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To Thine Own Self be True - 8/3/2010 8:56:43 AM

BitaTruble

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So as not to highjack a thread on the BDSM boards...

quote:

But Bita, according to what I am reading here, those things you know about yourself (that you like music, for example), are not actually reality. No matter what your life story is, what you have perceived and been proven wrong about, what views you have been open to and weighed against your life, what trials and errors you have lived, and so on...knowing yourself is not possible.

I think knowing things about yourself is absolutely possible. Knowing yourself completely? Horror! Where do you go from there? Might as well call it a day and pay for the plot because one foot is in the grave. There are things which I *think* I know about myself. Which I think are *probably* true but an outside perception may point out something I have missed which will cause me to reflect further and perhaps change my perception to align with the truth or will reinforce my thought. Those are subjective and by being subjective, I believe, turns them from truth into probabilities. As I said to MM.. everything I know is colored by everything I know but truth is truth.. yours, mine and ours.. truth is objective.

quote:

In my own case, having lived a self lie for a very long period of time, I do trust the inner truths I have come to know. This does not mean I know all of my inner truths, but those I do know were not easily come to. Recognizing the flaws can be scary. Admitting them even scarier. And I continue to learn more truths about myself as I go. I know myself pretty darn well. And I am always open to continuing to look inward. It wasn't all that long ago that I did some serious soul searching and learned a great deal about myself. In fact, I learned some truths about myself that were indeed truths and not simply perceptions.

Exactly! Being there for part of your journey.. well, I can't tell you how often it made me smile to see you.. see a new you.

quote:

But if someone tells me that knowing myself is unrealistic and "shaky", they'd have to be willing to spend the energy to convince me, if they want me to believe them. Tossing out a few quips of "that's not realistic" doesn't do much to expand my thinking. Which is a shame, actually, as it could have been an interesting conversation.

Honey, getting to know yourself, making discovery's, improving *you* is not unrealistic and you know that. It's growth and I think we all shake a little as we grow. Hell, even the Earth quakes and shakes as it changes.. why wouldn't we, as humans, do the same? That part really is not all that important. It's sweating the small stuff and you've got so much big stuff that you're doing and someone wonderful to share that with, it's hardly worth going over at all.

I firmly believe that I have absolute truths in my knowledge of myself.. I also believe others might question those truths but they will stand the closest inspection and remain firm because they are objective.. not *my* truths.. just simple, plain, ordinary truths no matter who views them.

I firmly believe that I have things about me which I believe are probably true and I am certainly not of the belief that there are not hidden facets yet to be discovered that I am not going to want to face. As I get older and wiser, more honest with what's in my head and heart I do believe that those facets are few and far between but there nonetheless. Actually, finding gems about myself, even if they cut me up when I dig for them continues to give me purchase and purpose.

As I told MM, I believe I understand where you are both coming from but without having the same book, you can't be on the same page. I disagree with each of you on some points and agree with each of you on others and none of this is truth.. just opinion based on my own perception.

I titled the subject line as I did because I thought it was fitting for this discussion. To thine own self be true.. and, of course, how is that possible if you don't know yourself.. or, are at least on the path of learning, so I do believe it's possible to be on the path and I for one hope to never reach the end because the old adage, for me, really hits home.. it's the journey, not the destination but that doesn't mean you don't stop and pick up souveniers on the way.

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RE: To Thine Own Self be True - 8/3/2010 9:04:06 AM

Jeffff

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Mine own self has changed greatly over the years.

I think there is value in knowing the difference between need and desire.

I think it is also imprtant to have folks in your life who will call you on your bullshit.

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RE: To Thine Own Self be True - 8/3/2010 9:17:50 AM

Missokyst

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Wow. I need to get ready for the grave now? That might be a problem since I can't afford to die just yet. I am one person that does know not only about myself, but knows it completely. I have decided I am a twisted neurotic perverted somewhat damaged individual, and I embrace that. I have spent years.. years, examining why I do things and it was not an easy journey, but it was interesting! My perception is not changed by someone elses truth. I can say that I don't care about the motivations of my rapist for instance. I can say I don't give a rip if my sister was desperately in love with him enough so that marrying him even after walking in on it is going to change my experience. My perception is based on the reality of what happened to me.
I do know myself completely. And yes, for many years it was horror. But, my life isn't done yet. Where do I go from there? I LIVE, I experience, I interpret, I enjoy and I weigh everything based on what I know from my perception. I still don't give a rip about another persons interpretation of my life or experience. Let them examine themselves and get ready for the grave.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

I think knowing things about yourself is absolutely possible. Knowing yourself completely? Horror! Where do you go from there? Might as well call it a day and pay for the plot because one foot is in the grave. There are things which I *think* I know about myself. Which I think are *probably* true but an outside perception may point out something I have missed which will cause me to reflect further and perhaps change my perception to align with the truth or will reinforce my thought. Those are subjective and by being subjective, I believe, turns them from truth into probabilities. As I said to MM.. everything I know is colored by everything I know but truth is truth.. yours, mine and ours.. truth is objective.

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RE: To Thine Own Self be True - 8/3/2010 9:54:04 AM

BitaTruble

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

Wow. I need to get ready for the grave now?

I have no idea who you are.. so can only say that I believe that you believe what you have posted. I'm not in any position to argue your perceptions nor do I know whether or not they are truth or are subjective or objective. If I miswrote, that's my bad as the author. It was, obviously, too generalized. Let me ammend it by saying that *I* would feel like I had no where to go if I thought I knew it all. Hell, I don't even know how to recognize such a thing much less find it.

quote:

Let them examine themselves and get ready for the grave.

The exact opposite of what I wrote.

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"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

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RE: To Thine Own Self be True - 8/3/2010 7:12:31 PM

NuevaVida

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As usual, you've given me some things to chew on. I'm going to summarize my thoughts here, but I may come back to them later.

You know what part of my road has looked like, hell, you traveled it with me at times. I've done some pretty serious introspection in the last few years, and made some very big changes. Having come from a place of not knowing myself at all, I have spent the last couple of years getting to know myself. I agree with you that I'll never know myself completely, and I hope that I don't fully reach that point because that will mean that I've stopped evolving and changing.

I do know this - I have a pretty good grasp (but not complete, by any means) of who I am today. I know what makes me tick. I know what I think and feel about things, and why I think and feel those things. For the most part. I still discover things about myself. I still hold up that mirror and self examine, and face the not-so-pretty reflection that is sometimes staring back. In fact, there has been some pretty intense stuff that I've had to look at in the last few days. When I find that something disturbs me, I take a closer, more complete look, so I can understand why.

I am also open to someone else holding up that mirror, and even telling me what they see when I still can not see what they're trying to show me. I refuse to wear blinders about these things. I refuse to limit my thinking here. But the person holding the mirror must also be able to accept if, after careful examination, I conclude that they're wrong.

What I was trying to get across in the other thread, and may have failed in doing so, was a concept I read about awhile back, in "The Four Agreements" by Don Miguel Ruiz, where he talks about each individual having a "story" that they have lived. We have each lived our own unique lives which have molded and shaped our views, thoughts, and feelings. When someone shares something with us, we only have our own story to weigh it against, so we base our opinions on where our own lives have brought us - and not necessarily where that person is, based on his/her own story. So there is no way for me to fully know your truth, because only you have lived your story. I might be able to show you areas that you haven't seen, which I can see from a different viewing point, but I have not walked your path. I can not possibly know the truth of your spirit. Nor can you mine. This is why I believe a self aware individual knows more about him/herself than someone else can. I didn't spend endless days and nights reaching into the depths of self, only to conclude that someone else can know more of my truths than me. It's not something I can buy into at this time. If someone can show me differently, I'm willing to look. But so far, no one has.

The points being made in the other thread did not provide me enough substance to understand, but I did try to, and I think I understood some of it. I can not unequivocally say I know myself as well as I'm ever going to know myself, and that no one else can know something about me that I don't already know. If I'm not mistaken, you've proven me wrong on that theory before.

So yes, I do know a great deal about myself, and yes, there are things about myself I have yet to discover, and yes, I can learn more about myself through the input of others (kinda why I invested so much in therapy some years ago), and yes, it is quite realistic for such things to occur. And while I think the soil beneath my feet is subject to shift and even shake at times, I also think I'm standing on pretty solid ground. Standing on "shaky ground", in my opinion, implies something different, however. Standing on shaky ground means, in my opinion, one has no reliable foundation and that's not something I'm going to agree to about myself. That was a truth in my world a few years ago. It is not a truth in my world now.

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RE: To Thine Own Self be True - 8/4/2010 8:16:25 AM

DesFIP

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The only 'all' that we can know is the past. We cannot predict what will happen to us in the future, what new things we may discover, learn to love etc. We can make an educated guess based on past experiences but that doesn't guarantee anything.

Change is inevitable.

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RE: To Thine Own Self be True - 8/4/2010 9:31:03 AM

porcelaine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

I think knowing things about yourself is absolutely possible. Knowing yourself completely? Horror! Where do you go from there?

You move forward taking the knowledge gained in tow with the understanding that neither life nor you are static states. Change is inevitable and you'll alter the opinions, truths, and direction when desire or necessity suggest such.

quote:

Which I think are *probably* true but an outside perception may point out something I have missed which will cause me to reflect further and perhaps change my perception to align with the truth or will reinforce my thought.

An outsider can make a value judgment or assessment based on observation and the limited knowledge they possess of my person. They don't have access to the nuts and bolts and my feedback is never all inclusive. The connective tissue is missing. While they get the result of my reasoning they cannot understand the things that inspired those changes, beliefs, etc. nor the proceeding experiences and so on. It is and always will be an incomplete assessment in my opinion. He doesn't know the bones but I do.

quote:

Those are subjective and by being subjective, I believe, turns them from truth into probabilities. As I said to MM.. everything I know is colored by everything I know but truth is truth.. yours, mine and ours.. truth is objective.

There are groups of people that spend their lives seeking the truth. Although that desire may not burn deep within for everyone that doesn't suggest that the person standing next you isn't pursuing the same. My quest for truth began long ago. I discovered Buddha's words at the age of eight and something switched on that never turned off. The need for self actualization has been with me for most of my life.

quote:

Actually, finding gems about myself, even if they cut me up when I dig for them continues to give me purchase and purpose.

I agree.

~porcelaine

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RE: To Thine Own Self be True - 8/4/2010 2:44:51 PM

NuevaVida

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

The only 'all' that we can know is the past. We cannot predict what will happen to us in the future, what new things we may discover, learn to love etc. We can make an educated guess based on past experiences but that doesn't guarantee anything.

Change is inevitable.

We can know who we are in the present. Which is the point was trying to make in another thread. Not necessarily "all", but we can sure know a lot.

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