What's in it for you? (Full Version)

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apaganguy -> What's in it for you? (9/23/2004 6:19:10 AM)

Greetings, All!

This is my first post on here (or on any bdsm site). From my 'dom perspective', I've been trying to figure this out from faqs and guessing and talking to people individually and I'd like to ask this wider audience of people who I'm sure understand far better than I do:

While I can understand the need to serve others (I express this need myself through teaching and helping others with growth and healing) I haven't quite been able to wrap my brain around some of the other sub/slave behaviors, such as:

1) Why the pain stuff? For example, I"ve seen profiles with "I enjoy a good caning". Why? What do you get out of it? My guesses would include: sensory overload, endorphine rush, a way to get aftercare, sensory difference (like hitting yourself with a hammer, it feels so good when it stops), self-esteem issues (I deserve to be punished), subservience (it is an example of something Dom can do to sub, but not vice-versa), super-service (I'm so subservient, look how far I'll go to express it). Any of these even close to the mark? What's the lure from your side?

2) Benefits of humiliating? Aside from the physical pain, there is often psychological pain such as humiliation, degradation, etc.. What's the allure to this, or is it just the same issues as physical pain in a mental context?

3) Is "sub" just sexual? Does the need to serve extend into "mundane" life as well? Do subs often work in "service" jobs, such as nursing, teaching, social work, etc? Or do they typically (I know I'm generalizing, but bear with me) work in high-pressure jobs where the "joy of subbing" is to not have to make decisions any more? Could the "sub" tendencies be expressed non-sexually by working in a homeless shelter or a food kitchen or something similar, or is there a required sexual/sensual aspect to it for you/them?

4) Who's actually in charge? It seems that the top is ultimately controlled by the bottom, in that they must pay extreme attention to their care and safety, honoring safewords, trying to tailor a scene to their benefit, "manipulating" the sub/slave's life to help the sub get what they want out of it. If "being a slave is knowing you are cared for and loved and your interests are met and cared for", what is the equivalent quote for a top?. Basically: Is topping simply an illusion of control provided by the bottom?

Thank you for your insights into this. For me at least, I work best when I understand the "foundations" of how people act, why they do it, and what/how they benefit from it. While I understand my control/caring issues from the Dom side, I'm still trying to figure out how it is balanced on the sub/slave side.

I appreciate any insights you might be willing to share.

Blessed Be,

- Brian



theroebabe -> RE: What's in it for you? (9/23/2004 6:33:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: apaganguy

Greetings, All!

1) Why the pain stuff? For example, I"ve seen profiles with "I enjoy a good caning". Why? What do you get out of it? My guesses would include: sensory overload, endorphine rush, a way to get aftercare, sensory difference (like hitting yourself with a hammer, it feels so good when it stops), self-esteem issues (I deserve to be punished), subservience (it is an example of something Dom can do to sub, but not vice-versa), super-service (I'm so subservient, look how far I'll go to express it). Any of these even close to the mark? What's the lure from your side?

2) Benefits of humiliating? Aside from the physical pain, there is often psychological pain such as humiliation, degradation, etc.. What's the allure to this, or is it just the same issues as physical pain in a mental context?

3) Is "sub" just sexual? Does the need to serve extend into "mundane" life as well? Do subs often work in "service" jobs, such as nursing, teaching, social work, etc? Or do they typically (I know I'm generalizing, but bear with me) work in high-pressure jobs where the "joy of subbing" is to not have to make decisions any more? Could the "sub" tendencies be expressed non-sexually by working in a homeless shelter or a food kitchen or something similar, or is there a required sexual/sensual aspect to it for you/them?

4) Who's actually in charge? It seems that the top is ultimately controlled by the bottom, in that they must pay extreme attention to their care and safety, honoring safewords, trying to tailor a scene to their benefit, "manipulating" the sub/slave's life to help the sub get what they want out of it. If "being a slave is knowing you are cared for and loved and your interests are met and cared for", what is the equivalent quote for a top?. Basically: Is topping simply an illusion of control provided by the bottom?

I appreciate any insights you might be willing to share.

Blessed Be,

- Brian


Hi Brian

I will try and answer what these things mean to me:

1. i like pain i have been inflicting pain on myself for many years before realizing what i was doing. i am wired to be a masochist, it just is that way sometomes. and each of us has their own version as to what feels good.

2. humiliation some people find that it helps them emotionally, or thwey like to feel degraded by doing nasty drity things it gets them off.

3. service: there sre many who serve in a non sexual role. but serving is also a part of who i am, and the need to please that one is a mental area for me.

So i guess it comes down to this, different things turn different people on.



kiki blue -> RE: What's in it for you? (9/23/2004 9:29:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: apaganguy
1) Why the pain stuff? For example, I"ve seen profiles with "I enjoy a good caning". Why? What do you get out of it? My guesses would include: sensory overload, endorphine rush, a way to get aftercare, sensory difference (like hitting yourself with a hammer, it feels so good when it stops), self-esteem issues (I deserve to be punished), subservience (it is an example of something Dom can do to sub, but not vice-versa), super-service (I'm so subservient, look how far I'll go to express it). Any of these even close to the mark? What's the lure from your side?


"Why not?" is the simplest answer, I think. Because it's fun, it feels good. Why does chocolate taste so good? Why does it feel good to slide into bed after a good hot shower, into crisp, fresh new sheets? Why does watching a comedy and laughing leave you feeling happy? It's all good fun. It feeds a desire, a want.

I'm not into pain, but I enjoy the play. I like seeing what I can take, how it feels. I like to experiment and explore, to understand myself better. I like the interactions between myself and the top/s. Again, it's all good fun.

quote:


2) Benefits of humiliating? Aside from the physical pain, there is often psychological pain such as humiliation, degradation, etc.. What's the allure to this, or is it just the same issues as physical pain in a mental context?


Humiliating can cause one to feel humbled, to put one into ones place. To remind you of where you chose to be. Degredation is very different to humiliation, and both should be handled with care, imo. What's humilating to one is exciting to another, and vice versa.

quote:


3) Is "sub" just sexual?


It can be, but isn't always.

quote:


Does the need to serve extend into "mundane" life as well? Do subs often work in "service" jobs, such as nursing, teaching, social work, etc? Or do they typically (I know I'm generalizing, but bear with me) work in high-pressure jobs where the "joy of subbing" is to not have to make decisions any more? Could the "sub" tendencies be expressed non-sexually by working in a homeless shelter or a food kitchen or something similar, or is there a required sexual/sensual aspect to it for you/them?


I don't consider myself to be submissive, though from time to time I enjoy those feelings. Being submissive is part of who you are, same as being dominant. It may or may not follow through into your line of work. Submitting isn't always all about sex, or sexual needs. Quite often it can be what makes you hard or wet, but more often tends to give the warm fuzzies.

quote:


4) Who's actually in charge? It seems that the top is ultimately controlled by the bottom, in that they must pay extreme attention to their care and safety, honoring safewords, trying to tailor a scene to their benefit, "manipulating" the sub/slave's life to help the sub get what they want out of it. If "being a slave is knowing you are cared for and loved and your interests are met and cared for", what is the equivalent quote for a top?. Basically: Is topping simply an illusion of control provided by the bottom?


I give someone else final authority over me, when I choose to submit. I'm allowed input, observations, and to state feelings, but I prefer someone else having the authority.

Being a dominant is not about ensuring you are meeting the sub or slaves wants and desires. You should be meeting their needs, but imo, a dominant gets to decide whether they indulge in allowing wants and desires to be met. Being a slave isn't about being an adored, cherished object up on a pedestal, it's a mindset, a need to be owned (imo, anyway). You may very well be cherished and adored, but you've allowed someone else to have control, and as such, aren't in control of the relationship.



Mercnbeth -> RE: What's in it for you? (9/23/2004 11:45:39 AM)

Brian,
I looked at your profile before replying to your post. I was glad to see that you honestly represented your limited experience as a Dom in real time.

That said, the questions you pose should be the outline of a book or at least a magazine article; "What A Dom MUST Know To Be A Dom". And the interesting thing about it is, there are MANY answers for each of these four questions. And for questions #1 and #2, many submissives don't know the answers themselves. But a good Dom will help them understand the whys, guiding them, and appreciating these needs.

It would take pages to answer your questions correctly in detail, but I'll try to give you my thumbnail answer. As a result I'm sure somethings I don't flesh out will generate a whole bunch of "yeah - but..." responses. But like I said, to really answer and account for all the "yeah-buts..." it would take more then this space of this forum.

For #1 and #2 I suggest you look up and read about catharsis. Many times a sub gets a cathartic release from either of these experiences. They are relative in that the express the same need of purging pent up feelings or frustrations, but #1 is the physical sensation while #2 is emotional or mental. Both are a means to an end. Again, not in all cases, but it is one of the many answers for your question. I've once saw a demonstration of a "Cathartic Flogging" and it was very insightful regarding this subject. Now for advanced Dom-ing find out WHY the submissive needs the cathartic experience.

#3 Yes / no and sometimes. You must know your sub and the situation. And I have seen corporate executive who only serve their pocketbook during the day as the most submissive serving sub at night. Conversely a waiter or customer service clerk who for 40 hours serves becomes a fierce Dom/me in their spare time. Sometimes life does not mess with lifestyle. Know thy sub!

#4 Me! And that includes the care of my sub or in my case my slave. I don't believe in safe-words (Send the pillaring emails to my profile!). If I need a safe-word to play with a sub I need to know my sub more or my own skills more. My goal in a session is for my partner to be free to experience the session without worrying about her safe-word. And being the sadist I am, if someone said they wanted to play and use the standard 'Green, Yellow, RED!"; instead of reading the body language and response, I'd be challenged to at least get to a dark sunset red shade of yellow.

So you still want to be a Master/Dom???

Learn! Keep learning EVERY day, from as many sources as possible. It takes dedication and learning skills. I don't think you can be a dumb Dom or at least a dumb good Dom. And based on my experience I don't believe there are any dumb submissives or slaves. I have come to believe that identifying yourself and more importantly LIVING as either a Dom or submissive takes self awareness that only comes from higher intelligence.

So commit yourself to keep asking questions and learning. And once you believe you have gotten to the point of knowing your convictions seek out other to challenge them. Even after many years I try to live by that ambition. I'm disappointed if the days ends without learning SOMETHING even if it's what NOT to do. And never belief you've learned it all. Confidence is one of the most important traits to have as a Dom. And the best display of confidence is something you've already illustrated; asking questions about what you don't know or understand.

Damn, this has gone on and on - sorry, but I thought your questions worth more then a quick reply.

Good luck in your journey. Have fun & enjoy!

Merc



NoCalOwner -> RE: What's in it for you? (9/23/2004 12:16:43 PM)

OK, I'll try my hand at this now, since I have a little different perspective.

quote:

ORIGINAL: apaganguy
1) Why the pain stuff?

Pain is not necessary for a D/s relationship. There are a lot of people with sadistic or masochistic tendencies, and certainly plenty of them here. But D/s works alone, bondage works alone, and S&M can work alone. While a lot of people seem to like D/s as a framework for S&M, D/s people don't always want to throw in pain. Not sadistic? Not a problem. Just realize that you won't be compatible with pain slut subs.
quote:


2) Benefits of humiliating?

Same as the above. Don't like it? Don't do it.
quote:


3) Is "sub" just sexual?

For most of us here, no. But it can be if you like, lots of people never take it out of the bedroom. Whether that's truly being D/s or not is in the eye of the beholder.
quote:


4) Who's actually in charge?

The Dom is. To give a vanilla parallel (which may barely be analogous at all, depending on the relationship), who is in charge, a little kid or their parent? Being a kid should also be about "knowing you are cared for and loved and your interests are met and cared for," but that doesn't mean that your kids are topping you. Kids will try to top from the bottom, but only bad parents let them.

I pamper my car, too, but it's definitely submitting to me.

This is not necessarily universal, though. If you aren't full time D/s, have a lot of contractual limits, and/or hear safewords all the time, your circumstances are unfamiliar to me, and my perspective may not be relevent.



newflowers -> RE: What's in it for you? (9/23/2004 3:09:30 PM)

quote:

1) Why the pain stuff?
2) Benefits of humiliating?


I classify these two - pain and humiliation - together. Though spanking can be nice and floggings sometimes voluptous as a prelude to and/or during sex, I do not consider myself a particular pain slut. Pain and humiliation are definitive indicators of control. Within the D/s dynamic, being controlled is one of the aspects I most enjoy and need. I have found that regardless of a dominant's previous experience, it is not that easy. Most often I am fairly agreeable and obedient, but there are times when I am not, when I simply do not want to and it is at those times that I will because of the recognition of greater strength of my partner. I am small enough that it would be possible to physically force me to do something and that proves only that one is bigger, but when one is able to enter my mind and my heart, that is not necessarily a skill acquired in martial arts or through gym worlouts, it is more to do with knowing me and being able to control me because of that knowledge and acceptance of what it found inside of me.

Pain and humiliation, for me, are about sensation and control.

quote:

3) Is "sub" just sexual? Does the need to serve extend into "mundane" life as well?


For me, not at all is being submissve just sexual, for others maybe/sometimes, and for others still - yes and no. As Merc indicated, it is a matter of knowing your submisssive.

Being a submissive is part of who I am and, within interpersonal relationships, the D/s dynamic is how I best relate as ultimately, it is with the complementary half that my submissive nature is made complete. This includes, but is not limited to, sex. Within the context of D/s, it is about more than sex, it is about pleasing, being found pleasing, the opportunity to do and be so. Service to anonymous individuals does not completely satisfy this need in me. I read an essay in which the author states the submissive looks for the intense and all-encompassing fulfillment - that is not a need that can be satisfied by job and volunteer work - at least not for me.

My career is one that you list and I find it amusing when I see it and the others as "typical" submissive careers as opposed the the "high pressure jobs" that I could have as an alternative. "Nursing, teaching, social work" can be as "high pressure" and intense requiring on the spot decisions that have long-lasting impact on others. These may be service oriented, but they are also much more than that as well. My career is more about my individual ability to effect positive change and make a diiference for a series of individuals and less about serving.

It is possible that you've already received the best possibel advice here - "Know thy sub" as we are individuals who cannot be classified by career or volunteer work choices.


quote:

4) Who's actually in charge? Basically: Is topping simply an illusion of control provided by the bottom?


In the dynamic I've had in the past and want in the future, the Dominant is in control. If I do not trust sufficiently that I must monitor his actions, then I would not be with him. I should qualify that with saying that I do not "play" or "scene" outside of a relationship. Were I a submissive or "bottom" who did engage in such play, the answer would be different. He is not in control of only sessions of BDSM activity - to me that is more like sex games - he is in control of the various aspects of our lives. As a dominant, you indicate your need to control and that makes sense to you. For someone like me, I am the opposite of that coin, my need is to be controlled.

What do I get out of it - joy and peace and security and a safe place to please and be found pleasing, fun, acceptance... My needs are met as his are met in complement.

newflowers



MrThorns -> RE: What's in it for you? (9/23/2004 6:41:58 PM)

Why the pain stuff? Well, here may be one reason:
Some of the masochists I know enjoy subspace. That floaty, out-of-body euphoria that whisks them away into a very peaceful "headspace". The pain is a means of reaching that space.
Other masochists I know enjoy the intensity of the present. The here and now that the pain makes them very aware of. The thoughts and worries about past and future stressors cease to exist. The only thing that matters is the present.

Humiliation, in my mind, is a total reliquishing of control by a slave over a slave's actions. By placing him/her into a situation in which they would never have done of their own free will gives them a very powerful message that they are not in control. That release of control to a trusted person is one of the things that I believe draws many people into the submissive or slave portion of the power exchange.

Submissives work all kinds of jobs and come from a wide variety of backgrounds, but I know that there are slaves that work for their Masters in "mundane" life as bookkeepers, health-care assistants, jeez...you name it. It's not about sex, even though D/s is very sexual.

Who's in charge, I think, depends on the dynamics of the relationship. Yes, the submissive/slave is getting something from the relationship. If they weren't, why would they be there? Some relationships use safewords, some relationships have set limits that dictate what someone will or will not do... but not all relationships are the same. I am in charge of my particular relationship. I accept responsibility for my decisions and do my best to ensure the well being of my slave. She accepts my decisions and does her best to follow my instructions while taking responsibility for her own actions. Sure, sometimes I may adjust a scene so that it is more pleasureable for her, but that's my choice to make. If I just want to tie her up and do evil, evil things to my property...well then...that's what is going to happen.

Hope this helps,

~Thorns



proudsub -> RE: What's in it for you? (9/23/2004 9:25:18 PM)

I think everyone else answered you very well apaganguy. Each of your questions could be its own thread here and most have been covered in other threads. If you set your days at the top of the forum to 365 you can go back through all the old threads in each forum and read the ones that interest you.



ShrewWhisperer -> RE: What's in it for you? (9/24/2004 5:07:11 AM)

Merry Meet Paganguy,

I'll second what proudsub said, most of your questions have been answered pretty well by the folks above, mostly I wanted to say hey, and slowly wrap my mind around a pagan in a suit...nice suit though...I think I know 6 pagan men who have 4 suits between 'em, if somebody dies that they know, two are goin' hafta share.

People are what they are. Why folks get to their sexuality or how, it's an interesting investigation perhaps, but it can't be done collectively, it can only be done antecedontely...errrr can't spell that word and too lazy to look it up...um on a personal basis. But sometimes beyond the why a greater question looms, and that is how do we sate whatever the kink is.

Your profile reads like a man who has enough empathy to understand the needs of others and a maturity enough to accept your own limits and expand on your own strengths. and pretty much that is all there is to it. It is finding your yang, it is finding the matching domino, after that hold on and enjoy the ride. sometimes life can only be understood by doing it.



sting516 -> RE: What's in it for you? (9/24/2004 5:17:41 AM)

Pain or humiliation...for me, what i remember...and that which excites me after the fact, is the humiliation...that's what stays with me after a scene...pain fades...the knowledge of what the Domme can do to me...that leaves an imprint...and is what i think of later.


sting



Suleiman -> RE: What's in it for you? (9/24/2004 9:39:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: apaganguy

Greetings, All!

While I can understand the need to serve others (I express this need myself through teaching and helping others with growth and healing) I haven't quite been able to wrap my brain around some of the other sub/slave behaviors, such as:

1) Why the pain stuff?

2) Benefits of humiliating?

3) Is "sub" just sexual? Does the need to serve extend into "mundane" life as well?

4) Who's actually in charge?

- Brian


Obviously I can only respond for myself, but my answers for the following are:

1) I like pain. I also enjoy the cathartic release of a serious beating. I like letting go and relaxing my normally iron-clad self control, but I often need a little help doing so. I don't drink, and I don't do drugs, so being tied down and caned until I'm bloody is about the only way I can effectively let down my guard for a little while. I also enjoy serving a sadist - this is a sub thing, not a masochist thing. Some times the best way to prove that you are a good sub is to perform an unpleasant task or entertain your top in a manner that causes you physical or emotional discomfort.

2) I've never really understood the verbal humiliation thing. It's not something I do. I can get into it if it's my partner's kink, but only once in a while. I'm pretty sure I can only be called a "dirty cocksucker" a few times before I knock somebody's teeth out.

3) Sub is a large part of who I am. It's not the only part, but it is major. If I like somebody, I want to make them happy. I enjoy doing little things for other people. I'll find myself washing dishes when I'm visiting a friend's house, or cooking a completely new meal for a guest because something wasn't to their liking. When my wife gets home from work I'm right there at the door with a drink in hand for her, and dinner is on the table half an hour later. I have done handicapped care in the past, but it's really exhausting (and too many people I liked kept dying. Kind of depressing, that) so now I just focus on my writing and do the occasional nice thing for people I know.

4) Fantasy aside, you can only be in charge of yourself. You can only be responsible for your own behavior and for your own life. You make your own choices. A sub is not some mindless automoton - they choose to surrender some aspect of their decision-making process. The sub is not the only person who keeps track of the safeword, either. A lot of folks forget that tops have issues too. Some times a top has to throw in the towel before the sub is ready to end things. A scene can hit emotional landmines before anybody realises that they've crossed a line. Also, the top may simply decide that the bottom has taken damage and end the scene, even though the bottom thinks they're fine. It's not nessesary to actually speak the safeword, but you are essentially exercising the safeword option at that time, ending the scene prematurely due to safety reasons.

Just some more data for you to chew on.

~S



strongnsubmissiv -> RE: What's in it for you? (9/24/2004 10:12:45 AM)

Good questions... great thread...

As i was reading Brian's first post i had to laugh because being on the other side of the D/s fence, i've asked myself the same question.

"What the heck to the Dominants get out of this?" lol


Now of course there is the obvious... service and attention.. but if you go to say a play party, all the activities seem very one sided. All the attention seems to be on the subs and the Tops are initiating the whole thing, not to mention getting a sore arm from swining implements all night. From a submissive point of view, it looks like we are the only ones that actually get to let go, feel free, and enjoy the attention that is coming from our Dominants.

I guess it all comes down to the simple fact that we are different in a complimentary way, and thank God. Vive la difference!

sns

(i still think we subbies are getting the better part of the deal) :P



apaganguy -> RE: What's in it for you? (9/27/2004 11:02:06 PM)

First of all, I'd like to apologize for the "post and run". Things got crazy here right after posting, and I haven't (and still don't really) had time to post, so this is sort of a quick post.

First off, "Thank You" to all of you who have responded. I truly appreciate the insight and experience you have offered.

I'm intimately familiar with the concept of Catharsis, and have certainly seen it's applications here in a variety of ways. Thanks for the validation on that one!

As far as combinations go, how would it work in a D/s relationship where the Dom is the masochist?

quote:

> So you still want to be a Master/Dom???


You betcha! [:)]

quote:

> wanted to say hey, and slowly wrap my mind around a pagan in a suit


Yeah, I thought that'd be fun. I'm a big fan of irony, paradox and juxtaposition.

I'll have to invite you over when I do my "Baptist Tent Revival-style Full Moon Ritual":
... Can I get a BLESSED BE !!!!! [:D]

I find great value in putting seemingly incongruous things together to force people to think about things whether they want to or not. Sounds like I got another point in the photo, huh? [;)]

quote:

> I'm pretty sure I can only be called a "dirty cocksucker" a few times before I knock somebody's teeth out.


ROTFL!

quote:

> Just some more data for you to chew on.


Chomp, chomp, chomp. MMMmmmmmm, Data! More, please!

Or should I say "MORE DATA, you dirty cocksucker!" (I'm just curious to see how many "a few" is....) [;)]

quote:

> "What the heck to the Dominants get out of this?"


Well, for me that's the interesting question. My role in life is to teach and help people discover who they truly are, and then teach them how to completely express who and what they are. This ultimately puts me in the role of Service to others (humanity, in particular), which might seem like a sub thing. However, I have not found that I really have any "scene sub" desires.

Tell me what to do, and I'll probably take your orders and shove 'em up your ass and cork it. Ask me for help, and I'll bend over backwards to do what I can to help you.

While I fell naturally drawn to the Dom/Top role, it is ultimately so that I can help guide people to discover who they really are. Basically, it is sort of a "hand me your reigns and I'll guide you to where you need to be". Sure, it's fun for me along the way, but it is ultimately done in Service. Weird, huh?

Did I mention I love irony, paradox and juxtaposition? [:)]

quote:

> (i still think we subbies are getting the better part of the deal) :P


Yeah, so do I, so you'd better appreciate it and maybe try working a bit harder. It's only fair, you know! [:D]

quote:

> Submission isn’t about weakness. There is a profound strength and courage required to accept and embrace the need to submit.


More of that irony crap. God, I'm getting sick of that stuff!

But seriously, that is one of the things that pulled me into this community. In no other community that I am aware of, is "KNOW THYSELF" so rigorously and tirelessly practiced. Which ties right into my ultimate goal, which is why I'm here.

Can I get a BLESSED BE !!!!

- Brian



Suleiman -> RE: What's in it for you? (9/27/2004 11:15:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: apaganguy


As far as combinations go, how would it work in a D/s relationship where the Dom is the masochist?


Can I get a BLESSED BE !!!!

- Brian


Been there, done that. My first mistress was a serious pain slut, used to love topping from the bottom. "Go get that cane over there... no, the other one... that's it... now, snap it back just like I showed you... good boy! Now, steady rhythm... that's it... no, move down to the inner thigh... perfect! That's exactly the rhythm. Harder! HARDER! YES! YES! GOOD BOY!!!"


~S



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