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Naturalization - 8/8/2010 1:53:56 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Should it come with a price tag or should US citizenship be given away?

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RE: Naturalization - 8/8/2010 1:54:21 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Was it given to you?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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RE: Naturalization - 8/8/2010 1:59:03 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Actually, my people had to fight for it.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Naturalization - 8/8/2010 2:07:08 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Hmmmm... every war since the war of 1812 had some of my ancestors that fought in them, up until the latest conflict. I don't feel their actions give me some kind of free ride on the citizenship bandwagon. I did nothing to earn my citizenship here, I was simply born in the stream of time, an accident of birth if you will... nothing more.

But that is just me, etc...

BTW, the Roman Empire granted people citizenship based upon military service, this, according to some historians helped bring about their demise. They expanded too far with their troops, and at the end of the Roman Empire only one in four was a Roman. They lacked loyalty to Rome, because they just wanted the citizenship to profit from it, never even seeing the Roman homeland.

If you are here, living here, learning our history, taking part in our community... you are becoming one of us. Fighting on foreign soil for a foreign government for citizenship makes you a mercenary, not an american

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Naturalization - 8/8/2010 2:08:31 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I think there should be a price to pay….as below

You have been a permanent resident for at least 5 years and meet all other eligibility requirements. See the “General Path to Naturalization” link under “Citizenship by Naturalization” to the left.

You have been a permanent resident for 3 years or more and meet all eligibility requirements to file as a spouse of a U.S. citizen. See the “Spouses of U.S. Citizens” link under “Citizenship by Naturalization” to the left.

You have qualifying service in the U.S. armed forces and meet all other eligibility requirements. See the “Information for Members of the Military and Their Families” link to the right.

Your child may qualify for naturalization if you are a U.S. citizen, the child was born outside the U.S., the child is currently residing outside the U.S., and all other eligibility requirements are met.

The above is a price but I think there should be more.

I would like to see, and I know this will make many people mad, a requirement to learn English and pass a language test.

Not because I think English is best language but because nothing will isolate you and make your transition to a citizen harder than not being able to communicate with the majority.

I also think a civics class should be taken and passed within a reasonable period of time.

Yes yes those will say" will natural born children do not have to take a test" That is not true for most I was required to learn English and take a civics class in school...and I also think it should be a requirement before being allowed to vote...I went too far for some I'm sure but I don't think my ideas radical anyway.

Butch

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RE: Naturalization - 8/8/2010 2:09:38 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		I take that as a free ride for you, julia. As much as i expected.

I grew up with the philosophy... you will only cherish that which you work hard for.

My father, grandfather and uncles worked hard in the service. They never wanted, or expected a free ride for anything. Nor do i. Nor do i believe it should be given.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Naturalization - 8/8/2010 2:11:32 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		It is not easy or cheap.But it is doable.

As it should be.

I don`t think a pissing contest about who can love America more,US born or naturalized is helpful.

I love this country and what it stands for as much as anybody.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 8/8/2010 2:15:53 PM >

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RE: Naturalization - 8/8/2010 2:13:55 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Thank you butch for that thoughtful post. I couldnt agree more. I dont believe they should have to toil for years before being accepted, but i do believe they should have to work for what they want.

English requirement, i agree whole heartedly. Its often frightening to many illegals to realize they cannot communicate effectively in times of trouble. The language barrier is more than just a communication barrier. It can be a legal barrier as well.

Civics class... ugh... i remember those. But, how can someone swear loyalty to a country they dont understand? Another good point.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Naturalization - 8/8/2010 2:15:08 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

I would like to see, and I know this will make many people mad, a requirement to learn English and pass a language test.

Not because I think English is best language but because nothing will isolate you and make your transition to a citizen harder than not being able to communicate with the majority.

I also think a civics class should be taken and passed within a reasonable period of time.


My grandparents learned very little english and yet they were good, productive citizens. Learning a new language becomes difficult as you grow older. Losing an accent after age 15 is not likely I have read.

ETA well look, they were farm peasants with very little formal education of any kind.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 8/8/2010 2:16:19 PM >

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RE: Naturalization - 8/8/2010 2:15:52 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I take that as a free ride for you, julia. As much as i expected.

I grew up with the philosophy... you will only cherish that which you work hard for.

My father, grandfather and uncles worked hard in the service. They never wanted, or expected a free ride for anything. Nor do i. Nor do i believe it should be given.


My uncle served two tours in Vietnam on my father's side. One uncle went to Korea and another went to WWII on my mother's side. My father wanted to enlist in the service, but he was born with a heart defect.

My exhusband was airforce. My oldest brother was Navy, my next older brother, air force. I enlisted in the air force and got a medical exception...

I am honest enough to admit that the sacrifices of others have nothing to do with my own. I do not tread on my family's service to justify my right to citizenship... do your own time for your country and quit treading on their hard work

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Naturalization - 8/8/2010 2:20:27 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Why arent you saying that about the illegals then?

julia, if you dont have anything constructive to add to the discussion, then dont add. its really that simple. take your snark elsewhere.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Naturalization - 8/8/2010 2:21:49 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Why arent you saying that about the illegals then?

julia, if you dont have anything constructive to add to the discussion, then dont add. its really that simple. take your snark elsewhere.


Just because I am not contributing in the way you have mapped out in your head does not mean I am not contributing...


WTF do illegals have to do with naturalization and the "right" to it?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Naturalization - 8/8/2010 2:23:45 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Naturalization typically has to do with people from another country wanting to come to the US, no? Or did i miss the concept all together.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Naturalization - 8/8/2010 2:27:35 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		People get naturalized through a legitimate citizenship process. Your OP seemed to hint that these people who are getting naturalized should be in the military earning that right. There are people that are getting in front of the line because they are fighting for this country as a path to citizenship. I do not agree with doing that, because I think it weakens our military. I would rather people come here and build our country than be involved in occupying someone else's as a path to citizenship.


Edited to add... legitimate naturalization has nothing to do with illegally being here

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 8/8/2010 2:28:11 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to tazzygirl)
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RE: Naturalization - 8/8/2010 2:29:42 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		I asked if it should be free or given with a price tag. That in no way indicates service in the military.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Naturalization - 8/8/2010 2:31:00 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Vincent I'm sure your Grandparents experience is typical of many. I don’t know but I’ll bet they had friends, a sponsor like a church, or an organization that helped them become those good citizens. I also believe if they had been required to learn basic communication skills over their years before naturalization and taken a test they would and could of done it…Remember these tests can be oral if required.

I would like to give you an example of where it goes wrong. I recently took a cruise out of Miami. On the way to the dock I got lost and spent quite some time before I found anyone that could speak English to give me directions. These were all nice people that tried to help… we just could not communicate. We were isolated from each other. Humane nature, sad but so, has a way that people that can’t talk to each other often become separated and hostile to each other.

Here in St Louis we have a large Bosnian population if immigrants… There are now parts of St Louis where people can’t understand each other and their has become a racial divide that I believe is not healthy. If we could just talk we could find common ground and they would join the melting pot.

I’m sure it will work out in the end…I mean most immigrants learn English in time I just think requirements would speed things along smoother.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: Naturalization - 8/8/2010 2:31:54 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Should it come with a price tag or should US citizenship be given away?


People may bitch about their government (seems to be a favoried passtime no matter where you go in the world) but most love their country so to actually leave your country.. not only leave, but renounce your country is already a big price tag to pay. I believe the oath of allegiance that one has to take to become a citizen of the US is fair, so no, I don't think that US citizenship should be given away.. nor French citizenship, nor German nor any other country. We are very much more alike in this world than unalike and most of us just want to feed our family, care for them and have a warm place to pass the winter months. Where we are born is not where we *must* live, but if you aren't willing to play the cards that fate dealt you then, yes, that's going to cost you something.


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Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: Naturalization - 8/8/2010 10:54:04 PM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

They lacked loyalty to Rome, because they just wanted the citizenship to profit from it, never even seeing the Roman homeland.


What an excellent argument against anchor babies. Thank you.

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RE: Naturalization - 8/8/2010 11:03:11 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

They lacked loyalty to Rome, because they just wanted the citizenship to profit from it, never even seeing the Roman homeland.


What an excellent argument against anchor babies. Thank you.


An anchor baby grows up here, its parents live here, they have a stake in the future of this country...

Soldiers on the Barbarian frontier had no such loyalties to Rome, having never seen it. How you can connect anchor babies and mercenary soldiers... you are really stretching a connection to the breaking point

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Naturalization - 8/8/2010 11:06:34 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		But, julia, the argument can be made that those who come here and join the military for reasons of citizenship do have a stake in our society. Many have families. They develop ties. Lord knows the indoctrination of the different branches is all about country.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 20
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