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Topping from the bottom ? - 8/4/2010 10:40:29 PM   
MilkyUdders


Posts: 1
Status: offline 		What does it mean ?  How is it possible ?
Can anyone share examples of this topping from the bottom?
apprecaited in advance.

Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Topping from the bottom ? - 8/5/2010 12:18:14 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MilkyUdders

What does it mean ?  How is it possible ?
Can anyone share examples of this topping from the bottom?
apprecaited in advance.



One night while watching the Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show mister dominant sees this big beautiful animal trotting around the ring pristine and well behaved and has an interesting idea. He's enamored and convinces himself that he must get "one of those" and sets forth to get the burly beast.

Nevermind the fact that he knows little about the breed. Forget about the challenges and upkeep. What matters most is having the thing he sought and he secures one in time. Unlike most prepared owners he convinces himself he has the right tools and doesn't need to invest in any training or gimmicks as he calls them. He can handle the beast and expects the same results he saw on the screen.

I'm sure you've seen this guy racing down the street while the dog gallops forward leading him. He barks a command and nothing happens. The owner has become the owned and it's a real clusterfuck (that's oddly amusing) to the onlooker. Eventually he tires of the animal and has a bevy of excuses to substantiate his dismay and belief that it is ill tempered, defective, etc. He conjures every notion in the book save the obvious one. His lack of preparation never comes to mind and he's destined to repeat the situation until he recognizes the error.

That is topping from the bottom. A convenient excuse that explains away a poor choice by a party that wasn't prepared for the one he took on. The submissive isn't galloping forward leading him. He never had control. When we begin to recognize the fallacy in this line of thought and see it for what it is we'll stop using silly ideas like this.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to MilkyUdders)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Topping from the bottom ? - 8/5/2010 1:13:51 AM   
ranja


Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/1/2007
Status: offline 		When the submissive gives the dominant information this can be taken by insecure dominants as topping from the bottom as in: "don't you tell me what to do you little woman" or: " are you saying I do it wrong?"...
while secure men usually accept input and work with it... so they become even greater than they already are.
...
it does depend somewhat on the manner in which the sub gets this valuable knowledge across

(in reply to MilkyUdders)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Topping from the bottom ? - 8/5/2010 1:59:27 AM   
pains


Posts: 17
Joined: 5/23/2008
Status: offline 		I see topping from the bottom as a form of manipulation ie. getting the Dom to do what the sub wants, provoking them to get the desired response. n some dynamics i guess it may be acceptable and seen as playful, very much depends on what the Dominant will and won't tolerate.

p


(in reply to ranja)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Topping from the bottom ? - 8/5/2010 2:17:45 AM   
BentUnit


Posts: 897
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: MilkyUdders

What does it mean ?  How is it possible ?
Can anyone share examples of this topping from the bottom?
apprecaited in advance.



One night while watching the Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show mister dominant sees this big beautiful animal trotting around the ring pristine and well behaved and has an interesting idea. He's enamored and convinces himself that he must get "one of those" and sets forth to get the burly beast.

Nevermind the fact that he knows little about the breed. Forget about the challenges and upkeep. What matters most is having the thing he sought and he secures one in time. Unlike most prepared owners he convinces himself he has the right tools and doesn't need to invest in any training or gimmicks as he calls them. He can handle the beast and expects the same results he saw on the screen.

I'm sure you've seen this guy racing down the street while the dog gallops forward leading him. He barks a command and nothing happens. The owner has become the owned and it's a real clusterfuck (that's oddly amusing) to the onlooker. Eventually he tires of the animal and has a bevy of excuses to substantiate his dismay and belief that it is ill tempered, defective, etc. He conjures every notion in the book save the obvious one. His lack of preparation never comes to mind and he's destined to repeat the situation until he recognizes the error.

That is topping from the bottom. A convenient excuse that explains away a poor choice by a party that wasn't prepared for the one he took on. The submissive isn't galloping forward leading him. He never had control. When we begin to recognize the fallacy in this line of thought and see it for what it is we'll stop using silly ideas like this.

~porcelaine



Quoted for Truth!

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Topping from the bottom ? - 8/5/2010 4:05:54 AM   
reynardfox


Posts: 417
Joined: 9/8/2009
Status: offline 		Topping from the bottom happens when a weak Dom is controlled by a subbie who is cleverer and stronger than they are. This is most common when both parties have got their own label wrong. There is a sad false premise that subs are weaker, which is almost funny, if you have the courage to put yourself in the hands of another, you are so far from being weak!

(in reply to MilkyUdders)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Topping from the bottom ? - 8/5/2010 7:45:26 AM   
peppermint


Posts: 5170
Joined: 10/18/2005
From: Montana
Status: offline 		All the answers you have already gotten are very good ones, however, they have all neglected to add one last way of topping from the bottom.

Let's say you have a Dominant who enjoys certain activities for one reason or another. The Dominant may enjoy being fire cupped by a skilled submissive. The Dominant may make floggers and wishes to know what the newest creation feels like. In both cases the Dominant may order the submissive to "do" these things to the Dominant, to use this fire cups on the back or wield the flogger. This puts the Dominant in the bottom position. However, the Dominant has not given up any control to the submissive as the Dominant is still in charge and telling the submissive what to do. So the Dominant is Topping from the bottom.

Topping from the bottom can be, but is not always an activity that is frowned upon. It's just one aspect of a Dominant/submissive relationship. It's the intent and reason behind the activity that can make Topping from the bottom a good or bad deal.

(in reply to MilkyUdders)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Topping from the bottom ? - 8/5/2010 7:49:32 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MilkyUdders

What does it mean ?  How is it possible ?
Can anyone share examples of this topping from the bottom?
apprecaited in advance.




Many people are stating this in the negative....

Definition without value judgments:

Topping from the bottom - when a top is instructed by the bottom how to give sensation play.

The above definition does not include "manipulation" or "weak dominants" or any other sort of value judgment. It is simply stating what is occurring

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to MilkyUdders)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Topping from the bottom ? - 8/5/2010 7:52:03 AM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: MilkyUdders

What does it mean ?  How is it possible ?
Can anyone share examples of this topping from the bottom?
apprecaited in advance.



One night while watching the Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show mister dominant sees this big beautiful animal trotting around the ring pristine and well behaved and has an interesting idea. He's enamored and convinces himself that he must get "one of those" and sets forth to get the burly beast.

Nevermind the fact that he knows little about the breed. Forget about the challenges and upkeep. What matters most is having the thing he sought and he secures one in time. Unlike most prepared owners he convinces himself he has the right tools and doesn't need to invest in any training or gimmicks as he calls them. He can handle the beast and expects the same results he saw on the screen.

I'm sure you've seen this guy racing down the street while the dog gallops forward leading him. He barks a command and nothing happens. The owner has become the owned and it's a real clusterfuck (that's oddly amusing) to the onlooker. Eventually he tires of the animal and has a bevy of excuses to substantiate his dismay and belief that it is ill tempered, defective, etc. He conjures every notion in the book save the obvious one. His lack of preparation never comes to mind and he's destined to repeat the situation until he recognizes the error.

That is topping from the bottom. A convenient excuse that explains away a poor choice by a party that wasn't prepared for the one he took on. The submissive isn't galloping forward leading him. He never had control. When we begin to recognize the fallacy in this line of thought and see it for what it is we'll stop using silly ideas like this.

~porcelaine



You gotta love a woman who embraces the metaphor and uses the word clusterfuck all in one post.

My kind of girl!

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Topping from the bottom ? - 8/5/2010 7:54:16 AM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

That is topping from the bottom. A convenient excuse that explains away a poor choice by a party that wasn't prepared for the one he took on. The submissive isn't galloping forward leading him. He never had control. When we begin to recognize the fallacy in this line of thought and see it for what it is we'll stop using silly ideas like this.

~porcelaine



This was the best description I've ever seen on this topic.  If the leader is, in fact, the head of the relationship and actually leading it, there is no topping from the bottom.  Everything that occurs in that relationship is allowed.  It's either allowed because the leader says so, or it's allowed because the leader doesn't have the tools to actually lead.


_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Topping from the bottom ? - 8/5/2010 8:01:00 AM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		I think I got my definition from "Screw the Roses, Send Me the Thorns."  Topping from the bottom is thwacking someone to their direct orders.  Otherwise, it's an accusation made whenever the top feels threatened by the submissive making a request or having an opinion.  Another possibility is a massive communications fail, or just having poor timing.  I feel it comes across as them being insecure in their dominance most of the time.  There are definitely times when a submissive is being too pushy (or when a dominant is too pushy), and that's just plain rude.  I don't agree that it's manipulative to share needs and desires, and I've had some fantastic scenes come out of taking a bottom or submissive's suggestion and running with it and making it my own, or when I asked to explore something specific.  My former Master always encouraged me to ask for anything I needed or wanted.  Sometimes the answer was no, or not now, but he was never upset or annoyed with me for expressing them.  It helped me feel much more transparent to him, and safe being open and vulnerable with my desires.

(in reply to MilkyUdders)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Topping from the bottom ? - 8/5/2010 8:04:53 AM   
SpiritedRadiance


Posts: 1341
Joined: 3/3/2010
Status: offline 		Ive always had it used in a negative way. So my response in kind is how i see it.

Where I had a limitation and people have told me i was topping from the bottom to have such a limitation. Or if I point out its rather unsafe to use a tie this tight for this long or something else that mentions common sense and "threatens" my "doms" "authority"  of  me.

The truth is Topping from the bottom really doesnt exist at least in my eyes.

Either my partner is in control or he isnt If he is, I have no desire to take control, and no matter what the act no matter wither or not to outsiders theres the appearance of control hes in control. Telling me to whip him or whatever is him in control and me obeying. (I dont see acts as topping or bottoming) If he isnt in control then im not submitting to him at all there for i cant be disobeying or defying his wishes. Im His or Im not, If I am his Hes in control 100%

Many Doms use it as a form of manipulation to get what they want or to have a less "commonsensical submissive"  also in conjunction are phrases like if you were a real sub.... if you were a true sub ......if you really wanted to please me...

youd do this thing your saying no to or have as a hard limit.

(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Topping from the bottom ? - 8/5/2010 8:31:33 AM   
LanceHughes


Posts: 4737
Joined: 2/12/2004
Status: offline 		R/L example:  I met Bottom on internet. Yeah, yeah, coffee shop thing and there was a small click.  Not a full one, but something was good - especially in play only kinda way.  Arranged to have 1st scene which went well since sub went with my scene (flogging.)  2nd scene - I had planned and discussed ropes & light bondage.  Bottom shows up with ton-of tit-toys.  I am into tit play, but was expecting to do just  ropes - that's what we had negotiated - just ropes - with more to follow.  Of course, the two are not mutually exclusive... point is what we had discussed.  Also. in discussion, I had been led to believe that tit play was coming.

So, I changed around what was in my head and we did tit-play (which it turns out is his #1 choice by far - 95% tit-play, 5% everything else.  And, I find out, by asking around, each tit-play session for him is to the exclusion of everything else....... So, once we had titplay going, he basically "refused" ropes.  "Sir, please put XYZ toy on me.  No, no ropes, just XYZ.)

For me, topping from bottom includes deceit in negotiation.  Of course, there was no session 3 - neither asked.  What little fire there was had been extinguished and he knew better than to call.

_____________________________

"Train 'em the right way - my way." Lance Hughes
"Advice is what we ask for when we already know the answer, but wish we didn't." Erica Jong

10 fluffy points
50 nz points

Member: VAA's posse

(in reply to SpiritedRadiance)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Topping from the bottom ? - 8/5/2010 8:42:12 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

I think I got my definition from "Screw the Roses, Send Me the Thorns."  Topping from the bottom is thwacking someone to their direct orders.


Yes...

Bottom = someone receiving sensations

Top = The person that is giving sensations

Topping from the bottom = the bottom directing the sensations given by the top

Bottoming and topping have nothing to do with dominance and submission.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Topping from the bottom ? - 8/5/2010 9:17:04 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline 		99% of the time when the term is used it is a negative context that always places the onus on the submissive for behaving inappropriately. I have never agreed that any leader is unknowingly controlled by its subordinate unless that is part of their dynamic. Instances where the latter attempt to lead in a D/s context often involve situations as previously outlined, unfamiliarity on both sides, an omission of clear cut directives and parameters, or agreed upon interactions that provide instruction as desired by the dominant.

~porcelaine 

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Topping from the bottom ? - 8/5/2010 9:31:44 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
I'm sure you've seen this guy racing down the street while the dog gallops forward leading him. He barks a command and nothing happens. The owner has become the owned and it's a real clusterfuck (that's oddly amusing) to the onlooker. Eventually he tires of the animal and has a bevy of excuses to substantiate his dismay and belief that it is ill tempered, defective, etc. He conjures every notion in the book save the obvious one. His lack of preparation never comes to mind and he's destined to repeat the situation until he recognizes the error. That is topping from the bottom

*laughs* Great analogy porcelaine. And, of course, the reason I love it is that it points out clearly why I much prefer the phrase "bottoming from the top" than "topping from the bottom". Odd that your story, as written, was all about the man yet the descriptor, "topping from the bottom", blames it on the dog.

For my own self, I see the phrase "topping from the bottom" as an abdication of both authority and responsibility and any dominant who seriously used that phrase to me would pretty much not be considered dominant by me thereafter.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Topping from the bottom ? - 8/5/2010 10:15:37 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

*laughs* Great analogy porcelaine. And, of course, the reason I love it is that it points out clearly why I much prefer the phrase "bottoming from the top" than "topping from the bottom". Odd that your story, as written, was all about the man yet the descriptor, "topping from the bottom", blames it on the dog.

For my own self, I see the phrase "topping from the bottom" as an abdication of both authority and responsibility and any dominant who seriously used that phrase to me would pretty much not be considered dominant by me thereafter.


In the end leaders must accept responsibility for the people they bring on board. He chose the dog and failed to do his homework before taking the plunge. Blaming the dog for its behavior when its handler is ill suited for management is a little backwards in my opinion.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Topping from the bottom ? - 8/5/2010 10:51:04 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline 		Actually, "topping from the bottom" has a long and comfortable history among those who do casual BDSM play, and is not, in any way, a criticism or meant to disparage those who do it. Topping from the bottom came out of the frame of mind where a bottom would 'train' a top who wasn't familiar with hir about how to practice certain activities. When I first started doing temporary piercings, I worked with a bottom who had a lot of experience needle-bottoming, and -expected- that xhe would 'top' me through our first few encounters, and help me learn the skills to properly pierce hir. It worked out great.

The problem with the whole "topping from the bottom" phrase as it's used on a lot of these bulletin-board type sites is that it is -mis-applied to authority-exchange dynamics (which is -not- where it was coined) to apply to situations where a submissive individual does not yield as much or as quickly as a particular dominant individual expects -- rather than looking at this as either a mis-communication about expectations or a poor fit in terms of dynamic, the term "topping from the bottom" is trotted out.

I feel the same way about this phrase that I do about infidelity -- if a dominant individual and submissive individual are comfortable together, there will be no question between them about how the yielding process is going and who holds the authority, regardless of what it looks like to anyone else, just like a couple who are happy and healthy together will have a relationship that is honest and neither party will break trust with the other, regardless of what it looks like to an outsider.

If the relationship has gone sour, then the issue isn't in the yielding or in the fidelity -- it is core deep in the relationship not fulfilling everyone involved.

Calla


_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Topping from the bottom ? - 8/5/2010 10:52:34 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
In the end leaders must accept responsibility for the people they bring on board. He chose the dog and failed to do his homework before taking the plunge. Blaming the dog for its behavior when its handler is ill suited for management is a little backwards in my opinion.
A succinct way to put why I don't believe "topping from the bottom" exists. What I do think is that bottoming from the top exists and happens all the time.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Topping from the bottom ? - 8/5/2010 10:55:31 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		It is when I manipulate her do do what I want...but make her believe she is doing what she wants...silly girl...Something like that.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to MilkyUdders)
Profile   Post #: 20
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