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NATURISM UNDER FIRE IN CALIFORNIA - 7/26/2010 6:20:47 PM   
MissCake


Posts: 149
Joined: 9/18/2008
Status: offline 		Perhaps you are not a naturist yourself, but you would like to see it kept safe and legal for those who are.  Your polite letters, e-mails and faxes can make a big difference, even if you don't live in California.  (Naturism is allowing nude recreation in secluded natural settings, where it is kept away from those who would find it objectionable.)

In this time of budget crisis, our state parks lack the resources to enforce bans on nudity in areas which have been considered clothing optional for as long or longer than the State Park system has had jurisdiction.  Help the State Park system put resources on better, more important things like restrooms, public facilities, roads, educational programs, etc.

http://www.naturistaction.org/AlertsAdvisoriesUpdates/ALERTS/CA_Parks_Petition_07-21-10/ca_parks_petition_07-21-10.html

Please help by contacting the parties noted in the action alert above.  Thank you.

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RE: NATURISM UNDER FIRE IN CALIFORNIA - 7/27/2010 10:56:32 AM   
TheHungryTiger


Posts: 454
Joined: 3/9/2004
Status: offline 		Call me clueless here, but under fire from WHO exactly?

The action alert mentions nothing about pending legislation that threatens to close nude beaches. No mention of recent raids or crackdown. No mention of any feminist group yammering in the media of how naturism "objectify women".

The action alert dosent even request a policy change. There are already laws on the books giving permission for certian sections of state parks to be designated as nudist areas. All the action alert is asking is for people to write in and ~remind~ officials that its legal.

Furthermore, a quick google search turns up a whole list of nude beaches that operate legaly and are not undergoing any apperent harasement, raids, or arrests from the government, nor are any being picketed/protested by special intrest groups. Google news turns up nothing recently about california nudism besides an attempt eariler this month to set the guniess book of world records entry for largest skinydip. And as far as I can tell, that event led to no arrests, no protests, and no speaches by any politician saying "there ought to be a law".

Is there something going on behind the scenes that isnt apperent at first glance? Or is this just alarmist whining from people in love with playing the role of the victim? If there is some lawmaker or group that naturalists are 'under fire' from, they are doing a damn poor job of opressing nudists from what I can tell.


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RE: NATURISM UNDER FIRE IN CALIFORNIA - 7/27/2010 5:11:12 PM   
MissCake


Posts: 149
Joined: 9/18/2008
Status: offline 		For more information, visit:  http://www.friendsofsanonofre.org/

Follow the link on the right side of the main page.  You will find a timelime which carefully documents what the issues are.

You may also find additional information at:  http://www.naturistaction.org/

And of course, thank you for contributing to the misinformed post feminist backlash.

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RE: NATURISM UNDER FIRE IN CALIFORNIA - 7/27/2010 6:04:41 PM   
jojoluvr


Posts: 441
Joined: 4/10/2006
Status: offline 		could you give an example of feminists objecting to naturism for its objectification of women? i'm a feminist and have never encountered such a campaign and would question one if i did. feminists tend to focus on more important issues like fair pay, safety in the home and work place, safe places for children, protection of a woman's right to choose what she does with her own body (including, i would say, offering it in submission to a Dom, if she so desires), etc. if there is an example of a feminist campaign, please let me know and i will make every effort to offer a differing feminist viewpoint from those who would deny women the right to choose to be in nature without clothing.

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RE: NATURISM UNDER FIRE IN CALIFORNIA - 7/27/2010 7:50:27 PM   
TheHungryTiger


Posts: 454
Joined: 3/9/2004
Status: offline 		Well, the link does help some. What I have pieced together is thus .....

ONE) Back in the 70s the US park service found a quiet secluded out of the way place far from any populated areas and designated it as a nude beach.

TWO) Thirty years of urbal sprawl happened.

THREE) The US park service decided the beach was now too close to urban living areas. It is no longer secluded enough that the non-nude public wouldn't be impacted. So they remove the nude beach classification.

FOUR) The Naturist Action Committee gets all whiny and butthurt and claim they are ~entitled~ to the beach. They interpret this closing as 'oppression' and file a lawsuit.

FIVE) The Naturist Action Committee files a lawsuit. Its probably important to note that the government did not 'go after' the Naturist Action Committee. It was the Naturist Action Committee who 'went after' the government. The Naturist Action Committee was the plaintiff, not the defendant.

SIX) The Naturist Action Committee wins! Horray! The cort decision swung on the fact that the park service didnt 'go through proper channels'.

SEVEN) The park service appeals the ruling. The 'go through proper channels' aspect wasn't ever actually written law, but rather an internal memo known as the Cahill Policy. Copy of letter here. Since the internal memo was just a guideline and never actually written law, the applet court rules that the park department doesn't have to 'go through proper channels' to make changes in its own internal policies.

EIGHT) The Naturist Action Committee once again goes all whiny and butthurt again claiming they are ~entitled~ to the beach. Without the ability to run to the courts if they dont get their way, they instead adopt a policy of being 'outlaws' and 'freedom fighters'. They go to the beach anyway in violation of the law.

NINE) The police have better things to do so dont bother arresting anyone for public nudity unless there is a direct citizen complaint.

TEN) As noted, due to urban sprawl this place is now not as secluded as it was originally. As such, there eventually IS a citizen complaint. The police throw out a few token-citations so that the neighbors filing the complaint will think the police are doing something.

ELEVEN) The Naturist Action Committee, now fearful of arrests, try to coax the park department into reinstating the nude beach policy. They do this by blitchig at the park service with a write in campaign.

My question still stands from before. Who are you 'under fire' from? As far as I can tell there is no bill working its way through the state senate that would ban all nude beaches. There is no advocacy group protesting or picketing the beaches crammering that "there ought to be a law". Every other nude beach in california is still open for business and doing fine. This is really only about one place and even in your own first post you said naturalism should be "where it is kept away from those who would find it objectionable". And due to 30 years of urban sprawl, that is no longer true of this one location.

In its own odd way, this reminds me of the sub-prime mortgage crisis. Times arent what they used to be, and things change. People who had once lived in a house now have to be removed. But the people who live there think they are ~entitled~ to the house and that the police coming to kick them out is oppression. How can the police be so heartless? Why they have made this their home for years and years and years and now the police are just going to kick them out into the cold? Going to some other house is totally out of the question. They have lived there for years and they DESERVE it, even though its not legally theirs in the first place. So maybee if they go to the government with claims they have the ~right~ to a home, maybee they can claim that being kicked out is them "being denied their rights" and they can stay.

And last, though I know its a minor point, I find it ironically funny that all during the 2008 lawsuit, the main claim by the Naturist Action Committee was that the park department CANT change policy at the drop of a hat any time they feel like it. Theory being that Cahill Policy kept park departments hands tied. But now the main claim of the Naturist Action Committee is that the park department CAN change policy at the drop of a hat any time they feel like it. So they stage a letter writing campaign to "remind" the park department that they have the power to do the very thing that two years ago the Naturist Action Committee was arguing the park department didnt have the power to do.

Fuck do I ever hate activists! :-(


< Message edited by TheHungryTiger -- 7/27/2010 7:55:53 PM >

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RE: NATURISM UNDER FIRE IN CALIFORNIA - 7/27/2010 8:01:48 PM   
TheHungryTiger


Posts: 454
Joined: 3/9/2004
Status: offline
quote:

could you give an example of feminists objecting to naturism for its objectification of women?


Er, that was sort of my point. Such groups dont exist. Nobody is marching or picketing demanding closure of the nude beaches. I agree with you that it is impossible to give any examples, because my who point is that it aint happening. There are no examples to give.

So I ask again ..... Naturalists in california are "under fire" from WHO????? Certainly not feminists nor anyone else that I can find.

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RE: NATURISM UNDER FIRE IN CALIFORNIA - 7/27/2010 9:11:31 PM   
MissCake


Posts: 149
Joined: 9/18/2008
Status: offline 		Yeah, um, pretty much none of that is correct, but you get a gold star for effort and extra credit for not just ignoring the thread in the first place.

One) No, they never did.

Two) Yes, but not near San Onofre's Trail 6 which remains incredibly secluded by the fact that it is just south of a large nuclear power plant and abuts the Marine base.  The area remains remarkably unchanged since the Marine Base gave the land to the State.

Three)  That has not been their stated reasoning in this particular case.

Four)  That's entirely open to interpretation.  No member of the NAC has ever actually whined in my presence, and the only butthurt I have seen is sunburn.

Five)  The park rangers began by posting signs, circulating flyers, and threatening to issue citations.  The NAC and other beachgoers felt it necessary to seek a court injunction after informal talks with the park personnel yielded no compromise, as is our right, of course, as Americans.  State agencies can't actually just do whatever they want.

Six) Yep.  That's how court works.

Seven)  If by "go through proper channels" you mean, have a public hearing before a major policy change, yeah, one court said they broke protocol, and the next court said they didn't - also how court works.

Eight)  It isn't actually against the law - that's the point.  But sometimes laws don't reflect fairness, justice, constitutionality...and it takes people to challenge those laws.

Nine)  I think they have much better things to do than ticket beach goers - and they haven't substantiated the claims of public complaint. But here's the kicker, if "public complaint" is sufficient for them to change 30 odd years of precedent, then why can't the public be heard by the State Parks in support of a policy change that would allow continued and legal use of the beach by naturists?

Ten) Nope, still really really secluded.  You have to hike there on foot - sorry - I haven't measured the distance of the hike, but it's over a mile, and the beach is only visible from the water, by Marine Helicopter or by using binoculars from the high cliffs (high cliffs which aren't accessible to the public).

Eleven)  Yep, we do the patriotic thing by engaging in our political process, directly, actively.

We're not asking to be allowed to remain in a home we failed to pay for.  This is a home we did and do pay for, as the public.  We are asking for creation of solid policies and regulations which allow us to use this part of our home in a way that doesn't infringe on the rights of others, without the fear of arrest or fines.  That's pretty much why I think it's an issue a lot of kinksters and BDSM folk might have an interest in.

Nine)



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RE: NATURISM UNDER FIRE IN CALIFORNIA - 7/28/2010 6:11:55 AM   
TheHungryTiger


Posts: 454
Joined: 3/9/2004
Status: offline 		Ya know, the more I get into this, the more confusing it becomes. I will attempt to go through this just one point at a time. Starting with one

quote:

ONE) Back in the 70s the US park service found a quiet secluded out of the way place far from any populated areas and designated it as a nude beach.


quote:

One) No, they never did.


Ok, if the park service never set aside part of a park to be a nude beach, then how did San Onofre's Trail 6 even become a nude beach?

Oh, and you also get a gold star for effort and extra credit for not comming back with the standard activist line of "Don't you have a heart? People are suffering here and you dont even care??!!!". Your one of the few activists I have ever met that dosent respond to critisim with just a ramping up of the victim-card. And for that I thank you.




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RE: NATURISM UNDER FIRE IN CALIFORNIA - 7/28/2010 8:02:56 AM   
MissCake


Posts: 149
Joined: 9/18/2008
Status: offline 		People just showed up and got naked.  There were many other beaches like that along the south coast once upon a time.  This one remains largely because it is so secluded.  It has been there since the Marine Corps stopped maintaining active control of the land. 

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RE: NATURISM UNDER FIRE IN CALIFORNIA - 7/28/2010 10:55:50 AM   
TheHungryTiger


Posts: 454
Joined: 3/9/2004
Status: offline 		Ok, so far so good. But before moving on to point two, you now got me curious about something .....

That is your take on the Mojave Memorial Cross?

Spot of unused land in a government park. One day a bunch of fundamentalist Christians show up and decided they were going to use the place for what they wanted. For decades they had the run of the place. But because of a court ruling (eventually the supreme court ruled different, but Im refering to the state level court) that said they couldent have free run of the place without some form of permit or aplication, the christians got kicked off the land. They come back with "But we have always used this land!" and "Our freedom to exprtess ourselves is being silenced." and "Other people are trying to wipe out our way of life."

If it is ok for naturalists to 'take over' part of a government park and use it for themselves, would it also be ok for a group of bible-thumpin fundementalist christians to 'take over' part of a government park and use it for themselves?

Or is it that the parks departement has final say over use of the land, and if they one day decided "We have looked the other way long enough. You guys cant just hijack this place for yourselves" then the park departement has every right to kick the trespasers out.


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RE: NATURISM UNDER FIRE IN CALIFORNIA - 10/23/2010 10:00:30 PM   
DMFParadox


Posts: 1405
Joined: 9/11/2007
Status: offline 		I love the post-feminist backlash. :P


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RE: NATURISM UNDER FIRE IN CALIFORNIA - 10/25/2010 2:11:23 AM   
Charles6682


Posts: 1820
Joined: 10/1/2007
From: Saint Pete,FL
Status: offline 		There's a reality show where I live that want's to film 30 day's of people living nude.I wonder how popular this show will become.I guess it depend's on who's getting naked!!!

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RE: NATURISM UNDER FIRE IN CALIFORNIA - 11/7/2010 4:49:31 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

Call me clueless here, but under fire from WHO exactly?


Good question. OP, can you clear this up for us?


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RE: NATURISM UNDER FIRE IN CALIFORNIA - 11/7/2010 5:40:59 AM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline 		I have to wonder if the power plant management filed a complaint about the nude beach from all the union crafts taking breaks on the roof to observe the nude beach. I haven't worked San Onofre in years since they seem to think they don't have to pay enough since you have the priviledge of being in overpriced Southern California. But from the workers that do go there you get the "know where you need to go for a good view? nudge, nudge, say no more...

Tongue firmly in cheek,
Stefan

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