RE: Redirecting the Flow (Full Version)

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porcelaine -> RE: Redirecting the Flow (8/4/2010 8:42:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavekal

I think there is a bit of denial and missing the point going on here. Whether there is a profit/business angle or not, women who know how to push a man's hot buttons easily control men.


Or perhaps you're making sweeping generalizations and attempting to speak for all male submissives and slaves. Do you really believe that's the crux of how she controls him? Do actually believe there aren't men that live to serve and do it because they want to obey their owner and it has nothing to do with their man meat but the head atop their shoulders instead?

quote:

Actually though, you ARE here for our entertainment. And we are here for yours.


It would be more prudent to state that is how you see things in your neck of the woods. I assure you there are others that would get a hearty laugh at what you've written and consider it preposterous to say the least. When I want entertainment I see an opera or engage in another fun loving past-time instead. That isn't the hallmark of my existence nor his for that matter.

~porcelaine



Lockit -> RE: Redirecting the Flow (8/4/2010 8:50:18 PM)

I am all for the give and take... but if a man only has one button, I don't care how large... I am not pushing it.

I've got some buttons too and I do expect that some of them get pushed, just as his numerous buttons will get pushed, before those buttons under clothing have anything to do with anything. First buttons to pay attention to are humor and intellect. Without those buttons pushed... no others get pushed. I don't care if it means I am alone for the rest of my life... or it takes that long to find one... I want a man who wants and gives more than physical pleasures and doesn't expect physical pleasures to lead into something else that might never happen.

Why the sarcasm and the stand I take? Have you looked around lately? Men in abundance wanting a woman to pleasure them, all focused on their pleasure with not a whole lot to offer except a willing body.

Most want to share the body and see where it goes and if things evolve into something. I'd rather have something substantial to start with and evolve into the physical.



AAkasha -> RE: Redirecting the Flow (8/4/2010 8:56:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavekal

I think there is a bit of denial and missing the point going on here. Whether there is a profit/business angle or not, women who know how to push a man's hot buttons easily control men.
I said nothing at all about women being here for our entertainment. Actually though, you ARE here for our entertainment. And we are here for yours. If the cycle breaks down anywhere, the whole system does. Every relationship, love, freindship, business, whatever, relies on a give and take, a quid pro quo, mutual benefit. When it is done right, everyone is happy and giving becomes receiving. In our thing, the femdom life, a male gets enjoyment from pleasing. A dominant woman enjoys being served and communicates that. Makes a man all the more eager to please, so he does so, and so on and so on and so on.





Appealing to the 'cock' is sort of the lowest common denominator method to get a man motivated, and also a bad way to lead if it's a fall back and becomes standard operating procedure.  There's no doubt that arousal is a VERY powerful tool, but if a woman relies on it to have control, she's ultimately the prisoner to his cock, not the other way around. 

I learned very early on that a great way to get a man to submit to my weird "needs" was to get him turned on.  But I wasn't going to be fucking guys randomly or start trading sex for S&M either.  And I learned early on that if a man got hard and I used him getting hard to get what I wanted, then his motivation started and ended with his erection. It's not a good basis for ongoing, mutually respectful intimacy.  And it's a really horrible basis for a man's "carrot"  if it's status quo.  Then it's all about his dick.  For short term? Effective. For a man I want to keep around?  It's a tool but should not be the only one, and certainly not one that he considers the cornerstone of his identify/submission to me. 

I found that it's much more rewarding and effective to use a man's EGO as the carrot; or, even better, is use MY arousal as his carrot. Huge difference, and the results are much more positive and incredible if my goal is longterm, emotional connection (vs. just straight fun).  With ego, what nurtures him is, "I feel good about me, as a man, because I make her feel good - safe, protected, and most importantly sexually satisfied and femdom-satisifed."  With my arousal, his feel-good moment is more like, "I feel good about myself because I am capable of turning her on via my sacrifice, surrender, bravery and lowering of my pride."  When all of these can be achieved WITHOUT the focus being on his cock -- that's golden.

Sure, I love cock control, I love chastity, and I fully recognize a very easy, effective, fast, and "energy cheap" way to get a man (vanilla or kinky) to pay attention is to get him hard.  But it's not good for longevity if that's all a woman has in her toolbox.  I have had many wonderful femdom experiences where a man's arousal was so inconsequential I couldn't tell you when it was over if he was hard or not - I didn't care. I cared more about what was going on in my panties, as he was also.

Akasha



KurtAllen -> RE: Redirecting the Flow (8/5/2010 6:00:32 AM)

quote:

I think there is a bit of denial and missing the point going on here. Whether there is a profit/business angle or not,
women who know how to push a man's hot buttons easily control men.


The last thing I want to do is project and argumentative attitude so it is not with that intent that I say, I totally disagree.
Making the assumption the male is incapable of critical thought simply because the swelling in his loin reaches critical stage
is not only unrealistic, it’s simply not true.
A man is not governed by a pulsating throbbing cock beyond thoughts of the pleasure and power it represents in his mind
and from my earliest childhood memory those thoughts have been with me but I am the controller of my conduct behavior
and thinking and I alone determiin when and how my cock will be used. Not a woman using all her womanly charms.



ReginaMirus -> RE: Redirecting the Flow (8/5/2010 6:37:34 AM)

Well, thank god. I was beginning to think that slavekal was actually representing the entire male population. [:'(]



KurtAllen -> RE: Redirecting the Flow (8/5/2010 7:25:43 AM)

quote:

Well, thank god. I was beginning to think that slavekal was actually representing the entire male population


I suspect he is individualizing or allowing his preference to guide his thinking.
However, many women are firmly convinced a suggestively revealing cleavage, sway of the hip or well turned calf especial
in 6” heals is somehow causal of something more than appreciation of the visual. Indeed lust leaps to the surface at the least
provocation but around age 9 the male is introduced to it and quickly learns that lust is a dangerous two edged sword that cuts
deeply in both women and men.



slavekal -> RE: Redirecting the Flow (8/5/2010 7:58:58 AM)

Okay...so it's not true that about a zillion products (that have nothing to do with female beauty) are advertised using female beauty. We don't have gorgeous girls standing alongside cars at the auto show. Men don't give up tons of money women every day because of our desire for them. The guy who wrote the blueprint for the whole femdom scene wrote this.

"Man is the one who desires, woman the one who is desired. This is woman's entire but decisive advantage. Through man's passions, nature has given man into woman's hands, and the woman who does not know how to make him her subject, her slave, her toy, and how to betray him with a smile in the end is not wise.”

Why do you ladies think guys are willing to do all those painful/humiliating/difficult tasks if it is not from sexual arousal and energy? Nobody said it is about intercourse or having a raging boner every second, but it does come from sexual energy. This thing we do is a sexual thing.



PeonForHer -> RE: Redirecting the Flow (8/5/2010 8:15:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL:  This thing we do is a sexual thing.


Woah, now that's a good subject for a meaty thread.

Re the present debate, though - and addressed to all - I do think we should try to avoid overstating.  If men have 'cock-buttons', they're not available to all women, all of the time.  Mine are locked in a cabinet; only I have the key, and few women have what it takes to steal it from my pocket and keep it.  They'd not be nice enough, kind enough, warm enough, etc, etc, etc.  I suspect most men have such a 'cock-button-cabinet', though how easily available it is may vary from one man to the next.. 

Have fun all - got to go away for a while.



LadyHibiscus -> RE: Redirecting the Flow (8/5/2010 8:44:22 AM)

--off to locksmith school--



BonesFromAsh -> RE: Redirecting the Flow (8/5/2010 9:09:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slavekal

Okay...so it's not true that about a zillion products (that have nothing to do with female beauty) are advertised using female beauty. We don't have gorgeous girls standing alongside cars at the auto show. Men don't give up tons of money women every day because of our desire for them.

Clever marketing ploy that plays to the fantasies and visual desires of gullible men. Similar to the "Bodice Ripper" book covers that appeal to a woman's fantasy of the "perfect" man.


The guy who wrote the blueprint for the whole femdom scene wrote this.

"Man is the one who desires, woman the one who is desired. This is woman's entire but decisive advantage. Through man's passions, nature has given man into woman's hands, and the woman who does not know how to make him her subject, her slave, her toy, and how to betray him with a smile in the end is not wise.”

Betrayal doesn't interest me. This sounds more like manipulation.

Why do you ladies think guys are willing to do all those painful/humiliating/difficult tasks if it is not from sexual arousal and energy? Nobody said it is about intercourse or having a raging boner every second, but it does come from sexual energy. This thing we do is a sexual thing.

So, everything that entails WIITWD is based on sexual energy? As a woman who, in the past, was been in a position of submission, this wasn't always the case for me. I have to wonder if this is a male only thing in general or simply one male's opinion.

For some reason, I'm reminded of this thread The natural power that women have over men...








slavekal -> RE: Redirecting the Flow (8/5/2010 9:15:57 AM)

Yes, bodice ripper books appeal to a need in women in the same way. No argument here. Those books and movies tap into a woman's need for security and to be adored, and sometimes to be given an excuse for her sexuality. She was "ravished". Male needs are different. We react to different stimuli. High heels, boobs, bikinis, perfume, a tender trap.
I will grant you that the betrayal part is not necessary. Masoch was taking things to an extreme there.
You can't compare a submissive woman's motives with a submissive man's. Different. Require different approaches. You are comparing cats and dogs.



KurtAllen -> RE: Redirecting the Flow (8/5/2010 9:27:17 AM)

quote:

I suspect most men have such a 'cock-button-cabinet', though how easily available it is may vary from one man to the next..


I don’t know about a cock button cabinet but during the course of years of wondering both sides of the whip I encountered many intriguing interesting and exciting people throughout all of Europe, Asia, South East Asia, South America and the United States and I have no misconceptions about both males and females pursuing life’s pleasures in an ever widening stream of diversities and do not believe one can stereotype the male as a mindless cock driven clueless human being incapable of meeting the challenges of human interaction and emotional attachment.



slavekal -> RE: Redirecting the Flow (8/5/2010 9:33:28 AM)

I don't think anyone was trying to say men are mindless. I am certainly not saying that. As human beings, we have well developed brains. We are not totally at the mercy of our appetites. But let's not go to the other extreme and pretend that those appetites have ceased to exist and influence us greatly.



LadyHibiscus -> RE: Redirecting the Flow (8/5/2010 9:43:37 AM)

I have had men serving me with total ED, with really low libidos, that whole thing. Maybe they did have some magical fantasy that was sexually driven. Thankfully, they did not share that with me.

It's fab when a sub and I share sexual chemistry. It's not ENOUGH, though. It's a world of beautiful people, and so I have a pussy? Big deal. If my desirablilty is #1 on the list, my interest in that relationship wanes. I have to be feeding more than the libido to stay interested--or even GET interested. Some jackass on the other side was panting after me and offering NOTHING else. Isn't that the ultimate tease, the master manipulation? I'm worth more than that.



slavekal -> RE: Redirecting the Flow (8/5/2010 9:50:56 AM)

It is still all about your femaleness. Otherwise these guys would be serving other men, or not doing it at all. Desire is not all about an erection. It is mental and emotional too.



BonesFromAsh -> RE: Redirecting the Flow (8/5/2010 9:51:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slavekal

Yes, bodice ripper books appeal to a need in women in the same way. No argument here. Those books and movies tap into a woman's need for security and to be adored, and sometimes to be given an excuse for her sexuality. She was "ravished". Male needs are different. We react to different stimuli. High heels, boobs, bikinis, perfume, a tender trap.

What you describe in regards to "romance" novels is different than what I mentioned. You stated a man will
quote:

...give up tons of money women every day because of our desire for them
referencing gorgeous women and the products they help advertise. I compared this to the hunky male model used on the cover of bodice rippers as a way to sell a fantasy...same thing. The key to this is gullibility and suspension of reality....how gullible is a person to the visual image used to the point of believing the marketing ploy?

Yes, each example plays to primal desires but thankfully humans have developed a little further along the food chain, or so I like to think. After all, when playtime is over and reality is back in place, and so is your cock, is it still all about sexual energy or is there something more? Which is the glue that holds a dynamic in place...the sexual energy or the "more"?





porcelaine -> RE: Redirecting the Flow (8/5/2010 9:54:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavekal

Why do you ladies think guys are willing to do all those painful/humiliating/difficult tasks if it is not from sexual arousal and energy? Nobody said it is about intercourse or having a raging boner every second, but it does come from sexual energy. This thing we do is a sexual thing.


Once again you're assuming that his submission is motivated by sexual interaction and that isn't the case for everyone. In fact, I'd posit those that are slaves or live in 24/7 TPE or O/p relationships would probably answer differently. I think you make an interesting case but we mustn't view submission as a one-size fits all entree. There is a scale involved and for some it is highly sexual and others enjoy the control element and hunger for that immensely. Your perspective has merit and I'm certain there are quite a few that feel that way, particularly at the beginning of their journey.


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Re the present debate, though - and addressed to all - I do think we should try to avoid overstating.  If men have 'cock-buttons', they're not available to all women, all of the time.  Mine are locked in a cabinet; only I have the key, and few women have what it takes to steal it from my pocket and keep it.  They'd not be nice enough, kind enough, warm enough, etc, etc, etc.  I suspect most men have such a 'cock-button-cabinet', though how easily available it is may vary from one man to the next.. 



I agree. While I don't denounce those that make theirs readily available to the masses, I prefer someone that's more selective with his wares instead.

~porcelaine



LadyHibiscus -> RE: Redirecting the Flow (8/5/2010 9:54:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slavekal

It is still all about your femaleness. Otherwise these guys would be serving other men, or not doing it at all. Desire is not all about an erection. It is mental and emotional too.



Exactly---and that is the point that is just not coming across here at all.



slavekal -> RE: Redirecting the Flow (8/5/2010 10:00:27 AM)

We need both, the sexual arousal and the mental compatibility. Either one without the other is incomplete. Actually, one can be strengthened by the other.



LadyHibiscus -> RE: Redirecting the Flow (8/5/2010 10:03:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slavekal

We need both, the sexual arousal and the mental compatibility. Either one without the other is incomplete.



Now, how hard was it to say that? [:)] And THAT fact is what annoys those of us who are not into being controlled by someone else's cock. If you NEED to be locked up to look at my face, wtf? You REALLY don't have the self control to redirect your focus all on your own?

~~
and as a hijack, how did the silicone thingy work? because I am not HATING on chastity toys! just not depending on on them.



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