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Taxus Holdem: Internet Gambling - 7/29/2010 7:49:58 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline 		Desperate for revenue for the impoverished United States and eschewing offers from Willie Nelson and Bruce Springsteen to promote a Gov-aid Concert to be simulcast worldwide on Orly Taitz’ birthday, The House Financial Services Committee approved regulation and a tax on internet gambling in an opening bid to overturn the current prohibition. Taxes could yield $42 B over ten years.

Replying to moral criticism, Committee Chairman Barney Frank said it is not the Federal Government’s purpose to prevent people from spending their money foolishly.

Despite the 2006 Prohibition passed by the lame duck Republican Congress, illegal internet gambling is thriving in 2010 just as bootlegging did in 1926.

I’m okay with Barney’s Libertarian Philosophy on keeping the government out of deciding how people wish to spend their money, and especially where they put their genitals. But I wonder how the tax thing would work. How would the IRS know I was gambling from my computer? Would they require my Internet Provider to cough up a list of all internet addresses that connected to a gambling site? Then what? Would they demand all users to file a declaration form for winnings/loses???

Here comes the slippery slope argument. Needing more money and still brushing away offers by Willie and Bruce, would the Govt then be tempted to apply the same taxing principle to internet porn, youtube views, email uploads, or any other recreational use of the internet? Maybe Fetish sites??

In a landmark bootlegging/wiretap case of 1928, Olmstead v. United States, Justice Louis Brandeis argued in dissent that the makers of our Constitution “… sought to protect Americans in their beliefs, their thoughts, their emotions and their sensations. They conferred, as against the Government, the right to be let alone -- the most comprehensive of rights, and the right most valued by civilized men.”

Seems to me that taxing what I do on the internet is an intrusion that violates this basic right to privacy. On the other hand, the Poker Players Alliance has been pushing for the new law and tax in order to restore legal internet gambling.

Is legal internet gambling worth having the IRS peeking over your shoulder? Doesn’t the whole thing smack of an unwarranted violation of internet privacy? First the prohibition of online gambling and now its restoration with taxation? Is internet gambling worth the tax hassle and should we worry about the slippery slope argument?

Canadians and Brits please voice your opinions as well.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/29/us/politics/29gamble.html?_r=1&hpw

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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.
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RE: Taxus Holdem: Internet Gambling - 7/29/2010 8:02:46 PM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		I don't gamble so I don't care one way or another

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RE: Taxus Holdem: Internet Gambling - 7/29/2010 11:01:50 PM   
Brain


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If you win gambling the company will pay you money and they report it to the IRS just like a bank reports the interest you earn on the money you have in the bank.

If you don’t report it on your taxes the IRS will know and mention it when you get your reply to the tax return you file. You can get fined for not reporting income and late payment charges.

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RE: Taxus Holdem: Internet Gambling - 7/29/2010 11:39:29 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Looka here Vincenso, whena you gamble you go down the stairs and go into a smoke filled room. The REALa players will not play holdem, they play five card draw and ina some time maybe stud, even seven card. You takea your coat off anda they see your gun, and they all got one.

I'll not play holdem becaude the game is over 90% luck, and less than 10% skill.

Real poker can bring real skill to the table, for those with skill.

If you ever want to learn real gambling, play jacks or better and later trips to win. Nothing wild. Then you move on to five card stud and then seven card stud, You can make alot of money in seven card stud and that was what got me my gambling diploma. My Dojo had a strog full house showing and saw nothiing of me. A had a three on top, what nobody knew was that I had three more of them face down. That gave me four of a kind and you should have heard him bitch about it.

All friends there was no problem, but there was about $350 in that pot.

That's poker, and it's not the stupid shit played in chruch basements next to AA meetings. This is for real. You do have a chance. There cannot be more than seven players, and one of the seven will walk out with all the money.

That is gambling. These casinos and shit do not fulfill your desires and that is why you keep giving them your money. You did not get what you wanted.

Tell you what, try this so you can understand. Play Monopoly ? Do it with real money. Really. Use pennies for dollars, nickels for fives, dimes for tens, all the way up to actual dollars for one hundreds. The rent on boardwalk with hotels might be a grand in the game, but that equates to ten bucks. I mean it, play it with real money, give it a try.

So it's a hundred to one, who cares ? You come to a Monoploy game with how much ? Just divide it down and use real money. That is the thrill, the chance, the game.

When it comes to business and a few other things, to win, you have to be willing to lose. You need to lose to learn how to win.

I've paid my dues, play me.

T

(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: Taxus Holdem: Internet Gambling - 7/30/2010 12:14:18 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
I'll not play holdem becaude the game is over 90% luck, and less than 10% skill.

Total bullshit.

Serious poker players prefer hold 'em because less luck is involved.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Taxus Holdem: Internet Gambling - 7/30/2010 12:34:53 AM   
AQuietSimpleMan


Posts: 1410
Joined: 11/15/2009
Status: offline 		Termy......

You are full of shit.

You got your games reversed.

In Texas Hold'em you have Cards that everyone gets to use out of a 52 card deck. Knowing what 2 cards you hold you now have statistics for what is possible and what is left in the deck. Shooting for certain hands are not statistical odds.

In 5 Card Draw and 7 Card Stud the Statistical Odds are Based only on what is in front of YOU and only YOU. While in Hold'em Having to create the Best of 5 while only having two of your own Mathematically creates the knowing statistics and counting down cards. Knowing that most people will not fold High and Suited cards you now have an even Higher Statistical Odds on knowing from who is left playing by the river what odds your hand has in winning.

And just to make it clear, Hold'em has a world series.... There isn't one for the Kinda poker they make slot machines play.

Termy, stick to the things you know...... this made you look really stupid.

Maybe that was what you were going for? I mean with the BAD Italian Goomba Talk like the Chest Hair Guy at the Pizzaria.

So that you know of all the places people THINK Poker was invented.... Italy is never mentioned.... nor are New York or Chisago Speak Easy's thats just where it got the most play.

QSM

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RE: Taxus Holdem: Internet Gambling - 7/30/2010 6:06:24 AM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain


If you win gambling the company will pay you money and they report it to the IRS just like a bank reports the interest you earn on the money you have in the bank.

If you don’t report it on your taxes the IRS will know and mention it when you get your reply to the tax return you file. You can get fined for not reporting income and late payment charges.



That sounds reasonable, Brain, but consider I may be playing maybe three different online sites. I may be net loser in two and net gainer in one. The net loser sites will not report income on me, according to your scheme, but the net winner site will. Now suppose the net winnings at the one site are not sufficient to overcome the loses at the other sites, so overall I am really a net loser. The IRS however only has the one report. So, I have to defend myself by showing proof of the greater loses. Gets kinda messy.

But my real concern here is not so much the poker but degradation of freedom on the internet. Businesses are looking to monetize the internet and of course that makes sense. Now the government will be doing the same by placing a tax on what I do for entertainment in the privacy of my own home. I find that a bit disturbing but maybe I shouldn't.

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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Taxus Holdem: Internet Gambling - 7/30/2010 6:12:18 AM   
flcouple2009


Posts: 2784
Joined: 1/8/2009
Status: offline 		Well Vincent,

How is that different from the way reporting works in a casino now?

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RE: Taxus Holdem: Internet Gambling - 7/30/2010 6:14:08 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		No more unwieldly than the way winnings are currently taxed at the track and at OTB parlors.Serious horse players always hang on to their losing tickets.....for that day they know is just around the corner...the one in which that long odds triple finally comes in.They havve thed taxes taken off the top from winnings and than they claim their losings at the end of the year as a hedge against those taxs removed from the winnings.

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RE: Taxus Holdem: Internet Gambling - 7/30/2010 6:17:49 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		I'm lost.  The IRS already imposes tax on illegal earnings.  How does this new bill change anything?

Personally, if I saw a man who had a serious problem with overspending frantically hitting up others to subsidize his spending habits, I would think it was immoral.  He needs to address his out of control spending first.  Same for Uncle Sam.


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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

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RE: Taxus Holdem: Internet Gambling - 7/30/2010 6:38:54 AM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		I wish Barney Frank would be as carefull with the taxes we pay as he is with his own money, ie $1.00 senior citizen discounts..He is right about the on line gaming though.

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RE: Taxus Holdem: Internet Gambling - 7/30/2010 6:50:39 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

Well Vincent,

How is that different from the way reporting works in a casino now?



I go out to a casino. I am in a public place. I have surrendered any expectation of privacy. Not so in my own home. It is the privacy invasion that concerns me most.

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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Taxus Holdem: Internet Gambling - 7/30/2010 7:26:46 AM   
flcouple2009


Posts: 2784
Joined: 1/8/2009
Status: offline 		What invasion of privacy?

You win over a certain amount the gambling service will report it just as a casino does now.  It's up to yoiu to keep track of the losses. 

Connecting to the online casino would be no different than going out to one.

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RE: Taxus Holdem: Internet Gambling - 7/30/2010 7:35:57 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

What invasion of privacy?

You win over a certain amount the gambling service will report it just as a casino does now.  It's up to yoiu to keep track of the losses. 

Connecting to the online casino would be no different than going out to one.



You make a valid point about the casino reporting mechanism as did Brain earlier. The privacy issue that concerned me was the slippery slope argument I put forward in the OP. Once the Feds tax what I do on my computer, I thought, they open the door for other taxes on things I do on my computer.

Since I am the only one having that concern I guess I am wrong and it is not so important. I can live with that.

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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Taxus Holdem: Internet Gambling - 7/30/2010 8:23:43 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or



I'll not play holdem becaude the game is over 90% luck, and less than 10% skill.


I've paid my dues, play me.

T


Heads up anytime, any stakes. Full Tilt or Pokerstars. the cash + a death match....the loser after a minimum of 5 hours of play cant post here for a week.

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RE: Taxus Holdem: Internet Gambling - 7/30/2010 8:30:39 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain


If you win gambling the company will pay you money and they report it to the IRS just like a bank reports the interest you earn on the money you have in the bank.

If you don’t report it on your taxes the IRS will know and mention it when you get your reply to the tax return you file. You can get fined for not reporting income and late payment charges.



That sounds reasonable, Brain, but consider I may be playing maybe three different online sites. I may be net loser in two and net gainer in one. The net loser sites will not report income on me, according to your scheme, but the net winner site will. Now suppose the net winnings at the one site are not sufficient to overcome the loses at the other sites, so overall I am really a net loser. The IRS however only has the one report. So, I have to defend myself by showing proof of the greater loses. Gets kinda messy.

But my real concern here is not so much the poker but degradation of freedom on the internet. Businesses are looking to monetize the internet and of course that makes sense. Now the government will be doing the same by placing a tax on what I do for entertainment in the privacy of my own home. I find that a bit disturbing but maybe I shouldn't.


Unless you file as a professional gambler, gambling winnings are taxed "Session by session", and you only declare winnings, you dont get to offset by losses. The definition of a "session" is somewhat ambiguous, but has generally been interpreted as a 24 hour period unless you can prove that you played longer than that in a single seating. That is very easy to do in todays casinos with computer tracking.

Online will even be easier. Every time you log in or out of a site will most likely be considered a session. The site will report the total of winning sessions and the total of losing sessions. Non-professionals will file only on the winnings, professionals the net.

Also a slight misstatement in the OP. Internet gambling is not currently illegal. What is illegal is for financial institutions to enable the funding of the players account. Cashing out is not an illegal transaction, just deposits.

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RE: Taxus Holdem: Internet Gambling - 7/30/2010 11:16:58 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain


If you win gambling the company will pay you money and they report it to the IRS just like a bank reports the interest you earn on the money you have in the bank.

If you don’t report it on your taxes the IRS will know and mention it when you get your reply to the tax return you file. You can get fined for not reporting income and late payment charges.



That sounds reasonable, Brain, but consider I may be playing maybe three different online sites. I may be net loser in two and net gainer in one. The net loser sites will not report income on me, according to your scheme, but the net winner site will. Now suppose the net winnings at the one site are not sufficient to overcome the loses at the other sites, so overall I am really a net loser. The IRS however only has the one report. So, I have to defend myself by showing proof of the greater loses. Gets kinda messy.

But my real concern here is not so much the poker but degradation of freedom on the internet. Businesses are looking to monetize the internet and of course that makes sense. Now the government will be doing the same by placing a tax on what I do for entertainment in the privacy of my own home. I find that a bit disturbing but maybe I shouldn't.


Unless you file as a professional gambler, gambling winnings are taxed "Session by session", and you only declare winnings, you dont get to offset by losses. The definition of a "session" is somewhat ambiguous, but has generally been interpreted as a 24 hour period unless you can prove that you played longer than that in a single seating. That is very easy to do in todays casinos with computer tracking.

Online will even be easier. Every time you log in or out of a site will most likely be considered a session. The site will report the total of winning sessions and the total of losing sessions. Non-professionals will file only on the winnings, professionals the net.

Also a slight misstatement in the OP. Internet gambling is not currently illegal. What is illegal is for financial institutions to enable the funding of the players account. Cashing out is not an illegal transaction, just deposits.


Yep, you're right. My bad.

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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Taxus Holdem: Internet Gambling - 7/30/2010 10:40:29 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Gotta disagree on this one Ken. Maybe you can't hack those other games, but I can. Actually I don't even like stud all that much. I don't want anyone to see any of my cards. All they know is if I opened, stayed, and how many cards I drew. And I fuck with their head on that as well. I mean when you got a really high pair and only draw two cards rather than three, or when the hand is weak you might draw nothing, or possibly one card. But one card they think you might have two pair.

It has been said that there are no bad hands, just bad players. If you can't see ANYTHING I got, and I didn't open, and I bet a cetain way, you know nothing, period. In stud it is different, you play that based on your hole cards. I beat my Dojo with four of a kind, three of them were in the hole.

What he taught me best, was that you are going to win and lose. It goes around. The idea though is to minimize your losses and maximize your gains. You don't bet your pocket, emotions, hunches, none of that shit. It is all a bunch of math.

You can't use numbers to do it fast enough though, everyone will bitch. There are two major axes to think of. One is between pot odds and real odds. That means between how much it costs you now to stay in vs how much is in the pot, and your hand. What are the chances of it winning ?

But I know a couple of things, first, you never bet your pocket. Do not ever go to a game without alot of money that you are willing to burn. There are people who are much better than me and would like to spend my money, and have the guile to get it. I am no fool. I know that in any gambling estabishment the odds are against me, and the best I can hope to do is to level the plying field with ability. The fact still remains that I could lose. But some always lose and that is what keeps the place in business. Whaddya figure the rent is on a horse racetrack ? They are not in business because they sell beers for over two bucks.

But I will always say that games in which they see none if your cards are best. If you can bluff a table of people and they don't pay to see em, they don't even know they've been bluffed. The people I played with were good at this shit. It is more of a mind game than a card game. You literally do not need good cards to win, unless your opponents are experts. And of course everyone thinks they are. Bring money to the table.

That's all, bring money to the table. Hope you get out of there with your shirt. I am not saying I am that good, but I ain't bad.

T

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RE: Taxus Holdem: Internet Gambling - 7/30/2010 11:43:07 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		You keep on thinking that way. Guys who make a living playing poker love people like you, easy marks. They'll figure out your bluff pattern fast enough and take you to the cleaners.

Serious poker players prefer hold'em. It's not just me telling you that. It's the fact that the big tournaments are all hold'em. Every serious poker room in every casino I've been in the last ten years is all hold'em or all but one table is hold'em.

BTW I can do the math fast enough that I won't slow down a game all. It doesn't take too much effort to learn the odds of any poker variant. And the pros are way better at it than I am.

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RE: Taxus Holdem: Internet Gambling - 7/31/2010 5:51:43 AM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

But I will always say that games in which they see none if your cards are best. If you can bluff a table of people and they don't pay to see em, they don't even know they've been bluffed. The people I played with were good at this shit. It is more of a mind game than a card game. You literally do not need good cards to win, unless your opponents are experts. And of course everyone thinks they are. Bring money to the table.


Can't imagine a more boring game than Draw.

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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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