RE: My kind of gun control (Full Version)

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splorff -> RE: My kind of gun control (7/31/2010 3:24:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

They were threatening her life and getting ready to rape her. Why would anyone be the least bit disappointed that she killed one and wounded the other?


I am disappointed the other one is still breathing..




splorff -> RE: My kind of gun control (7/31/2010 3:42:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


  However, one of the few things he and I agree on is that no-one in the UK, including the police, should be armed. 



Get real. Criminals are armed.

They are also fearful of receiving the treatment they so readily mete out to others. Read the previous links. Guns in responsible hands have been proven to reduce crime.




splorff -> RE: My kind of gun control (7/31/2010 3:44:17 AM)

Don't you just hate criminals too !

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

~~just following Panda, haven't read the thread~~
I LOVE THAT WOMAN!! She is my shordurpursav. I don't have a carry permit, but if I did, yeah, I would have done the same damn thing. And after I emptied the magazine into those thugs, I would have pistol whipped them into the next world.

I had a little Republican moment there, sorry. But I mean every word.




splorff -> RE: My kind of gun control (7/31/2010 3:51:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


  The American gun culture is un-grown-up.  It's childish, it's out of date, it's uncivilised and it's shit.  Please get rid of it.  Thank you in advance. [;)]


What nonsense. It is very grown up to defend yourself, your family, friends and even strangers, from those arseholes who would rape kill and torture for a handful of shiny things.

It is cowardly not to defend the weak from criminals.




splorff -> RE: My kind of gun control (7/31/2010 3:54:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus



I despise thug life


Ditto




splorff -> RE: My kind of gun control (7/31/2010 4:12:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda


The 2nd Amendment is never going anywhere, at least not in my lifetime. Poll after poll makes it clear that a huge majority of American citizens support the right to private ownership of firearms.



This is what I do not understand. You have a right to gun ownership, unless their are issues of suitability. So how can it be that some citizens are denied this right simply because they live in a state which proscribes gun ownership. Surely these people are denied their rights. Surely action can be taken against these states.




splorff -> RE: My kind of gun control (7/31/2010 4:33:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

. The Colt .45, with the black parkerized finish


While on holiday in LOS, I went to a gun range. I used a Colt. I think it was a .44 ? /.45? It was an automatic. I took aim and gently squeezed the trigger. The bullet went on its way, then we noticed that the cartridge had jammed in the mechanism. It took a little while to get it out. We discussed the fact that had it happened during a real confrontation, it probably would have cost the owner his life.

We got it up and running again. This time a cartridge was thrown out, but in the wrong direction. It actually hit me in the forehead. It was about this time I changed it for a Smith and Wesson .38. It had a very comfortable rubber grip and was a joy to use. The Colt must have had other issues, because with the S&W my accuracy at 15 yards went up to 92%.

I think I'd settle for this model if I lived stateside.




COINT -> RE: My kind of gun control (7/31/2010 5:01:27 AM)

Weapons safety is very important! But the value of locked up, unloaded firearm? nothing!

To all the haters: sorry but fuck you, every patrol in Afghanistan ( 4 tours!) Rifle in my shoulder, 30+1rnds loaded, 10 mags spare.

Every domestic policing beat? glock 20, rnd chambered, 870 in the cruiser, good to go.

I demand the same of my platoon members.

And now Miss COINT has the computer, as I unhook my sidearm after work. lol




PeonForHer -> RE: My kind of gun control (7/31/2010 5:09:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: splorff


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
However, one of the few things he and I agree on is that no-one in the UK, including the police, should be armed. 


Get real. Criminals are armed.


My bolds.  The full quote was:

quote:

My father is a retired Metropolitan Police Chief Inspector.  He was a qualified marksman when he was in the police service.  He'd come up against armed gangland thugs as well as IRA terrorists, in his career.  He's killed people and a few of his best friends have been killed, too.  Generally, he's so right wing he'd make Hitler look like a limp-wristed liberal.  Me, I'm a lot further left.  However, one of the few things he and I agree on is that no-one in the UK, including the police, should be armed.
 

So, just to be clear, you're saying that my father should 'get real', too?





DomImus -> RE: My kind of gun control (7/31/2010 6:18:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
The full quote was:

quote:

My father is a retired Metropolitan Police Chief Inspector.  He was a qualified marksman when he was in the police service.  He'd come up against armed gangland thugs as well as IRA terrorists, in his career.  He's killed people and a few of his best friends have been killed, too.  Generally, he's so right wing he'd make Hitler look like a limp-wristed liberal.  Me, I'm a lot further left.  However, one of the few things he and I agree on is that no-one in the UK, including the police, should be armed.
 



How do you guarantee that nobody is armed? In theory, I agree with you and your father. Show me a method - in the UK or the USA - which results in absolutely nobody on the street owning a firearm and I am all for it. Gun control measures only affect law abiding people. Ban handguns and all law abiding citizens surrender them. Everyone else keeps theirs. Black market handgun and ammunition sales soar. In the end gun control only serves to strip law abiding citizens of their right to protect themselves and  gives the upper hand to the very people that were the problem in the first place.

If you could succeed at that it would only cover the criminals. What about the "other" bad guys i.e the government? The 2nd Amendment is as much about the people being able to defend themselves against a tyrannical government as it is about their ability to defend themselves against crime - probably much more so given the time it was written and what was going on in the country.






splorff -> RE: My kind of gun control (7/31/2010 7:00:24 AM)

Great post
quote:

ORIGINAL: RedStapler

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Hon, it boils down to this, for me.  The days of the Cold War are gone.  Things have changed massively and we all need to catch up.  The USA is now the hegemon - the only superpower.  The rest of the world needs the USA to be very grown up and very balanced.  The American gun culture is un-grown-up.  It's childish, it's out of date, it's uncivilised and it's shit.  Please get rid of it.  Thank you in advance. [;)]


The fallacy is to believe that outlawing gun ownership would create a gun-free society.  Sadly, criminals are quite good at getting firearms outside of legal channels, smuggled in from everywhere if its not available domestically.  Even common street criminals can illegally obtain weapons fairly easily.  Most citizens cannot purchase a TEC-9 or MAC-10 legally, but street thugs in cities all over the US get them without much difficulty.

But outside of the purely practical matter of getting millions of illegal weapons off the street, there are reasons why US gun culture is what it is.  Let's look at the 4 basic reasons why people own guns.

1. Sport / Hunting / Target shooting
2. Collecting (historic / antique arms)
3. Self defense
4. Preservation of Liberty

I will not focus much on the first two, although there are certainly legitimate needs there.  There are people in America who live in rural places and hunt to feed their families.

For point number 3, outlawing guns means that citizens are completely dependent upon police to protect them from violent crime.  Police cannot be everywhere at once nor respond instantly.  In many rural parts of the country, it could take an hour or more for any help to arrive.  And Americans are loath to be reliant on anyone for anything.

Also, owning a gun is an equalizer in an otherwise unequal world.  A large man may be much stronger physically than a petite woman, but he's not stronger than a bullet.  There are potentially two things stopping a man from imposing his will on a woman.

1. Threat of the use of force against him by the state.
2. Threat of the use of force against him by his victim.

The man can more easily escape #1.  Once the crime is done, he can sneak away in the night before the police are alerted.  He may get caught or he may not.  Either way, the violence against his victim is done.  Only if the potential victim has a means exerting force on the perpetrator can the crime be prevented.

Now, let us examine reason #4.  You may consider it an anachronism.  I certainly do not.  This is another very important reason that our Constitution forbids the government from outlawing guns.  Doing so would give the government a monopoly on power.  If a government becomes tyrannical or completely corrupt, the last recourse of the population is to overthrow that government, and this is much harder if not impossible to do if the populace is unarmed.  In order to keep the government honest, the founders wanted to make sure that the people would always hold ultimate power, that the threat of revolution would ALWAYS be there.  This scenario may seem unlikely today (although a small minority believes it is very likely) but all the same I would rather have a gun and never have to use it than not have one and find the gestapo knocking at my door.

There's a reason that the JFPO calls itself "America's Most Aggressive Defender of Firearms Ownership"




splorff -> RE: My kind of gun control (7/31/2010 7:25:43 AM)

I dont know about your father. What I am saying is this, the police cannot protect us. What they mostly do is clean up after the crime. To protect ourselves from armed criminals, we ourselves need to be armed. If you wish to take fists to a gun fight thats your choice good luck !

I would opt for a S&W .38, maybe a Glock with a wide ejection port. Thats what I want for xmas.

I would be happy to try a few other options first. Capitol punishment with prosecution aggressively seeking the death penalty for heinous crimes would certainly go some way to reducing crime.





quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: splorff


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
However, one of the few things he and I agree on is that no-one in the UK, including the police, should be armed. 


Get real. Criminals are armed.


My bolds.  The full quote was:

quote:

My father is a retired Metropolitan Police Chief Inspector.  He was a qualified marksman when he was in the police service.  He'd come up against armed gangland thugs as well as IRA terrorists, in his career.  He's killed people and a few of his best friends have been killed, too.  Generally, he's so right wing he'd make Hitler look like a limp-wristed liberal.  Me, I'm a lot further left.  However, one of the few things he and I agree on is that no-one in the UK, including the police, should be armed.
 

So, just to be clear, you're saying that my father should 'get real', too?






splorff -> RE: My kind of gun control (7/31/2010 7:28:29 AM)

Great post
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus



How do you guarantee that nobody is armed? In theory, I agree with you and your father. Show me a method - in the UK or the USA - which results in absolutely nobody on the street owning a firearm and I am all for it. Gun control measures only affect law abiding people. Ban handguns and all law abiding citizens surrender them. Everyone else keeps theirs. Black market handgun and ammunition sales soar. In the end gun control only serves to strip law abiding citizens of their right to protect themselves and  gives the upper hand to the very people that were the problem in the first place.

If you could succeed at that it would only cover the criminals. What about the "other" bad guys i.e the government? The 2nd Amendment is as much about the people being able to defend themselves against a tyrannical government as it is about their ability to defend themselves against crime - probably much more so given the time it was written and what was going on in the country.







LadyHibiscus -> RE: My kind of gun control (7/31/2010 8:07:04 AM)

Hey! None of you are listening to Rho!




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: My kind of gun control (7/31/2010 10:09:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Hey! None of you are listening to Rho!


Wait a minute - I'm listening! Why do you think I stopped posting? If we stay strictly on topic, there's nothing more to talk about! Thread's over, unless we all want to just sit here repeating ourselves.




PeonForHer -> RE: My kind of gun control (7/31/2010 10:37:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImusHow do you guarantee that nobody is armed? In theory, I agree with you and your father. Show me a method - in the UK or the USA - which results in absolutely nobody on the street owning a firearm and I am all for it. Gun control measures only affect law abiding people. Ban handguns and all law abiding citizens surrender them. Everyone else keeps theirs. Black market handgun and ammunition sales soar. In the end gun control only serves to strip law abiding citizens of their right to protect themselves and  gives the upper hand to the very people that were the problem in the first place.


Everybody will be unarmed!  If you get killed, simply take your body back to the shop where you bought and your money will be refunded without quibble! 

Only joking.  I don't think I'll bother to replay arguments that I'm sure both sides in this can replay much more skillfully than I. 

quote:

If you could succeed at that it would only cover the criminals. What about the "other" bad guys i.e the government? The 2nd Amendment is as much about the people being able to defend themselves against a tyrannical government as it is about their ability to defend themselves against crime - probably much more so given the time it was written and what was going on in the country.


Yes . . . I remember reading about that rationale for the existence of the 2nd Amendment.  Are gun-owners generally left-wing, anti-government sorts of people then?  Also, I hadn't noticed than when the US government had got heavy-handed with any give group of citizens in US history that those US citizens (say, black people in the Southern states) were able to defend themselves all that well.  

Still, this is US history - and it's steeped in a culture that seems peculiar to the USA.   It's certainly a culture to which I have trouble relating.  I think I'll leave this argument to you guys. 




PeonForHer -> RE: My kind of gun control (7/31/2010 11:02:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: splorff

I dont know about your father. What I am saying is this, the police cannot protect us. What they mostly do is clean up after the crime. To protect ourselves from armed criminals, we ourselves need to be armed. If you wish to take fists to a gun fight thats your choice good luck !


The chances of anyone pulling a gun on either of us, in the UK, are so remote that the question of the police needing to protect us hardly comes into it.  I could tour the country my whole life with my fists rolled and never even see a gun, never mind a gun fight!

quote:

ORIGINAL: splorff
I would be happy to try a few other options first. Capitol punishment with prosecution aggressively seeking the death penalty for heinous crimes would certainly go some way to reducing crime.



It was realised way back in the 1830s, when hundreds of offences that had carried the death penalty were wiped out, that this wasn't the case.   Here in the UK, at least, the statistics haven't supported that view.  One of the arguments was that it was considered a bad idea to have too many criminals believe that they had everything to lose by getting caught - therefore, it was better to kill a copper rather than get caught by one. If you went ready to kill a copper, then you were of course able to kill anyone else, too.  Result: crime, particularly violent crime, gets ratcheted up.

Still, that's another argument for another thread.







Sorry folks - I appear to have kicked off a little something here that people feel to be irrelevant to the subject of the OP.  That's maybe because, from my distanced position in the UK, most questions around the subject of guns seem to bunch together.  This appears to be pretty much an American debate.  I'll be happy to leave it to you all.




LadyHibiscus -> RE: My kind of gun control (7/31/2010 11:04:54 AM)

I have never seen a gunfight myself, or had one pulled on me, thank heavens! But a gal working at one of our offices (in the hood) got to see one up close and personal, shot guy falling against the plate glass, all that. She refused to return to that office.




VideoAdminRho -> RE: My kind of gun control (7/31/2010 4:36:37 PM)

Having perused the comments after my first post, I came to the conclusion that what I said probably appeared unneccessarily harsh, even though it was not meant that way (I even used a smilie, darn it [:(]). I also decided that I may have erred with my post, and asked a fellow mod to take a look at this thread. We have concluded that, since the OP is vague as to what the topic is, general discussion of guns, gun ownership, the 2nd Amendment, and even the joys of venison will be allowed.

Mea culpa to all, and thanks for keeping your objections civil and not kicking this newbie mod's butt too hard. [:)]




zenny -> RE: My kind of gun control (7/31/2010 4:45:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: splorff

I dont know about your father. What I am saying is this, the police cannot protect us. What they mostly do is clean up after the crime. To protect ourselves from armed criminals, we ourselves need to be armed. If you wish to take fists to a gun fight thats your choice good luck !


The chances of anyone pulling a gun on either of us, in the UK, are so remote that the question of the police needing to protect us hardly comes into it.  I could tour the country my whole life with my fists rolled and never even see a gun, never mind a gun fight!

quote:

ORIGINAL: splorff
I would be happy to try a few other options first. Capitol punishment with prosecution aggressively seeking the death penalty for heinous crimes would certainly go some way to reducing crime.



It was realised way back in the 1830s, when hundreds of offences that had carried the death penalty were wiped out, that this wasn't the case.   Here in the UK, at least, the statistics haven't supported that view. 



You really are too funny. I wish we could sit down and discuss this over tea (I'm not being sarcastic). Either way guess what did go up and still continues to in the UK. Murder. In fact, last I checked, when you take out the suicide statistic that only appears in US 'murder' rates you (UK) have a higher murder rate per capita than the good ole' US.

Ponder on this - "Guns are the great equalizer"   I'll give you a hint, it shatters "Might makes right" (which the UK has devolved into)




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