in wonder........ how much affirmation is required (Full Version)

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quietWonder -> in wonder........ how much affirmation is required (4/18/2006 9:24:38 PM)

Doesn't really matter whom answers/responds to this, as i am certain you all have individual preferences and/or experiences in these inquiries.

First, i am abit courious how many use and/or experience the 'make the other feel quilty' syndrome to get a rise from their sub/slave?  imo this is insulting and really makes me question the validity of the Dom/Master, especially when the projected image in my belief is that He should be One above these games.

Secondly, affirmation of loyality.  Now how often is it necessary for a sub/slave to sprinkle showers of adorning verbal gerbish upon a Dom/Master for Him to know He is in a subs interest.  imo constantly whitewashing the board gets abit boring and meaningless, and makes me question a Dom/Masters strength.

Darn, perhaps my perception of what i believe a Dom/Master personality traits of strength, inner and outer, are only figments of my imagination.



BitaTruble -> RE: in wonder........ how much affirmation is required (4/18/2006 9:36:57 PM)

I'll be honest here. I'm a little lost as to what you are asking so I'll have to pass and see what other answers come through so I can get a clue here.

Celeste



valeca -> RE: in wonder........ how much affirmation is required (4/18/2006 9:46:30 PM)

What I'm getting from your post is that someone laid a guilt trip on you because you didn't flatter them enough, or speak of your utter devotion in many and flowery words.

If that's correct, the answers to the questions are something that can really only be answered between the two invloved.  What's enough for one to give/receive, won't always match what's enough for another to give/receive. The guilt thing may be acceptable practice in one relationship, while in another, it's out of bounds.



slavejali -> RE: in wonder........ how much affirmation is required (4/18/2006 10:24:28 PM)

quote:

First, i am abit courious how many use and/or experience the 'make the other feel quilty' syndrome to get a rise from their sub/slave?  imo this is insulting and really makes me question the validity of the Dom/Master, especially when the projected image in my belief is that He should be One above these games.

 
If the Dom is doing it to play with their submissive, sure why not. However, f they are doing it from a personality weakness it would be insulting to me too.
 
quote:

Secondly, affirmation of loyality.  Now how often is it necessary for a sub/slave to sprinkle showers of adorning verbal gerbish upon a Dom/Master for Him to know He is in a subs interest.  imo constantly whitewashing the board gets abit boring and meaningless, and makes me question a Dom/Masters strength.

 
If a Dom needs affirmation ALL the time due to insecurity within himself or herself ...well that just isnt a very dominant type attribute hey. If they expect it as part of their protocal, why not, if its what rocks a Doms boat to have those kinda things said to them.
 
quote:

Darn, perhaps my perception of what i believe a Dom/Master personality traits of strength, inner and outer, are only figments of my imagination.

 
Doms are no different from anyone else, they have weaknesses....too many though and its a bit hard to remain in a dominant position.



classykindasassy -> RE: in wonder........ how much affirmation is required (4/18/2006 10:32:15 PM)

looks like you are asking about people who use manipulation (dom) or kissing ass (sub) to get what they want.

What is the point? Takes too much energy in my book. If you can't play it straight and authentic (excepting role play for the fun of it) and cause what you want. my best advice is: get a life.



quietWonder -> RE: in wonder........ how much affirmation is required (4/18/2006 10:55:33 PM)

Sorry perhaps part of the reason for confusion to my questions is because i am becoming confused in my own perception of what i began thinking the type of personality that could own me through my own allowance.  now i find that in this journey to define that ideal relationship (i know i may be dreaming of ideals that don't exist), these earlier well defined definitions are being exploited.  i think that perhaps when i open myself and express the weakness i have with another, that all of a sudden i am being confonted with things such as the guilt trip syndrome in order to get a rise from me, or get reaction although i did feel that the expression in conversation was well stated between me and the Other.  And in knowing such, the action 'guilt' was double handly thrown back at me without warrant.  Now that action caused me to be courious as to wether or not this was a normal practice in the process of attaining submission.  Not that i personally believe it is, because in my my perspective it has become nothing more than manipulation of the other, that in turn in time will turn into nothing more than resentment.  it is not something that was in my perspective being a positive strength of a Dom/Master but perhaps more of a weakness.  i guess in essence i seek further perspective from others in the generic D/s ideals which i do understand are 'personal' but in many instances i often read comments that if a Dom/Master acts like this and / or like that they are no Dom/Master. 

I further understand that everyone is not without weakness and fault and that in order to grow and to flourish we feed from each other to gain those things that actuate our lives and make us stronger and better as whole people.  But how far do we pull and push to gain that recognition from another before it just becomes unacceptable and / or childish.  As yes i know this is a personal thing also, but again when is a Dom/Master a true and real Dom/Master as i just don't believe because a man is good with a wand, a whip, a flogger, etc. that he is such.  There is in my mind a personality that truely must portray a strength of will, survival, wit, and knowledge above all else to truely Master ones life.  Perhaps this is hypocritical for me to think.

These questions and your responses only help me further structure my ideals and my own expectations and placing them closer to realilty in which they may not be right now (knights in shining armour lol okay a girl can dream can't she, just kidding well kind of and not totally out of scope in a more contempory setting).  So any response is welcome.



IronBear -> RE: in wonder........ how much affirmation is required (4/18/2006 11:10:50 PM)

If you are in a subordinant possition to me irrespective of collar or not, life style or not. For me to use guilt trips on you generally would be an abuse of power, authority and privilage and seen as dishonourable and cowardly. If we had a close relationshhip, I may well do somethig similar or just rubbish you, but this would be in a light hearted manner and accompanied with grins. In other words because of our close relationship, you would know I was stiring and would expect it to be reciprocated .

I just may require you to lavish adoration and praises over me if the latter part of the former paragraph was occuring. It would be appreciated if you made some pleasant comment when I had completed a new work or a difficult task. Sure I like to be told I am loved. Neets and I don't head to bed without telling each other we love one another of she goes out for the day. (Who knows if this is the last time we'll see each other alive?). IMO, I'll see you love and adoration in the grace and beauty of your service, your obedience, your going above and beyond and in your eyes. You will see my love in the way you're handled and treated....Not spoiled or coddled, but in my Mastery of you and my possessing you totally....



BlkTallFullfig -> RE: in wonder........ how much affirmation is required (4/18/2006 11:49:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: quietWonder
Secondly, affirmation of loyality.  Now how often is it necessary for a sub/slave to sprinkle showers of adorning verbal gerbish upon a Dom/Master for Him to know He is in a subs interest.  imo constantly whitewashing the board gets abit boring and meaningless, and makes me question a Dom/Masters strength.

Darn, perhaps my perception of what i believe a Dom/Master personality traits of strength, inner and outer, are only figments of my imagination.
So you are with someone who needs or wants more attention and affection than you are interested in/willing to give?   Or you're jealous of how affectionate others are, and find int appauling that Dominant folk may need/love attention and praise?

I'm not sure what it is you are asking either, but everyone has needs, and if your dom nees/wants more than you can give, you two ought to sit down and discuss that.  
It's true some folks are very insecure (indeed a characteristic not becoming a dominant), and need more than anyone can ever give, but you usually discover that within a short time, before deciding to enter into a Dom/sub relationship, and can choose to stay or leave according to your needs.  
Seriously sometimes it's a matter of how much you are into someone, and even than, if you find excessive emotional damage/'baggage (which we all have, but we all know how much is enough for us to live with), than you have to make the decision to move on since you aren't a therapist, and are likely not going to get your needs met.   M



ownedgirlie -> RE: in wonder........ how much affirmation is required (4/18/2006 11:55:32 PM)

i tell my Master all the time how much i adore him.  He enjoys it.  Neither of us consider it "gerbish," because we both know the sincerity behind my words.  Such accolades do not "affirm" him, but they make him feel good to have a slave that adores him so much.  i don't see anything wrong with that, personally.

He doesn't play guilt trip games, as he is direct and up front about what he thinks. Moot point here.



MrDiscipline44 -> RE: in wonder........ how much affirmation is required (4/19/2006 6:46:31 AM)

Guilt trips are done all the time in many different ways. Subbies and slaves that say "Nothing is worse then when my Dom/Master is disappointed in me." being guilted by their Dom/Master or even just guilting themselves into behaving correctly. It happens all the time.



Proprietrix -> RE: in wonder........ how much affirmation is required (4/19/2006 7:04:01 AM)

Although I too, don't fully understand the questions at hand, from what I'm guessing, they are:

Is it ok for a Dominant to use guilt trips?
and
How much should a sub have to compliment a Dominant?

And my answer to both of these is:
It depends on the dynamics of the two people involved, the consensuality of these types of things being used/done, and the general happiness level.

Usually people post TMI here in their questions. I think in this particular case, there just wasn't enough information about the specifics of the situation. (How long have they been together? Is it a TPE relationship? Live-in? On-line? Casual play partners? Was the guilt being used to manipulate or was it being used to promote growth? Is there regular communication and discussion?)
Just too many variables that we don't know about the "what" to make any kind of guess on the "why".



ShiftedJewel -> RE: in wonder........ how much affirmation is required (4/19/2006 7:07:43 AM)

I think what she is saying is that when she was speaking to a dominant, not her dominant, just talking to someone that claimed to be a dominant (I'm trying to be clear here.... lol) that the person basically threw a guilt trip at her in an attempt to get a rise out of her because he/she knew of quietwonders weakness concerning another.

Anyway, quietwonder... no, I personally do not think it is either normal or healthy that someone that is not holding your collar should use guilt to get your attention or a rise out of you. Any dominant that uses that kind of manipulation in order to obtain a submissive's attention isn't looking for a healthy D/s or M/s relationship, they are looking for power and control of that person. Just my opinion.



quietWonder -> RE: in wonder........ how much affirmation is required (4/19/2006 7:36:03 AM)

BlkTallFullfig part of your response 'So you are with someone who needs or wants more attention and affection than you are interested in/willing to give?   Or you're jealous of how affectionate others are, and find int appauling that Dominant folk may need/love attention and praise?' is very interesting

Well in actuality i am not with someOne, i have been talking with someOne, but by no means with them or theirs.  And perhaps your statements are very true, perhaps it is an issue of whether i am willing to give them the amount of affectionate whitewash they desire. i believe actions speak volumes and we learn as people words to use to appease anothers senses, however there are many words that have lost real value to me as i have found them overused and almost stale dated words used by default.  Now an example in my present is this word love, to each it has its own merits but what does it really mean.  If you love cornflakes do you really find passion from cornflakes in the morning, or do you enjoy the taste, crunch, etc. of the cornflakes and have mistakenly used some other supposedly highly charged deep word like love to describe it.  Hummmmm you raise a good point in wether it is my desire to be with them.

For the jealousy assumption, no actually i honestly am not interested in the tongue and verbal dance between others.  So jealousy is not an issue in that regards.

MrDiscipline44, yes in some respects i suppose i would agree.  But then i ponder how.  i can see a sub/slave feeling guilty cause they could not attain a level they believed their Dom/Master desired and would be pleased with.  But in that respect would it not be a personally inflicted guilt trip because one is not reaching a level of expectation they know or sense is expected.  its like trying to reach the stars because the Other you are with drives that desire in you to try to be the best you can be in all ways.  And not because they demand it of you but because in your own mind your desire to be pleasing becomes our own will.  i am sure some will understand completely else it will go swishing by.

All in all i can fully accept the fact that Dominant personalities require verbalized affirmation if that is a normal reality of Dominant people.  i am not a Dominant type so all you Dominants are totally confusing on the best and worst of days, hence a probable reason i remain as a free person until i understand fairly what i am getting into.  i am not one to just take a leap of faith in someOne that professes to be something they are, i just am not ready mentally for that challenge.  So in the meantime i listen and inquire and do thank everyone that has responded .......... all points have been noted as positive.  Thank you each again.  :)



quietWonder -> RE: in wonder........ how much affirmation is required (4/19/2006 7:44:24 AM)

ShiftedJewel i just could not say it better , Thank you kindly.  That is exactly the situation :)



MrDiscipline44 -> RE: in wonder........ how much affirmation is required (4/19/2006 7:51:41 AM)

But if that Dom/Master your with "drives the desire" within you, is it not then his demand of you to reach for those stars? This is nothing more then a practice in semantics. Regardless of how you say it, it still falls down to him expecting you to do or act a certain way/thing, and you either complying or failing at it. Thus invoking the guilt to do better.

And if you fail in that reach, whether you are guilting yourself or he is doing it for you, it is guilting you all the same to do better and achieve more. External or internal, it is still manipulation. the only difference is the one we make for ourselves. You may not like the external but for others it is still an effective tool. Others find the external less effective and rely on the internal.



twicehappy -> RE: in wonder........ how much affirmation is required (4/19/2006 8:16:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: quietWonder

First, i am abit courious how many use and/or experience the 'make the other feel quilty' syndrome to get a rise from their sub/slave? 


While i have never experienced this i have seen this. Personally i would not be collared to anyone who used this tactic. To me this shows a lack of self confidence on the Dom's/Domme's part.

If i fail to do something or fail to do it correctly i make myself feel bad enough for three people and my owners know this. 


quote:

Secondly, affirmation of loyality.  Now how often is it necessary for a sub/slave to sprinkle showers of adorning verbal gerbish upon a Dom/Master for Him to know He is in a subs interest.  imo constantly whitewashing the board gets abit boring and meaningless, and makes me question a Dom/Masters strength. 


There should be no hard and fast rule on this one. I will admit i am guilty of praising my pair often both on the boards and in person. Praising them with everything from "nice butt" to "what a great mind" or a simple "i love you" comes naturally and from the heart. Never is it forced or even given a great deal of thought on my part, i simply adore them both.

To me if a sub/slave has to make a conscious effort to praise their owner something is just not clicking in that relationship.



CrappyDom -> RE: in wonder........ how much affirmation is required (4/19/2006 8:34:52 AM)

The reason us dominants are confusing is you we are human, and as humans we are all different, we all have strengths and weakness, desires and needs.

Another confusing factor is many paint these fabulous images of what a "true" dominant is and then point at it and say "thats me" as if there is some universal standard. 

I don't need much in the way of verbal affirmations but I do need physical ones.  An important way for me to feel love is through touch, a caress here, a soft shy look, a woman curled up against my feet.  Those thinks communicate "I adore you" much more strongly than the words alone would do.

But that is me.  Some get that same feeling by having a cold hard sub say little if anything, something the dominant knows requires hard work. It varies...

When you sit down with your girlfriends and talk about what turns you on, what sort of touch you like, do you all agree on everything?  Somehow I doubt it, broad themes, some specifics here and there but no more.

All that said, if the dominant needs affirmations to fill a black hole in their psyche, that is another matter.  Experience is your only guide there.



enthralled -> RE: in wonder........ how much affirmation is required (4/19/2006 12:17:38 PM)

Oh god .... this is gonna hurt <lol>

First, no- I don't think it's healthy for anyone to constantly FEEL guilty nor a healthy way for anyone to get attention.

quote:

Now how often is it necessary for a sub/slave to sprinkle showers of adorning verbal gerbish upon a Dom/Master for Him to know He is in a subs interest.  imo constantly whitewashing the board gets abit boring and meaningless, and makes me question a Dom/Masters strength.

 
OK, this is where I'm going to get thrashed <lol>
Though I'm not privy to what your definition of 'constant' is, in my opinion,
I don't believe a Dominants 'need' for adoration or 'verbal gerbish' has anything to do in measuring his strength.
I feel one of my duties to my (hypothetical) Master would be to feed his ego.
Think about it, EVERYONE is insecure about something or another .... and dominants are HUMAN not gods. Having said that- we do things like sit at thier feet, shower them with adoration, stand in a corner when told, hold a leash in our mouth when we are unavailable for communication .... why? because they DO need/want that affirmation of our respect, loyalty and affection and we want to please them.
To say that a dominants need for affirmation of loyalty makes him weak is like saying that our obedience to them make US the lesser for it or our need for affirmation of thier love/need/desire for us make us weaker...... and I think I'm a damn tough soul! <lol>
Just my opinion ... and you know what those are worth! <G>

Respectfully,
enthralled



MstrFury -> RE: in wonder........ how much affirmation is required (4/19/2006 2:46:42 PM)

dynamics of the persons involved in whatever type of relationship....I had so much to say on this topic...that is until I read what -enthralled- remarked in the last part of her post....that generally sums it up from my point of view....



BlkTallFullfig -> RE: in wonder........ how much affirmation is required (4/19/2006 3:32:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: quietWonder
Well in actuality i am not with someOne, i have been talking with someOne, but by no means with them or theirs.  And perhaps your statements are very true, perhaps it is an issue of whether i am willing to give them the amount of affectionate whitewash they desire. i believe actions speak volumes and we learn as people words to use to appease anothers senses, however there are many words that have lost real value to me as i have found them overused and almost stale dated words used by default.  Now an example in my present is this word love, to each it has its own merits but what does it really mean.  If you love cornflakes do you really find passion from cornflakes in the morning, or do you enjoy the taste, crunch, etc. of the cornflakes and have mistakenly used some other supposedly highly charged deep word like love to describe it.  Hummmmm you raise a good point in wether it is my desire to be with them.
Thanks for clarifying QuietWonder.   I said those things because people are different, and it really becomes a matter of chemistry between two people, not just physical but psychic level.

Some people are very warm and affectionate, and tend to do better with others who enjoy warmth and affection.  Others are more cerebral and matter of fact; there are men and women who are comfortable never uttering "I think you're an awesome human being" or "I love you" beyond going to work and paying the bills, doing the dishes, cleaning the house, because that shows I care in his/her eyes.  Than there are those of who like (and perhaps need) much more than that.  What amount is normal or healthy is really up to each of us to determine. 
I say a little craziness is perfectly normal within my relationships, and I also feel I have a relatively firm grasp on reality and the boundaries within which I can live.   M



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