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Initial Negotiations - 4/18/2006 6:49:03 PM   
ladychatterley


Posts: 132
Joined: 3/10/2006
Status: offline 		I have a stupid newbie question based on having read too much without actually getting involved in real life, but I find myself scared by some of the things I've read.  So, in initial negotiations, can one assume certain things?  

Two places really shook me: some doms in our local on-line discussion group were arguing for the right to cut off a sub's ear.  (I think they were arguing theoretically, but it still really shook me.)  One of the doms argued for the "modicum of initial consent" theory which basically said that if she hadn't specifically specified it as a limit, then she couldn't add it as a limit later, even if she didn't know what she was in for.  I think at least one of them was arguing "she should trust me enough to know I'd never do that" but it wasn't phrased that way--more of 'it's my right to do with my property as I see fit."

Also in another situation where I didn't get involved, we discussed possible future three-ways, which I wanted to be open to considering, but then found out later that he considered condoms inappropriate--it would be withholding some form of participation, even in a situation with multiple partners.  This was a hard limit for me, but one I hadn't realized until challenged because I just assumed everyone would use condoms with multiple partners.

I know the old adage about assuming, but I also don't want to be someone that has a huge long list of limits, however I don't know how much one can take for granted.  Are there accepted guidelines of what one can assume is not included unless otherwise specified?  I know that "Safe, Sane and Consensual" is both controversial and nebulous, but if it is agreed on, does it actually mean anything?  I've sort of started saying "nothing that purposefully breaks skin" but I don't then specify "or bones" because I assume that is assumed, and if I specify that, do I have to talk about ligaments?  I don't want to list everything I'd never do because I'd much rather start off with positives than negatives, but I don't want to mislead someone or turn around and have to deal with this "modicum of initial consent" issue.
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RE: Initial Negotiations - 4/18/2006 6:57:16 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		This might sound trite, but I asked, literally, hundreds and hundreds of questions before ever risking life & limb with Himself. Better to have a list of 1000 than not have something on a list which you'll need later on. Best course of action, know yourself and know your other. You can always take things off the list later. One of the easiest things to do is simply state that anything that is not specifically consented to prior to engaging, is up for discussion and negotiation. Eventually, hopefully, you won't even need that anymore but allows for some flexibility when you run across things you've never heard of but may want to try.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to ladychatterley)
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RE: Initial Negotiations - 4/18/2006 7:12:24 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		I will actually try to answer this in kind.

It is difficult to say what you will and won't do, where you are today is not where you will be tomorrow.  The whom has summitch to do with it as well.  However, nearly all here exclaim publicly, no animals; no children and such (there have been a few emails I have recieved times past that puts the lie to this).

When you apply for the job and everything in the main seems right, then you wanna negotiate perks, not assuming a damn thing. 

However here is what I assume, you are 34, the doms that were cutting ears off were around your age....That is a little young to be out of prison for murder, right? I mean we can assume it was theoretical one-upmanship and not reflections of the past-life outside.......oooooooohhhhhhhhhh...you see?

Some will acquiesce and some will take your silence as acquiescence.  It runs the gamut.

Trust that everybody plays the game square, for the most part; but cut the cards anyway.

Ron 

  

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to ladychatterley)
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RE: Initial Negotiations - 4/18/2006 7:18:02 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		You don't have to go into serious detail or even long conversations unless it gets your blood going or is a serious issue for you.  A simple "So what about body mutilation?" can be an easy way to go.

It's always better to have the conversation than to NOT have the conversation.  I'd only worry if the person sounded like they were specifically trying to trap you into something or specifically avoiding a topic.

MOST people in the world are not into 70% of the kinks out there.  MOST people will never have to reasonably face the question "Do I throw myself into that moving bus?"

But it never hurts to ask.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to ladychatterley)
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RE: Initial Negotiations - 4/18/2006 7:22:14 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
MOST people will never have to reasonably face the question "Do I throw myself into that moving bus?"

I could see this as a small sub-culture kink maybe, but I also have to think that most wouldn't be able to do this enough to actually raise it to fetish level.

Astoundedly,
Ron 

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Initial Negotiations - 4/19/2006 5:58:10 AM   
Lashra


Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
MOST people will never have to reasonably face the question "Do I throw myself into that moving bus?"

I could see this as a small sub-culture kink maybe, but I also have to think that most wouldn't be able to do this enough to actually raise it to fetish level.

Astoundedly,
Ron 


HAHAHHAHAHA  you never know

~Lashra

(in reply to mnottertail)
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RE: Initial Negotiations - 4/19/2006 8:02:20 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
MOST people will never have to reasonably face the question "Do I throw myself into that moving bus?"

I could see this as a small sub-culture kink maybe, but I also have to think that most wouldn't be able to do this enough to actually raise it to fetish level.

Astoundedly,
Ron 
You just made me laugh hard enough I nearly spilled by coffee 
I appreciated the mention of discussing whether another person considers limits as far as body scarification (what are "welts, bruising, cuts or burns that they'd consider "too extreme"a limit or not (if they haven't already made it clear).

I've had fantasies about branding, for instance, but have Fireplay listed as a TOLERATES for me because it really scares me in some ways (but have not tries it so maybe it shouldn't be there at all, though I did say I was a "Beginner").
I'd reading a lot more about it if I thought it was a serious possibility with someone else before I ever said yes. I can feel how I think it might feel (if that makes sense) and can imagine it might feel good in some ways. I guess mostly what would feel good is trusting the other person cared enough to want to see me trust them. But - that doesn't mean that's how it actually would feel, or mean I'd be emotionally "prepared" for it - unless I did trust the other person. I do know a "leap of faith" would be required on my part (and I know there are threads on branding here at CM). 

- SusanofO

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/19/2006 8:48:51 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to mnottertail)
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RE: Initial Negotiations - 4/19/2006 8:44:57 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		I think alot of people get hung up on the "Limit List"  Lots of things can be on your list and still send you thru the roof...

IE.  A few weeks ago I did an intense abrasion scene on kyra.  All over her body  I used a wire brush, dog brush, fish gloves, my nails ... her skin was to say the least was rubbed raw... many places she was bleeding ever so gently.  Now the play itself was very enjoyable for her... she was flying high and enjoying the pains and pleasures of the experience.  The next morning... I decide to do some more play... but this time I very gently carass her body.  slow running my fingers along her very sensitive flesh.  In 15 minutes she was crying and gasping,  I pushed her little farther and finally stopped.  She was a mess... such a simple play that gave her sensations much more than she could of thought possible.  so how do you limit that? 

Some use safe words to stop play... kyra has none. and in the example... she was struggling to talk let alone use a safe word.  In the end... I suggest you learn as much about your partner as possible.  Not just what they like to do... but the standards, morals, principles, etc etc that they live by.  Understand what it means to them about consent... understand what they thing a limit is... and boundaries... what do they think are soft limits.. if they exist to them etc etc etc.  learn and ask questions.  Know the person... Not just the Play!

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to ladychatterley)
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RE: Initial Negotiations - 4/19/2006 8:53:40 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

Lots of things can be on your list and still send you thru the roof... 

*Hearing this is encouraging(I can imagine that (some of mine are things I list as TOLERATES and DISLIKES)

Understand what it means to them about consent... understand what they thing a limit is... and boundaries... what do they think are soft limits.. if they exist to them 

*I had a Safeword with the person who introduced BDSM activity to me (but never used it because I really did trust them). They knew what I'd consider "going to far" as far as using belts on me. A few times they increased a previously established number of swats they said they'd give me without telling me but - on a previous occasion they'd establisehd I could handle that so the "surprise" was that they went "further" but already establised as best they could that it would not harm me emotionally.  

*I hear people talk about how they know what the other person considers "the edge" and that it can be pushed even if a Dom or Master hasn't explicity told a submissive or a slave why they are doing what they are doing it and it's a "surprise" (in which case I am assuming they've communicated and "read eachother" well enough over a span  of time to know eachother's nuances as far as personality pretty well and a slave trusts the Master to read hers).
 - SusanofO

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/19/2006 9:18:10 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Initial Negotiations - 4/19/2006 8:53:40 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

I've had fantasies about branding, for instance, but have Fireplay listed as a TOLERATES for me because it really scares me in some ways (but have not tries it so maybe it shouldn't be there at all, though I did say I was a "Beginner").


Fireplay for me is a very sensual and gentle play.  I go to a swing club here every once in awhile and I will do fire play on 3-4 new people a night.  Some are rather timid at first to try it.. others are darn right scared to... but they all become alittle braver as they watch others walk away with a smile.  Of cours some will never try it. and then there are those like my bottom denika that was told to get her butt on the table.  denika has a intense fear of fire... and was very scared of it.  She watched me do a number of fire play scenes before I told her that it was her turn.  She is not as afraid, but she not as scared... of course her trust in me is pretty high and don't expect anyone else will ever get fire near her.



_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Initial Negotiations - 4/19/2006 11:35:28 AM   
proudsub


Posts: 6142
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
Status: offline 		If you don't want to detail a limits list you can generalize and make  a limit be any activity that will cause cause you permanent harm or damage, and then give exceptions for things like branding if you are interested in that. Also any specific activity should be consensual whether it is listed as a limit or not. JMHO

_____________________________

proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan


(in reply to ladychatterley)
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RE: Initial Negotiations - 4/19/2006 12:55:18 PM   
denika


Posts: 619
Joined: 8/30/2005
Status: offline 		I know there are a few sights out there that offer lists you can down load, I know it sounds a bit sterile but a list of likes, dislikes, fears can help start the conversation moving towards  setting and finding your limits. When you are with the right person you can start to push and explore those limits.

I have the utmost trust and respect for Knight so there are no set limits of things I will or won't do.  We talked early on about some of my fears, fire being the greatest one. I've never been burned but I have treated burn patients those images have stayed with me. He helped me face a fear by pushing what would be considered a limit And I am stronger for it.   
Anyone else even attempted to come near me with something flaming is more than likely going to need an ambulance of their own *s*  Or else have to  try and catch me. For a chubby girl I can run fast when scared *g*

The best thing you can do is talk, talk and more talk.

denika

_____________________________
"fear profits man nothing" m.Crichton 13 Warriors


(in reply to ladychatterley)
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RE: Initial Negotiations - 4/19/2006 2:21:53 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Well you missed the real lesson focusing on the details.

The real lesson in that debate is the first thing you have to do is establish what the philosophy of the person is, are they  the kind that deals with anything not specificly prohibited is allowed, or are they a Things will come up and when they do you can trust that I will keep your safety foremost in my mind, or whatever type of Dominant they are.

If you get the philosophy and the ethical structure they work from then you work from there. If you work it the other way then you get the confussion and hesitation you feel now.

Get to know the ethical aand moral philosophy, get to know the format of D/s or M/s they use and the values behind it. Only if those things match does it stand a chance in the long term.

In Leather

Archer


(in reply to ladychatterley)
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RE: Initial Negotiations - 4/19/2006 7:50:55 PM   
Mavis


Posts: 828
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

IE.  A few weeks ago I did an intense abrasion scene on kyra.  All over her body  I used a wire brush, dog brush, fish gloves, my nails ... her skin was to say the least was rubbed raw... many places she was bleeding ever so gently.  Now the play itself was very enjoyable for her... she was flying high and enjoying the pains and pleasures of the experience.  The next morning... I decide to do some more play... but this time I very gently carass her body.  slow running my fingers along her very sensitive flesh.  In 15 minutes she was crying and gasping,  I pushed her little farther and finally stopped.  She was a mess... such a simple play that gave her sensations much more than she could of thought possible.  so how do you limit that? 

yum.  very lucky girl. (s)
quote:


I suggest you learn as much about your partner as possible.  Not just what they like to do... but the standards, morals, principles, etc etc that they live by.  Understand what it means to them about consent... understand what they thing a limit is... and boundaries... what do they think are soft limits.. if they exist to them etc etc etc.  learn and ask questions.  Know the person... Not just the Play!


yes, exactly.  it's sounds as if You have a wondwerful family, KoM.  If only everyone understood this concept about knowing what their partner (s) lives by.  

(in reply to KnightofMists)
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RE: Initial Negotiations - 4/19/2006 9:19:15 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		Helpful comment, Archer. - SusanofO

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/19/2006 9:21:33 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Initial Negotiations - 4/19/2006 9:26:00 PM   
akisha


Posts: 2071
Joined: 6/25/2005
Status: offline 		i agree with Knight, the best thing is to know the person you are with. As a Dom you have to be able to read the person you are playing and the sub needs to be confident in the fact that the dom would not cause them true harm. As of yet, i have not ever used a safe word.

i'm pretty open to things, even things that scare me. but i know that needles make me panic in a very big very real way. i rarely if ever cry and when confronted with a needle during a proceedure at the hopital once, that i was not pre-warned and prepared for, cause me to have a complete breakdown. i know and anyone that i play with will know right off that this is something i am not willing to try and probably will never be willing to try. It just triggers something really bad in my mind.

I've never met someone and handed them a "list" of limits though *g* i find sitting and talking with people you learn alot more about them and in a more enjoyable manner. Plus be willing to ask anything you think is important. Your safety always has to come first so be picky and smart.

_____________________________

I'm confused.... No wait!!! Maybe I'm not

It's not a blonde moment! It's momentary peroxide posioning. ;)

Your pain makes me smile ~ Happy Bunny

532-095-649

(in reply to Mavis)
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RE: Initial Negotiations - 4/20/2006 7:40:13 AM   
amayos


Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline 		The peppy mantra of "Safe, Sane and Consensual" is indeed a nebulous concept to gird dominance and submission around. One of my girls once wrote an article on that very subject that describes in surface terms how relative it really is ( http://www.humbledfemales.com/ssc.html )

Detailed discussion of desire and personal philosophy is imperative, and in my mind there should never be a limit on questions you ask a potential Master. I always let any girl who seeks to serve me know that I not only welcome her questions, but actually enjoy them; this is what makes good communication in the very least. My advice is to assume nothing and address any of your concerns openly and honestly. Good communicators welcome curiosity—they never shun it.

(in reply to ladychatterley)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Initial Negotiations - 4/20/2006 8:16:01 AM   
fyreredsub


Posts: 3403
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline 		Mistress and this girl were having a discussion of some of the things this girl likes with regard to what she would like to see happen when she comes out for her visit, checking compatability factors, things this girl feels safe with so to speak.
Mistress and this girl discovered that there is a great love of knife play, yet this girl has never done it blindfolded and Mistress explained how she and Master would push this ones limits over time as trust and bonding grows.
Master/Mistress do not expect this girl to be able to do fireplay immediatley but this girl knows the time will come ,perhaps not in the second or third visit,lol, but by the time this girl begs collar it is her Owners right to push and exceed the original limits this one had...
she knows ahead of time ...what will be expected of her and if it is something she will/can deal with. no secrets , no surprises....
Allowing the time to have trust grow as we all bond, lets this girl know she is in safe hands when she does consent to giving up all her of  her control in her life to her Owners.

truly it is a concept of Owners do have the right to do with their property as they see fit.................
one should hope to find Owners that take that responsibility seriously and do not wish harm on their property


_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

(in reply to ladychatterley)
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RE: Initial Negotiations - 4/20/2006 12:16:29 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

Detailed discussion of desire and personal philosophy is imperative, and in my mind there should never be a limit on questions you ask a potential Master. I always let any girl who seeks to serve me know that I not only welcome her questions, but actually enjoy them; this is what makes good communication in the very least. My advice is to assume nothing and address any of your concerns openly and honestly. Good communicators welcome curiosity—they never shun it.


Again you and he share a similarity.  Like you, he welcomed all questions and never grew tired of them (i contend that he found some rather amusing).  Like Celeste, i asked a gazillion questions - some which were about specific acts, and some which were more broad-based, to understand his thought process and what he values.  Knowing how his mind works, and the concept of how he would care for a push a slave, i had understanding, trust and confidence by the time i begged ownership and later, his collar.

(in reply to amayos)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Initial Negotiations - 4/20/2006 1:11:30 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

"Safe, Sane and Consensual"


Don't worry, we fans of Amayos know its really, MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY.

(in reply to amayos)
Profile   Post #: 20
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