no intrinsic value.


Meh I still think salt has intrinsic value.


It has a current value, because no subsititute has been found for all of its uses. The exchange rate for salt has suffered mightily though. And the same can happen to anything else.

The only thing that might be argued to have intrinsic value is labor, because, except in a science fiction novel, all needs of all individuals are virtually impossible to be met without it. And if that day came, gold and salt sure as hell would have no value.

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RE: New gold-backed currency could be in use next month... - 7/22/2010 3:15:41 PM   
EbonyWood


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You and wittynamehere are right Elisabella, and wilburrr remains with his head up his ass.
 
The salt he quoted was a dumb example.
 
Doesnt matter if it has a value 0.000000000001% of what it used to. Value is relative.
 
If gold is no longer used as a commodity, it only takes one person to place the most minute value on it (as a paperweight or something) for it to retain intrinsic value, to them.
 
 

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RE: New gold-backed currency could be in use next month... - 7/22/2010 3:19:12 PM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
It has a current value, because no subsititute has been found for all of its uses. The exchange rate for salt has suffered mightily though. And the same can happen to anything else.

The only thing that might be argued to have intrinsic value is labor, because, except in a science fiction novel, all needs of all individuals are virtually impossible to be met without it. And if that day came, gold and salt sure as hell would have no value.


Meh the current value of labor is low too. Too much supply, not enough demand, so many things can be done by pushing a button. I agree that the concept has intrinsic value but it is a concept not a thing.

Salt's useful because people die without it. Same with fresh water and air. Obviously water's intrinsic value is now being transformed into market value selling it in bottles.

The only thing that could completely replace gold would be synthetic gold but even that wouldn't lower it's intrinsic value. Theoretically society could change to a point where gold was no longer used in any tech but wouldn't that be something out of a science-fiction novel too?

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RE: New gold-backed currency could be in use next month... - 7/22/2010 3:22:24 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wittynamehere

Elisabella is right.
Gold and silver have intrinsic value because there is a need for them. Both are extensively used in industry, although silver has a FAR larger share in that regard. Most of the above ground silver has been used up in the past 100 years, and mining isn't even producing enough to meet demand anymore. Everything electronic requires silver, and now solar panels and medicines are using it, with new uses being found weekly. If you think these metals only have value because we declare them to, you are sorely mistaken. Please just google "silver uses" and go from there. It sounds like a lot of people have bought into the lie that paper rectangles actually can replace real money. They only represent value, as opposed to having intrinsic value like the PMs do.

"Value" is the word given to something that we desire because it's useful. The more useful, the more valuable. The more common and easy to get something is, the less value it has. Gold is somewhat useful and very rare, which gives it a value currently of about $1200 USD per ounce. Silver is incredibly useful and moderately rare, which gives it a value currently of about $18 USD per ounce.

A high % of the Earth's crust is aluminum. It's very useful, but not rare at all.


Neither silver nor gold is so rare and valuable that it commands those prices.

It is that valuable because we have placed that value on it.


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RE: New gold-backed currency could be in use next month... - 7/22/2010 3:25:58 PM   
rulemylife


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Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EbonyWood

You and wittynamehere are right Elisabella, and wilburrr remains with his head up his ass.
 
The salt he quoted was a dumb example.
 
Doesnt matter if it has a value 0.000000000001% of what it used to. Value is relative.
 
If gold is no longer used as a commodity, it only takes one person to place the most minute value on it (as a paperweight or something) for it to retain intrinsic value, to them.
 
 


Then you are arguing against yourself.

For anything to have value it is the value placed on it by us.

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: New gold-backed currency could be in use next month... - 7/22/2010 3:29:05 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

The only thing that could completely replace gold would be synthetic gold but even that wouldn't lower it's intrinsic value. Theoretically society could change to a point where gold was no longer used in any tech but wouldn't that be something out of a science-fiction novel too?


So why was gold considered valuable before we had these technological uses?

(in reply to Elisabella)
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RE: New gold-backed currency could be in use next month... - 7/22/2010 3:42:08 PM   
wittynamehere


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

The only thing that could completely replace gold would be synthetic gold but even that wouldn't lower it's intrinsic value. Theoretically society could change to a point where gold was no longer used in any tech but wouldn't that be something out of a science-fiction novel too?


So why was gold considered valuable before we had these technological uses?



Because it had other uses.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
Neither silver nor gold is so rare and valuable that it commands those prices.

I disagree. Those are today's current prices. It is buying and selling at those prices as we type.


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RE: New gold-backed currency could be in use next month... - 7/22/2010 3:44:37 PM   
EbonyWood


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: EbonyWood

You and wittynamehere are right Elisabella, and wilburrr remains with his head up his ass.
 
The salt he quoted was a dumb example.
 
Doesnt matter if it has a value 0.000000000001% of what it used to. Value is relative.
 
If gold is no longer used as a commodity, it only takes one person to place the most minute value on it (as a paperweight or something) for it to retain intrinsic value, to them.
 
 


Then you are arguing against yourself.

For anything to have value it is the value placed on it by us.



That's my point, which was missed by whoever mocked intrinsic, so I'm arguing against them, not me. Nobodysdaddy limited definition revolved around it being used as a commodity.

If the value of something is linked to it's essential nature, there can be no definition of intrinsic beyond an individual one. If some tribe living in a remote barter based society see gold's 'essential nature' as being the substance they use to throw at monkeys on alternate Wednesdays and have no other use for it, then that is it's value.

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RE: New gold-backed currency could be in use next month... - 7/22/2010 3:50:14 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wittynamehere

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

So why was gold considered valuable before we had these technological uses?



Because it had other uses.


Which were?  Other than jewelry.

quote:


I disagree. Those are today's current prices. It is buying and selling at those prices as we type.



What are you disagreeing with?

Of course it is selling for those prices.

Now compare those prices to its worth as a manufacturing material and tell me with a straight face that its value is based on its uses.



< Message edited by rulemylife -- 7/22/2010 3:51:02 PM >

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RE: New gold-backed currency could be in use next month... - 7/22/2010 3:59:04 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EbonyWood

That's my point, which was missed by whoever mocked intrinsic, so I'm arguing against them, not me. Nobodysdaddy limited definition revolved around it being used as a commodity.

If the value of something is linked to it's essential nature, there can be no definition of intrinsic beyond an individual one. If some tribe living in a remote barter based society see gold's 'essential nature' as being the substance they use to throw at monkeys on alternate Wednesdays and have no other use for it, then that is it's value.


I misunderstood you.

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RE: New gold-backed currency could be in use next month... - 7/22/2010 4:10:58 PM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

So why was gold considered valuable before we had these technological uses?



Beauty, purity, ability to be shaped easily, lack of rust or tarnish, rarity, currency.

If I were going to make a statue of my god or king or whatever I'd rather have it made of gold than of copper. And it's not like ancient civilizations had the ability to make aluminium metal.

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RE: New gold-backed currency could be in use next month... - 7/22/2010 4:12:13 PM   
wittynamehere


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
Which were?  Other than jewelry.

I don't know, I wasn't there, and I've never studied history. But if people wanted it, then it had uses. We don't want anything that has no use to us.

If I had to guess, I'd say in addition to jewelry (which you mentioned) gold probably had ceremonial, trade, medicinal, artistic, and tool uses.

It doesn't really matter what uses they had for it. They had uses for it, which made it valuable to them, and it has been used and traded since before recorded history.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
Now compare those prices to its worth as a manufacturing material and tell me with a straight face that its value is based on its uses.

It's being bought at those prices for use in industry ("manufacturing material") every minute of every day. That's what the COMEX is there for. Massive companies require huge contracts of both gold and silver for industrial use. They buy it at spot price, which is currently about $1200USD/oz for gold and $18USD/oz for silver.


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RE: New gold-backed currency could be in use next month... - 7/22/2010 4:16:29 PM   
Elisabella


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Gold, measured out, became money. Gold's beauty, scarcity, unique density (no other metal outside the platinum group is as heavy), and the ease by which it could be melted, formed, and measured made it a natural trading medium. Gold gave rise to the concept of money itself: portable, private, and permanent. Gold (and silver) in standardized coins came to replace barter arrangements, and made trade in the Classic period much easier.

http://www.onlygold.com/tutorialpages/historyfs.htm

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RE: New gold-backed currency could be in use next month... - 7/22/2010 5:26:06 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Gold, measured out, became money. Gold's beauty, scarcity, unique density (no other metal outside the platinum group is as heavy), and the ease by which it could be melted, formed, and measured made it a natural trading medium. Gold gave rise to the concept of money itself: portable, private, and permanent. Gold (and silver) in standardized coins came to replace barter arrangements, and made trade in the Classic period much easier.

http://www.onlygold.com/tutorialpages/historyfs.htm


And it was abandoned as money because it no longer worked! Why? The very scarcity that made it money in the first place.

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Profile   Post #: 40
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