Iran - You Make the Call...

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Mercnbeth -> Iran - You Make the Call... (4/18/2006 7:37:11 AM)
April 28th is the deadline for Iran to respond to the UN. Anyone confident of how that institution will deal with the situation? The Iranian President has vowed to destroy Israel and anyone else who attempts to get in the way of his nuclear objective. He is on record confirming that he has recruited and obtained 100's of suicide bombers to carry out retaliatory attacks all over the world. Today in Iran is "Army Day". President Ahmadinejad reviewed a parade of men and missiles standing in front of the mausoleum of the late revolutionary Ayatollah Khomeini. He was elected to the presidency under a stated policy of wiping Israel off the map. For this exercise, as the result of a bloodless coup, YOU are in charge of the US. What is your stated policy? Do you take any action? What is your "line in the sand" statement to President Ahmadinejad? If he keeps his campaign promise concerning Israel does that generate any different action?

mnottertail -> RE: Iran - You Make the Call... (4/18/2006 7:47:26 AM)
Let Isreal determine their own policy and response. If any attack is made by Iran, Join in with Isreal to wipe them off the map. If a preemptive strike is made by Isreal... then I will have cause for great pause. Many people say they will kick your ass, but few are willing to actually do it. Rhetoric is no reason for reactionism. Retribution needs Revenge. Ron (p.s. Mercnbeth, I know I owe you an answer to your mail. Alotta life gets in the way and I have been way to crabby to give it the considerate response it deserves, for this, I am wholeheartedly ashamed and sincerely apologize. Ron again)

JohnWarren -> RE: Iran - You Make the Call... (4/18/2006 8:10:52 AM)
There was a large and growing opposition to the fundies in Iran until Bush blessed them with an issue that allowed them to characterize opposition as "pro US." (Think Joe McCarthy in a turban) I'd make nice while letting the leaders know we'd hold them personally and lethally responsible for any actions outside of Iran's borders. Teddy had a nice phrase for it: "Talk softly and carry a big stick" which could well translate as "when he's aware of the laser dot on his burnoose, you don't have to yell."

mnottertail -> RE: Iran - You Make the Call... (4/18/2006 8:14:05 AM)
You have such an excellent turn of phrase John. "...Think Joe McCarthy in a Turban..." I am amused by that chacterization and will carry it with me for quite a while. Ron

ArtCatDom -> RE: Iran - You Make the Call... (4/18/2006 3:33:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth April 28th is the deadline for Iran to respond to the UN. Anyone confident of how that institution will deal with the situation? The Iranian President has vowed to destroy Israel and anyone else who attempts to get in the way of his nuclear objective. He is on record confirming that he has recruited and obtained 100's of suicide bombers to carry out retaliatory attacks all over the world. Today in Iran is "Army Day". President Ahmadinejad reviewed a parade of men and missiles standing in front of the mausoleum of the late revolutionary Ayatollah Khomeini. He was elected to the presidency under a stated policy of wiping Israel off the map. For this exercise, as the result of a bloodless coup, YOU are in charge of the US. What is your stated policy? Do you take any action? What is your "line in the sand" statement to President Ahmadinejad? If he keeps his campaign promise concerning Israel does that generate any different action? Basic policy: Iran is a country with split level of government. The elections were notably rigged for President. I would recognize the legislature of Iran as holding the legitimate power of government and hold an official policy that the Presidency is held under an illegal coup. In other words, I would only recognize diplomats appointed by the legislature from that country. Any sent from the President of Iran would be detained and deported. Any sent from that President who have notable records of international law violations would be offered to the UN and related tribunal bodies before simple deportation. Actions: I would quickly work to secure oil and coal supply lines with promised minimums from South America and Asia. I would try to find consensus points with other nations and found a political and economic coalition to deal with Iran on that common ground. I would direct policy advisors to research the most effective tools to place pressure on Iran. I would direct policy advisors to research the current up-to-date political landscape (or maybe minefield) of Near Eastern politics so we have reasonable prejudgements of reastions to a variety of actions. I would put the intelligence community to work not on military aims, but to find the greatest economic and political weaknesses of Iran. After all that, I would place obsenely high tariffs on oil of Iranian origin (under trade exceptions for sanctions). I would tariff goods using secondary sanction rules on industrial products from countries with significant energy resources drawn from Iran. I would tax-exempt oil, coal and other energy products produced in our own hemisphere to offset the price rises sure to come from such actions. I would use other straightforward means to destabilize to political system and economy of Iran based on the analysis of the above direct research. Line in the sand Statement: You certainly have every right to persue peaceful nuclear power under the Nonproliferation Treaty. However, you must abide by its terms and conditions, most importantly allowing full and free inspections of such facilities. We cannot accept the possibility of further nuclear arms proliferation. North Korea has set the tone for this political impasse. If you persist in violating the terms of the treaty, or choose to withdraw from the treaty, we will consider that you are seeking to develop nuclear weapons a priori. What occurs from this point forward is entirely in your hands. If you wish for us to treat you respectfully and without prejudice, respect your obligations to nonproliferation. Allow inspections and your peaceful nuclear energy efforts will not be impeded. Reject inspections and we will use whatever means are necessary to prevent the spread of nuclear arms. Israel: Israel can be said to be a nation formed by an illegal land grab contrary to international law. It can also be said to be persisting in illegal aggression and occupation contrary to countless UN resolutions. Until Israel pulls itself back into the appropriate realm of lawful activity, I would not aid them if they were invaded. In fact, I would even cut off all military and other aid until they complied with such resolutions. meow

Lordandmaster -> RE: Iran - You Make the Call... (4/18/2006 4:27:41 PM)
I'm waiting for one the conservative know-it-all TV commentators to acknowledge that this whole situation has been exacerbated by the war in Iraq. Everyone has seen that we're stretched to the breaking point, and now all the little rogue nations are choosing this moment to make their big move. The only reason why this is an issue is that someone in Iran has calculated that we're not going to be able to stop them this time.

mnottertail -> RE: Iran - You Make the Call... (4/18/2006 5:00:38 PM)
Well them same k-i-a's could acknowledge that the bruhaha of WMD found it's roots in posturing by Saddam when Iran began leaning and leering at him some short time after the Mother of All Wars and he claimed nuke capability to the Iranians to disquiet their ne'er do well courting. We knew he was bullshitting then, having soundly spanked his ass...when indeed at that time he should have been tried for waltzing into kuwait. All he did was lob a couple scuds at a couple apartments in Isreal (and I suppose that (it looks like it to me, anyway) was the deal we made with isreal to keep a cool tool that we would let them do a little strongarming around the garden of eden without harrassing them overmuch). Now Iran, who is the realest of the problems all along (and we went out of our way to make it so) is now publicly walking the path that led to the invasion of Iraq. Certain cold logic tells me that they don't have a viable nuke capability. So, how can their public comments to the globe possibly be true, or have a purpose? I can consider several scenarios some ranging from the Animal House mentality of we need to make an incredibly futile gesture to an Armegeddon style party like it's 1999. We need to get some U2's over there and dig up Adlai Stevenson and give him the dirty pictures this time to exhibit in the galleries of the UN. (some of the old geezers and the well read here know exactly what I am talking about...it can be done, don't hand me that bad intelligence asswipe and show a picture of a cropduster at show and tell). But to the point and topic of the OP: The decline and fall of the American Empire... If a man lives it is a certainty he will die. Nearly everybody wants to be king of the mountain. From our rise to eminence the seeds are sown for our destruction. The only thing we are negotiating here is how fast and furiously we are gonna captain this bobsled straight to hell. Ron edit: wrong OP but same-same.

ScooterTrash -> RE: Iran - You Make the Call... (4/18/2006 5:27:54 PM)
*Luckily I wouldn’t have to make these decisions, but this might be something close.* What is your stated policy? As to the nuclear threat, for the time being let NATO rules and standards apply, inspections, etc. The threat is not immediate so even under non-compliance there is time to determine alternative action. Do you take any action? No, not directly and certainly not immediately. Project a serious concern and displeasure with the current events and statements. Initially threaten trade sanctions, should the situation deteriorate, enact them. By all means do the homework in case there is need for a future attack however, also keep the military in the area on alert and build up forces in the area, but not so much that it’s terribly obvious. What is your "line in the sand" statement to President Ahmadinejad? Aggression to the US or it’s allies will be met with aggression. If he keeps his campaign promise concerning Israel does that generate any different action? No, not initially. Israel is capable of mounting a devastating retaliatory blow, perhaps even nuclear. At some point we have to let them stand as a nation on their own and if it escalates out of hand it would be better to be blamed for not getting involved soon enough, than to be in the thick of it and an immediate target.

Termyn8or -> RE: Iran - You Make the Call... (4/18/2006 7:21:46 PM)
Y'know, when the US minded their own business this was not a problem. Who the fuck are we to to tell all these countries whether they are allowed to be able to defend themselves ? Does anyone ask us to give up our nukes ? None of those people fucked with us until we fucked with them. Think back. The Shah of Iran was a torturing fanatical dictator, and Jimmy Carter gave him sancuary after he lost a coup, BY THE PEOPLE (mainly kinda). The new powers that be siezed the embassy. The US started a program of "helping" Iraq and actually supported Saddam Hussein. In the ensuing years what has happened is very intriguing and even escapes my complete comprehension. I understand alot of it, but some things will never add up. Israel was always the impetus for our meddling in the middle east. If you look at the big picture, seeing their goals, you get alot more of the picture. They want to be the sole nuclear power in the region, and they will spill every ounce of American blood to get it done. How do they have that influence ? International banks. Of course the pricks didn't teach our government very well, letting China have mny many billions in US securities. I thought US securities for for US People ! China could cripple our gov real quick, and some international analysts believe she is simply waiting for the right time. China and Israel both have better Navies than us, smaller, but lots of subs with nukes. So does mother Russia. They have planes and missiles that are clearly superior to ours. Moskit 2 missiles (Sunburn) are indefensible with our technology. With all the toe stepping we been doing, we have no idea who are real allies are, if we have any at all. Most are bought and paid for governments, and we have not had a great support of the PEOPLE of our allies for a long time. This even includes a piece of Europe. Now since we did so well in Iraq, (L O L) let's go see Iran, a country with easily ten times the military of pre-invasion Iraq. From what I heard, the Sunnis didn't like Saddam, but are being quiet right now, hoping for a chance. There are Sunnis in Iran. Piss them off and they might unite against us. Now what. If they are stoopid enough to go into Iran, they will have the effect of promoting unity among the Semites at the very least, perhaps uniting the entire Arab population against us. OK, fine, they are not quite what China and Russia would be if they ganged up on us, at least in our meddling there. But they have help. Russia invited Iran to do nuclear research on Russian soil for whatever reason. (about three years ago, I don't know if they took them up on it). Is that something that an ally of the Neo-Cons would do ? I don't think we can count on Russia in the middle east, for one Putin cannot stand Israel and has "had words" with Ariel Sharon. Words that changed occupational policy in the West Bank the next day. They are probably not too happy about the cold war either. The only reason we won is that we got a bigger international credit card. Funny, Russia has plenty of natural resources, better planes and missiles than us, and I am sure, some nukes. They strangely have not made alot of noise lately. Could they be up to something with China ? Don't take that to the bank, but it is a possibility. They both are keping their mouths shut but trading weapons and shit. I don't think this is a good sign for the Neo-Cons. They are after absolute conquest of the middle east and it is going to bankrupt our country so much worse that even those we owe will not be able to help us anymore. And believe me, Israel, with it's current policies, is going to stab us in the back. Now that alot of the manufacturing has been moved out of this country, if the dollar falls we won't even be able to afford ammo ! We will be forced to nationalize most of industry and provide a new fiat currency, there will be no other way out. The pressures that come to bear will be very similar to what Hitler had at the beginning. A wheelbarrow full of money needed to buy a postage stamp. Certain people however, had all kinds of money, Swiss bank accounts and stuff. All money stolen from the People. The Founding Fathers knew who they were, the moneylenders, the userers. In 1913 we got fucked, soooooooooo bad. I lost my greed, and I am glad. I used to be exceedingly shrewd and sometimes nasty in business. Somehow I managed to spend about $60,000 a year working about 25 hours a week back in the 80s. I had no credit at the time, didn't need it. I looked at everything as a business opportunity. I didn't owe back then, people owed me. So I know how these people are even though I don't know them. I was almost one of them. I lost my greed in later years and now I get by. In short, I know how they are. So, make the call ? YES, by all means go into Iran, stomp their ass, if you can. If you can't, don't give me a rifle, I will do an about face and attack. Yes. Only the top officers though, the ones who's kids are not in the military. I think sending the politicians' kids to go do the dirty work would be a big step in the right direction. Somebody has a thread "Should military service be required for all......", let me finish that statement, ALL government employees and contractors' kids. The rest of us are safe. SEND YOUR OWN FIRST ! You believe that the false prophets (Zionists) are the word of your God ? Well, let your own Sons be a part of the Holy experience. One last thing, we are not held to Israel by religion, it is money and ultimate power they want. In the lyrics of Micheal Stanley, a one time sorta famous musician and now radio DJ, "The Lord uses the good ones, the bad ones use the Lord". Figure it out, the Bible is a vast document, one can quote from here and there out of context and prove damnear anythiung. I have seen it, and arguments "YEAH, but Luke whatever says ....." , "But Matthew..... says". That is not even the beginning. Way too much going on in the way of interpretation, much like they do with the Constitution. All of the documents protecting the common Man are fucked up by interpretation. Consider these words: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Note the placement of the comma. Before you even do that, reconsider the words "the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed". Just how much clearer does it need to be? The reason for this clause in the founding document(s) of this country is explained before the comma. "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state," sums it up quite well. The Founding Fathers intended for We The People to have enough military might among ourselves, ot "alter or abolish" the government when and if it no longer serves the People. They have construed it to mean 'we primitive assholes had no idea what was going to be invented in the future, so you can just forget about THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THE CONSTITUTION". Yes, GWB, you can take Iran easy, just like Iraq. See how easy it was, you sat in your chair as thousands died. BTW, I didn't see any of your grandchildren there. Were they sick or what ? Can't at least one of your grandkids be a pushbutton hero like your Dad ? Just sit up in a plane and push buttons, even on a country that has no airforce. Don't they at least have that dismal amount of bravery ? Or are they scared that a coward, suicide bomber might actually give their life to take a few of you MFs out ? Friends, these are strong words, I support our troops and hope they all come home safe, Friday would be good. The truth needs to be known. The US is in the wrong here, and there is no easy way out now, thanks to,,,,,,,, the government. We can't even hold Iraq, now Iran ? Go right ahead. If this is to be your armageddon, so be it. Those people did not fuck with us until we fucked with them, and actually it all started during WW2. The way things are going I almost think the wrong side won. Sad now, but Hitler was at least loyal to his followers. We fight and die and they take the money. Gas should be about 40 cents a gallon. They're getting it for free !, yes they are. They did at least until 2004-5, Haliburton forgot to install the measuring devices. Cool huh. Rant over, it tired me out and I missed my dinner. Going to order something. Be well. T

FangsNfeet -> RE: Iran - You Make the Call... (4/18/2006 8:33:52 PM)
If they want nuclear then I say we should give it to them with a good old fashioned A bomb droped on there capitol.

Lordandmaster -> RE: Iran - You Make the Call... (4/18/2006 8:53:49 PM)
I'm pretty sure we don't even have A-bombs anymore.

JohnWarren -> RE: Iran - You Make the Call... (4/18/2006 9:11:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster I'm pretty sure we don't even have A-bombs anymore. I think the W54 I worked with is still around a few generations later. It was a single stage unit, two or so feet long, one foot in diameter and put out 0.1 kiloton. It's major advantage was that it was manportable and could even descend with its operator using a standard T10 chute. The air dropable and missile deployable are generally multi stage but they can be set to a range of yields dependent on the target . The main flaws in all these weapons is that they are not selective and using them will kill many more people than the ones you should want to kill.

michaelGA -> RE: Iran - You Make the Call... (4/18/2006 9:25:44 PM)
quite simply, launch everything we have and remove them completely, end of problem

Lordandmaster -> RE: Iran - You Make the Call... (4/18/2006 10:04:26 PM)
I don't think the W54 has been around for decades, but maybe I'm wrong. Edited to add: You worked on the W54? Weren't they manufactured in 1962 or something? quote: ORIGINAL: JohnWarren I think the W54 I worked with is still around a few generations later.

DelightMachine -> RE: Iran - You Make the Call... (4/18/2006 10:36:18 PM)
quote: Y'know, when the US minded their own business this was not a problem When the ideology is Jihadist, you don't have to be interfering with them for them to come after you. After all, the very definition of terrorism involves innocent lives. The children killed, and for that matter, all or almost all of the civilians killed on 9/11 were obviously minding their own business. You don't really think the terrorists thought otherwise, do you? As for "interfering" with their nasty, despot-ruled countries, we had to do some of that because we had to keep them out of the hands of that other nasty, despotic regime, the Soviet Union. But it doesn't matter how we got into this. The question is where do we go from here.

DelightMachine -> RE: Iran - You Make the Call... (4/18/2006 11:01:07 PM)
Iran is not the Soviet Union or China -- deterrence won't do because 1. They may not be entirely rational now or they may not in the future, 2. They may think they can get away with passing on a WMD to a terrorist group who will deliver it to one of our cities. Yes, I know there are defensive measures we've taken and we can take more -- do you trust so many lives with them? I don't. I say kill this at the source. We should let diplomacy play out for as long as it's prudent. I have no idea exactly how long that is and neither do any of you. Maybe our government does, but it's very possible they don't. Very, very possible they don't. I hope they decide to give us all a very wide margin of error on the prudent side, which means attack well before you think they're capable of putting one of these things together. From what I've heard, their nuclear infrastructure is widely dispersed, probably with parts even our spies don't know about, partly well underground, making me wonder if we even have the capability to bomb some of that infrastructure even with our nukes. I have absolutely no doubt that Iran would pass along nukes to terrorists who would want to smuggle them here, and I have absolutely no doubt that that strategy would eventually be successful. Perhaps components would be smuggled in here and put together somewhere in the United States -- there are a thousand possible scenarios that we can't do much about, even with the most competent government in the world. The choice, I think, will eventually boil down to attacking them sooner, before they can put these things together, or attacking them later, after one of our cities is attacked. Either way, it's all going to be an ash-strewn mess. 99.9 percent of the time saying "It's us or them" comes from someone who is lying or ignorant, so I really hate to say it, but this could be that one time in a thousand where it fits. I think we'd bomb every site to smithereens that we even think might be used for their nuclear program. At about the same time, and probably all at once to prevent them from taking to the bomb shelters, we'd want to bomb the secret police headquarters or major centers (the ones we know about), and I'd recommend bombing the homes of the top leadership, at least the more militant ones in the top leadership. That involves killing off many of the clerics, and many of them live in the holy city of Qum (if I remember right). We'll have trouble with the Iraqis over that. I'd want to make the country as chaotic as possible in the hope that the government will be weakened enough to be overthrown immediately or later. That government is very unpopular among the Iranians, although the Iranians are probably going to shift their anger swiftly from their own despots to our government. Can't be helped. Third-most important target, for me, would be their military. Maybe we take out bridges, electricity plants, depending on just how chaotic we want to make it. It will also give them something more important to spend money on than a nuclear arms program. The Mideast will be like a hornet's nest -- for a while. And the price of oil will shoot up into the stratusphere. And we'll save many lives -- many AMERICAN lives by doing it. So I think that's the best course and I think that's the one we're going to take, provided diplomacy fails, which I think will happen.

Termyn8or -> RE: Iran - You Make the Call... (4/18/2006 11:24:13 PM)
You said: When the ideology is Jihadist, you don't have to be interfering with them for them to come after you. OK, when have we NOT fucked with them ? They have been treated like whaleshit since the end of WW2, and I don't mean in a nice way. Yes we came to them. If you get some international news instead of the TV you will find Osama Bin Laden's statement. We are not secure, you will not be secure. Our support of the treatment of the Palestinians by Israel is condemned by the UN. Israel is no longer happy with the UN, and called for it's disbandment about 3 years ago. England gave Palestine to the Jews, who are ironically no longer in control of the country. Now there are these Palestinians, but they don't seem to matter. The Balfour Declaration was done as a favor to European Jews who invented, and then broke a code for the English military during WW2. What a scam. Alot of people know they broke the code, but it is very little publicized that they invented it. Evidence exists, although I can't prove it conclusively right now, I might be able to soon. It is all a scam, GWB really wasn't in the classroom when 9/11 happened. Don't bother to check it out, Micheal Moore is an asshole and needs to be shot. How dare he say such things in the land of the free and the home of the brave ? Kill him. Kill him now. He is a conspiracy theorist and must go. Know why ? Because we got a "partnership" between government, big business and the media, hell bent on screwing us out of everything. Tell me they don't get richer while we get poorer. But OK, calm down now, you don't need to call Washington D.C. because it is a partnership, not a conspiracy. Always remember that. Do some research, we started it buddy, and I don't think we can finish it. T PS, it really does matter VERY MUCH how we got here. T

MsMacComb -> RE: Iran - You Make the Call... (4/18/2006 11:53:10 PM)
On this side of the ocean we have a fundamentalist regime in charege that is swayed by its version of clerics and Mullahs, (Robertson, Fallwell, Dobson etc) with an agenda to force the rest of the world to adopt its version of "religion and democracy". That would be BushCo for anyone thats a bit daft or slow. On the other side of the ocean we have the same with the only real difference being they are Muslims. Occupied Palestine well, lets see, they've been killing, murdering, segregating, isolating, forcing a form of economic genocide on these poor people for 60 odd years. How anyone can blame Muslims, Arabs etc for being pissed about the way we have shafted, invaded, sided against them for decades is beyond me. If I was Iran or any similiar nation after what BushCo has done to Iraq I would be stockpiling "nukes" too. {Edited Portion Addendum} If people havent taken the time to read Project For A New American Century, then they arent able to grasp the comparisions.

MistressDREAD -> RE: Iran - You Make the Call... (4/18/2006 11:54:39 PM)
quote: nuclear nuclear is not the threat to the USA. Biochemical has far more reaching distructing ability then a nuclear threat and has many hotspots right now that are active for such actions besides being able to be distributed and set off far more easily in many places at once for a far more outreaching threat. USA Lazzzerrr techiees can zap any nuclear set off long befor a fireing is close to Our air space. I think its all a Arabic conspiracy to get them all to kill each other off. LOL Have you ever been to a bikers party ? two guys get gruffie and start to swinging and hit the wrong persons and those persons start to swinging till pretty soon everyone is swinging and getting hit till all are knocked out, sept that quite non assuming person sitting in the corner sipping his beer watching all the fools go at it till none are left standing. One thing Ill say, When I have to stand up and fight, I want the person standing next to Me to be a fighter too. The current Prez is a fighter, Ill bet My glass a beer on Him rather then what Ive seen poppin up wanting His place He is standin in to watch em take a seat all confused and shit. watching a few of em tempting to talk to other prezzies of other countrys was a laugh at best. At any rate Id rather have the fight in anyone elses front yard then My Own, thats for sure! I think the Prezz an Our Government is setting up this place for the next such situation hence the biggie on INS issues all of a suddent. (remembers american asian in camps in the USA not so awfully long ago......)

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Iran - You Make the Call... (4/19/2006 12:07:57 AM)
hmmmm, my dreams have come true I rule the US. :) I'd just delay and let the UN handle it for now(of course pushing in the direction of UN sanctioned military action). Iran is intent on nuclear weapons, and it is better to let the UN come to the decision that Iran is a imminent danger to the world than a unilateral US strike.Iran won't have nuclear capability in the near-term. In the mean time focus on Iraq and building up the military structure and planning for such a invansion. To me fallout with Iran is inevitable they are hell bent on getting nukes. Very few nations think that is a good idea. In this case it is very different than Iraq, in that it is not simply guess work leading to such a conclusion but stated government intent(Iran). So, they will either back down unlikely, ignore and continue their pursuit, or most likely do a stop and go in order to try to milk the situation for what it's worth, and slowly build the nuclear potential. To answer the Isreal question. If they attack Israel, we attack. It's simple they are a ally and that's what you do when a ally is attacked. To not do so would weaken our other alliances, and nations would question how much our alliance was worth. Either way whether it be 1 month or 5 years, barring a dramatic shift in Irans nuclear ambitions(doubtful) and trifling, we will be at war with them, and I'd guess most western nations will be as well via the UN.

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