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David Stockman Opposes Extending Bush Tax Cuts - 8/2/2010 10:12:38 PM   
Owner59


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Status: offline 		http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2010/08/02/128933945/david-stockman-opposes-extended-bush-tax-cuts-icymi

David Stockman who served as President Ronald Reagan's budget director, has for years been known as a deficit hawk.

Still, he was a supply sider long before many of the current crop of Republicans who support the foundational idea that tax cuts always boost the economy were in Congress.

So it's worth noting that Stockman had a New York Times opinion piece over the weekend in which he seemed to channel liberal economist Paul Krugman in his criticism of those in the party he once served for pushing to extend the Bush tax cuts despite the impact that would have on


His recent NY Times piece...

"Four Deformations of the Apocalypse"

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/opinion/01stockman.html

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President Obama
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RE: David Stockman Opposes Extending Bush Tax Cuts - 8/2/2010 11:07:07 PM   
Fellow


Posts: 1486
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Here is a recent discussion:
 The American rich do not even need the rest any more.
http://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/2010/08/02/do-the-rich-even-need-the-rest-of-america-anymore/?blog_id=25&post_id=3375
"If the American rich increasingly do not depend for their wealth on American workers and American consumers or for their safety on American soldiers or police officers, then it is hardly surprising that so many of them should be so hostile to paying taxes to support the infrastructure and the social programs that help the majority of the American people. The rich don’t need the rest anymore."

 http://www.salon.com/news/us_economy/index.html?story=/news/feature/2010/07/27/american_people_obsolete

It is unfair to tax American rich any more as their income becomes increasingly uncoupled  from American domestic labor. Whatever the tax rate is most of it will not be even collected from very high end people and businesses. BA and GE for example paid 0 tax in 2009. Most large companies use offshore subsidiaries to hide their profits from IRS.

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RE: David Stockman Opposes Extending Bush Tax Cuts - 8/2/2010 11:31:50 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2010/08/02/128933945/david-stockman-opposes-extended-bush-tax-cuts-icymi

David Stockman who served as President Ronald Reagan's budget director, has for years been known as a deficit hawk.

Still, he was a supply sider long before many of the current crop of Republicans who support the foundational idea that tax cuts always boost the economy were in Congress.

So it's worth noting that Stockman had a New York Times opinion piece over the weekend in which he seemed to channel liberal economist Paul Krugman in his criticism of those in the party he once served for pushing to extend the Bush tax cuts despite the impact that would have on


His recent NY Times piece...

"Four Deformations of the Apocalypse"

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/opinion/01stockman.html



Yes, he has been a deficit hawk, but he abandoned supply side in the early 80s and has had a vendetta against Reagan since then. The language of his op-ed make it clear that its purpose is political, not economic.

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RE: David Stockman Opposes Extending Bush Tax Cuts - 8/2/2010 11:42:16 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2010/08/02/128933945/david-stockman-opposes-extended-bush-tax-cuts-icymi

David Stockman who served as President Ronald Reagan's budget director, has for years been known as a deficit hawk.

Still, he was a supply sider long before many of the current crop of Republicans who support the foundational idea that tax cuts always boost the economy were in Congress.

So it's worth noting that Stockman had a New York Times opinion piece over the weekend in which he seemed to channel liberal economist Paul Krugman in his criticism of those in the party he once served for pushing to extend the Bush tax cuts despite the impact that would have on

His recent NY Times piece...

"Four Deformations of the Apocalypse"

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/opinion/01stockman.html

Actually Stockman was not a supply-sider or at least for very long. Recall, he said later that it was the same old trickle down shit that repubs always push and will soon just add to deficit spending.

What he also explains in this piece is why the orthodox right were pissed at Reagan for his deficits. They never had the votes to stop him and the corrupt repubs and what came to be called...the 'Reagan democrats.'

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RE: David Stockman Opposes Extending Bush Tax Cuts - 8/3/2010 5:54:56 AM   
servantforuse


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Status: offline 		If the democrats in power think it's a good idea to raise taxes on the middle class next January they should just do it. They can deal with the fallout in 2012.

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RE: David Stockman Opposes Extending Bush Tax Cuts - 8/3/2010 6:22:32 AM   
ElizabethAnne


Posts: 1751
Status: offline 		Depending on what happens between now and 2012, they will anyway.   America votes their pocketbook, for the most part.  Things are good, the President gets an 8 year run, things are bad, it's a one term.

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RE: David Stockman Opposes Extending Bush Tax Cuts - 8/3/2010 6:26:09 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

Yes, he has been a deficit hawk, but he abandoned supply side in the early 80s and has had a vendetta against Reagan since then. The language of his op-ed make it clear that its purpose is political, not economic.


More accurately, he and the rest of Reagan's economic people faced the reality that their policies didn't work, that their guess about where we were on the Lauffer curve was far off, that revenues from new ventures would not come pouring in. The entire thing was set upon a guess, a guess that proved wrong.

But the simple message was out, and like the other simple slogans, the Pubs have been chanting them ever since, implementing the same failed policies with the same poor results every chance they get. The only new idea they'd had since is preemptive invasion--another poorly thought out reaction with piles of negative long term consequences.

There's a reason the Republican Party is polling even below Congress (which already polls damn low).

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RE: David Stockman Opposes Extending Bush Tax Cuts - 8/3/2010 6:32:20 AM   
servantforuse


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Status: offline 		Music, Do you think it's a good idea to give the middle class a tax increase in a recession ?

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RE: David Stockman Opposes Extending Bush Tax Cuts - 8/3/2010 6:39:43 AM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
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Status: offline 		If all of the Bush tax cuts are allowed to expire on Jan. 1, 2011, it will result in the largest tax increase in Americas history. Go dems..

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RE: David Stockman Opposes Extending Bush Tax Cuts - 8/3/2010 6:45:18 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Here is what the 'Bush' tax cuts were: 
http://www.smartmoney.com/personal-finance/taxes/what-the-bush-tax-cut-means-for-you-14345/

Heres the politics of it today:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20011515-503544.html

Note that it seems that the democrats only want part of the tax cuts to expire.


Which all in all begs the question, how many bills have the republicans introduced to extend the tax cuts?  Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? 

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RE: David Stockman Opposes Extending Bush Tax Cuts - 8/3/2010 7:25:06 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Music, Do you think it's a good idea to give the middle class a tax increase in a recession ?

Do you think it's a good idea to mischaracterize a situation as a basis for policy decisions?

The Bush tax cuts were a poor idea, period. Even Greenspan called them reckless and irresponsible. Then Bush took him aside, roughed him up a bit, and suddenly, "they could work," under certain conditions. I said at the time we'd be playing for this 20 years, no matter what happened next. Here we are.

The tax cuts are spread over the spectrum of the economy, and do not fall squarely on the middle class. Stop that nonsense.

But the small percentages we're talking here aren't significant to this middle to upper-middle class tax payer. My federal taxes went down a smidgeon, and my state and local taxes soared. Duh. Stuff has to be paid for. All we did was introduce uncertainty and inefficiency, and nearly every state and county is struggling. Fantasy and sound bites don't fund schools, police, firefighters--sound structural budgets do.

Letting a tax cut expire isn't fairly a "tax increase"--for starters, we'd have had those revenues to offset the bloated deficit the Republicans gave us along with those tax cuts. All it did, like the Reagan ones, was redistribute funds from the middle class to the wealthy, which is why both times the gap between rich and poor widened and the middle class shrunk.

See it for what it is.

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RE: David Stockman Opposes Extending Bush Tax Cuts - 8/3/2010 9:33:43 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery



All it did, like the Reagan ones, was redistribute funds from the middle class to the wealthy, which is why both times the gap between rich and poor widened and the middle class shrunk.

See it for what it is.


See it for what you claim it is, you mean.

Very simple to go to the IRS website and see that the proportion of taxes paid by the wealthy INCREASED after every tax rate cut.

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RE: David Stockman Opposes Extending Bush Tax Cuts - 8/3/2010 10:27:40 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		And yet that didn't translate into increased revenues.

That's the problem with these simplistic slogans and approaches--they ignore the existence of complex interactions.

So from "It's just that simple" -- it isn't.

It never is.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 8/3/2010 10:28:11 AM >

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RE: David Stockman Opposes Extending Bush Tax Cuts - 8/3/2010 10:33:01 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

And yet that didn't translate into increased revenues.



Actually it did.

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RE: David Stockman Opposes Extending Bush Tax Cuts - 8/3/2010 10:43:06 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		That sure explains the deficit and the increased gulf between rich and poor.

No wonder Bush I had to raise taxes.

Oh, wait, that doesn't make sense, does it!



They grow briefly, then fall again. Same thing in the Bush years.

Then there's adjusting for inflation.

It just isn't that simple. If it were, Bush wouldn't have seen three recessions, finally unable to buy his way out with monetary policy.

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RE: David Stockman Opposes Extending Bush Tax Cuts - 8/3/2010 6:29:18 PM   
AnimusRex


Posts: 2165
Joined: 5/13/2006
Status: offline 		Its actually very easy to increase tax revenue without a tax increase;

If the gov't borrows a shitload of money and pumps it into the economy to build, oh, I don't know, lets say bridges, roads, bombers, Star Wars missile defense shields, whatever- then the factories will hum, we all bring home paychecks, blow it on hookers and beer, and we are all happy.

This is what Reagan did in the 80s and Bush II did in the 00's.

Tax revenues from all this economic activity go way up; of course, lets all pretend that the tax revenues are enough to cover the deficits that occur. But hey, its fun while it lasts, right?

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RE: David Stockman Opposes Extending Bush Tax Cuts - 8/4/2010 6:28:37 AM   
Owner59


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Status: offline 		Let them expire.

I`d support that money going to the middle class as a tax break.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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RE: David Stockman Opposes Extending Bush Tax Cuts - 8/4/2010 8:47:02 AM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		I certainly don't see any evidence that the tax cuts are doing your economy any favours at the moment. Increased tax revenues are likely to work a bit better. They'd have trouble working any worse.

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RE: David Stockman Opposes Extending Bush Tax Cuts - 8/4/2010 9:31:01 AM   
Hanscuff18


Posts: 22
Status: offline 		Raise the taxes on the middle class? Care to back that up with sources? The Bush tax cuts don't help the middle class, nor will they save jobs.
If they saved jobs, we wouldn't have outsourced them or lost them in the first place.

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