RE: Wannabes, phonies, HNGs, etc.

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RE: Wannabes, phonies, HNGs, etc. - 4/21/2006 5:55:52 PM

fastlane

Posts: 2159
Joined: 5/26/2005
Status: offline

I have frequently asked myself, "what the hell am I doing?"
Taken my toy bag out and said "I'm throwin this shiat away."
Then after a spell of trying to play it straight the lifestyle pulls me back in.
I think I'm a "Don't wanna be, but I am!"

Life is complicated, Kevin

_____________________________

Just because it hurts, doesn't necessarily make it a bad thing.

(in reply to Clothespingirl)

Post #: 21

RE: Wannabes, phonies, HNGs, etc. - 4/21/2006 5:58:36 PM

CrappyDom

Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline

As much as I sometimes hate the scene (even though I love it for some things too) it is good to see people and how they interact with others in real life. Of course then you have to be one who plays casually with others so they can see how you handle relationships as well.

Catch 22 all around.

Someone leaving you on a date like that is just fucked up, especially long distance cause how much work was involved anyway? Guy was a turd and you deserve someone much better. They are out there.

(in reply to ladychatterley)

Post #: 22

RE: Wannabes, phonies, HNGs, etc. - 4/21/2006 6:06:05 PM

ladychatterley

Posts: 132
Joined: 3/10/2006
Status: offline

It wasn't really long-distance--about 40 miles.

(in reply to CrappyDom)

Post #: 23

RE: Wannabes, phonies, HNGs, etc. - 4/21/2006 6:11:18 PM

CrappyDom

Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline

Too bad he couldn't get a high heel enema, what a complete jerk.

(in reply to ladychatterley)

Post #: 24

RE: Wannabes, phonies, HNGs, etc. - 4/21/2006 6:18:56 PM

ladychatterley

Posts: 132
Joined: 3/10/2006
Status: offline

Well, I changed the rules that day--and I pretty much knew what they were, but I couldn't handle them. I knew it wasn't supposed to be serious, but I just wanted him to drive up and spend the night or me to drive down and curl up in his arms. And he wasn't from the city; there was a huge split in the response. I'd left the city the summer before and couldn't go an hour without crying.

I remember all the liberal columnists I'd liked up until that point just totally failed (except Krugman). Molly Ivins was on break for the entire month, and they reran her old columns! She should have come back, written something, or suspended her columns--I was so desparate for a little affirmation from her that the pain I felt was real--the only time her bleeding heart didn't bleed. I just about went ballastic at Chomsky and Zinn and all them, including family who didn't understand. People without a personal connection responded intellectually or with anger; people with a personal connection responded with grief, and a grief I, for one, didn't know how to channel, didn't have an models, didn't know what it meant. In a very real way, it was much worse for me than any death I've experienced. I wasn't even aware that I'd run back to vanilla as a result until recently.

But thank you--I appreciate it because it affirms that I wasn't crazy to go so crazy at that crazy moment.

(in reply to CrappyDom)

Post #: 25

RE: Wannabes, phonies, HNGs, etc. - 4/21/2006 6:25:17 PM

sweetecho

Posts: 15
Joined: 9/22/2005
Status: offline

Thank You/you all for Your kindness.

Thank you, bandit25.

ladychatterley, i could feel Your words --- and i am sorry that ever happened to You. If i could erase the experience from Your delicate heart, i would do that right now. i do not believe that all pain makes us better. That is why we protect children --- there are experience we should never have.

Don't You think it is an unreasonable expectation that a woman not be clingy and needy? Sometimes we need to cling, and i am most definitely needy. How can i deny my need for a Master? i do not know how i have managed to live so long without One at the center of my life. We place such value on independence in this country, to the point that women must be Men, too? It is unrealistic for a Master to want a submissive to be other than she is by nature. He wants another Man, not a woman.

It seems as though somewhere in my past, i knew Men who were endeared by the sight of a woman crying. There used to be Men who wanted to be needed and wanted to be relied upon, who understood their value by seeing a woman's dependency. We live in difficult times. i so often feel like a failure as a woman because i do not have a Master.

And, Clothespingirl, thank you, too, for your support. i will take a look at the thread you mentioned. i am going to look into the local munches, which is stretch for me, but i can see that i must do so.

i already feel better having come here to share my story.

Warm regards to You/you all.

(in reply to Clothespingirl)

Post #: 26

RE: Wannabes, phonies, HNGs, etc. - 4/21/2006 6:30:50 PM

bignipples2share

Posts: 611
Joined: 4/19/2004
Status: offline

God I SF.....even there, there are alot of very bad missteps, but there is also so many availabilites to learn quickly, who and what your are, how to handle it, how to culture it, how to become the person that you are inside. It's such a liberal, livable, realable place to excellerate yourself,

_______________
ahhhhh I see sounds

(in reply to CrappyDom)

Post #: 27

RE: Wannabes, phonies, HNGs, etc. - 4/21/2006 6:30:55 PM

CrappyDom

Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline

I am not sure I would call any response to 9/11 insane. I mean someone crashing planes into the city you live in, colapsing landmarkes full of people SHOULD induce trama and if it didn't, that would be the only response I might call insane.

HAVE you dealt with that grief or at least come to terms with carrying it?

But I can't imagine being a Dominant and not stepping up and making my home a welcome place for ANYONE and EVERYONE who needed a place, especially someone with whom I had been intimate. Hell, I would even welcome those few exs I don't like! At a time like that, you do what needs to be done to take care of people.

(in reply to ladychatterley)

Post #: 28

RE: Wannabes, phonies, HNGs, etc. - 4/21/2006 6:35:33 PM

ladychatterley

Posts: 132
Joined: 3/10/2006
Status: offline

I think it is a really, really fine line and, in my experience, being too needy is not particularly attractive. I've never heard a man say he likes to watch a woman cry for any reasons other than the physical release. I've heard men say they feel guilty or manipulated or helpless.

But I'm probably more "vanilla/fudge swirl" than 24/7, so ymmv. I have always been "strong." But it is, in many ways, a defense mechanism, a barrier I use to protect myself from getting hurt because I've had to protect myself from a very early age, but it keeps me from other things as well. It may be, for me at least, I attract men who like my strength. I don't really know how to 'do vulnerability,' so I probably don't do it very well. I've only intellectually accepted that it is OK to be vulnerable--I don't do it yet intuitively or gracefully (even with my therapist). In fact, it is incredibly helpful for me to come be vulnerable here, with all the anonymity of the net, and see that it is OK. It is good practice.

"In the depths of her interior were fears she was inferior and something even eerier, but no one dared to queery her superior exterior."

(in reply to sweetecho)

Post #: 29

RE: Wannabes, phonies, HNGs, etc. - 4/21/2006 6:45:51 PM

bignipples2share

Posts: 611
Joined: 4/19/2004
Status: offline

I personally will never get involved with ANYone who is over 1 1/2 hours away...I figure 3 hours per day on a daily basis almost too long distance to do. If you can't find someone locally, then find someone vanilla who is local who you can train to your lifestyle. Trust me, it's less of a heartache than trying to have a relationship work online or one that requires frequent travel and have the excuses come in. I've never had a long distance relationship and I have NO plans to ever start one after seeing all the ones that don't work out. It's a very very rare occasion that someone meets online, who is any distance apart and it works out in a long term relationship. I'm talking long term of being 5 years or more. Now if you like those odds, fine, keep getting involved with long term. I myself perfer the long term relationship I've had in the past, the shortest one being 7 years, and figure that was a short relationship to live with a partner.

(in reply to Clothespingirl)

Post #: 30

RE: Wannabes, phonies, HNGs, etc. - 4/21/2006 6:48:31 PM

CrappyDom

Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline

Lady,

Submission and the tango have a great deal in common. It starts with two people stepping on each others toes, making missteps, and even on occasion someone being dropped. But with experience and trust, the movements become more fluid, the dancers slowly learning to move as one. It is at its most sexy when they learn each other inside and out and move in unison with grace and fluidity that takes people's breath away.

I have a feeling you will find a man who will take your vanilla and fudge swirl and make a very very delicious dessert of it!

(in reply to ladychatterley)

Post #: 31

RE: Wannabes, phonies, HNGs, etc. - 4/21/2006 9:20:58 PM

losttreasure

Posts: 875
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline

Sweetecho... I understand intimately the pain that you are feeling, and I am sorry. Though I've never posted here before, I have lurked for some time on these threads and the words of sympathy and advice that you have been receiving from these good people are both genuine and sound. The only thing I might offer in addition is to direct you to http://www.submissivewomenspeak.net . The articles there have helped to assuage much of my own grief by reinforcing in me much of the common sense that wants to flee in the "presence" of a dominant personality; a bit of a "kick in the submissive pants", as it were. ;)

Best wishes to you, LostTreasure

(in reply to sweetecho)

Post #: 32

RE: Wannabes, phonies, HNGs, etc. - 4/22/2006 4:57:22 AM

sweetecho

Posts: 15
Joined: 9/22/2005
Status: offline

Dear losttreasure,

Thank you very much for Your support and advice. It has been very helpful being here. i am not really one to share my pain with other people, perhaps another submissive trait. i respect the fact that there is a lot of hurt in the world that far exceeds that of my little life.

Still, i often feel alone in my pain and do not consider that other submissives go through the same thing. i think that maybe i am not really "getting" it. Maybe i am not a real submissive or i would not be getting hurt! A real submissive would know what to do and how to handle the insanely difficult situations that arise with getting to know a Master . . .

There are some almost impassable situations that arise with Masters. For example, They all expect a submissive to jump into intimacy immediately. They all want nude photos within hours of Their approach. They all want to IM right away. Everything is Now Now Now. They are all in a very great hurry in the beginning, and this is a little hard for me because i tend to give in to it and become intimate (and mind you, the Master and i have not met yet -- we are still only online) by sharing my needs with Them. Within days, i am awash in love; and also within days, He may have disappeared. He is on to the next girl, or His wife is back, or i have no idea what happened except that my heart is broken.

Obviously, Masters, as Men, are not made with the same emotional capacity as woman and cannot come anywhere near the incredible depth of feeling that is found in a true submissive. What a terrible mismatch this really is. i believe They have no idea what They are asking of a submissive so soon. They are taking her life because she is giving everything, as she is not one to hold back and keep her love for herself.

i just said No to a Master last night about giving Him more photos and about IMing and about all the excess that He really does not need right now from me. i asked that He get to know me first, and i am also willing to meet in person rather than IM or send photos. i have a feeling i am going to be saying No a lot more often. i no longer feel i have to prove i am a submissive to any One. i have paid my dues. Should He want to know my submission, He will have to stick around.

i have also been thinking about how nutty i must have looked to these Masters to whom i had given over my life. i imagine Them being very puzzled and being very glad to find someone else who was not sending three love letters a day. But, i also imagine the Master who knows what a submissive can give and wants that level and depth of feeling in His life. i want to meet that Man. i know He exists, as i am genetically built for Him, and He has to be out there. He would thrive on my intensity and my neediness. It would make Him feel more alive and more Manly. It would invigorate Him . . . maybe i am imagining things.

i know this is a long post, but it has been good to have feedback and to consider after hearing it that i am not all alone.

Most sincerely,

sweetecho

(in reply to losttreasure)

Post #: 33

RE: Wannabes, phonies, HNGs, etc. - 4/22/2006 5:19:57 AM

bandit25

Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline

sweetecho,

What makes you think that "real" submissives don't get hurt? There's no guard against pain, at least, none that is effective. Everyone, including Doms/Masters/Owners get hurt. It's part of being alive...living life.

Honey, no one knows how to handle all situations. Slow down. Take things slower. I get asked for pictures, my phone number, etc. all the time. Just say no. Tell him you want to get to know him a bit first. If he can't invest some time now, then he's not going to want to later.

Good luck.

(in reply to sweetecho)

Post #: 34

RE: Wannabes, phonies, HNGs, etc. - 4/22/2006 5:30:25 AM

fastlane

Posts: 2159
Joined: 5/26/2005
Status: offline

Your sentiments are echoed by many here, Sweet.
I think you are on the right path and have learned along the way. Perhaps you have now found your true Master, but if not, he is out there!

Onward, Kevin

_____________________________

Just because it hurts, doesn't necessarily make it a bad thing.

(in reply to bandit25)

Post #: 35

RE: Wannabes, phonies, HNGs, etc. - 4/22/2006 5:35:38 AM

sublizzie

Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline

Not all Masters/Doms want pictures right away. Not all Masters/Doms demand immediate IMs, etc.

I've been where you are right now. It's exciting and scary and something I think we all have to go through so we learn what to look for in someone who is NOT what you want.

About 6 months ago (after spending 5-6 years on-line) I finally screwed up my courage and let a friend who is a real, local Dom/Master talk me into meeting some real, local people. That was terrifying for me, but good too. I'm now meeting people who don't demand instant obedience or nekkid pictures or any of the stuff that on-line "Master/Doms" had insisted on. They are *real* and want to know the inside me, who I am.

I did meet a few people on-line who were real and did not demand anything of me but who became friends. I have heard stories from real people I have met lately who met on-line and did the distance thing before one of them moved to the other one's area. They've been together for a few years now (5+) and are married so it can work. But they are the exception, I think.

IMO real is better than on-line. On-line is fun for making friends and sharing ideas. More than that, I'm not so sure. I might be convinced, by the right person, to try but it would take a LOT of convincing.

(in reply to sweetecho)

Post #: 36

RE: Wannabes, phonies, HNGs, etc. - 4/22/2006 5:54:23 AM

CrappyDom

Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline

Sweetecho,

quote:

For example, They all expect a submissive to jump into intimacy immediately. They all want nude photos within hours of Their approach. They all want to IM right away. Everything is Now Now Now.

quote:

Obviously, Masters, as Men, are not made with the same emotional capacity as woman and cannot come anywhere near the incredible depth of feeling that is found in a true submissive.

How would you react to a man saying all women want is money and they only flirt with you till your wallet is empty? My guess is you would be offended, what would your reaction be if you then found out his experience was based on strip clubs?

Making the statements you did based people you have met in chat rooms and online is just as one sided. Neither is true, but as the song goes, "looking for love in all the wrong places"!

There is no doubt people get their hearts broken in real life but if you are part of a real world community, even one as dysfunctional as ours, people can't just disappear. Even in a place as large as San Francisco, you earn a bad reputation and it sticks with you. People ask for references, watch you play, see how you socialize with others, etc.

www.soj.org and www.tes.org both have lists of local groups, do Google searches, etc. Another thing I cannot stress enough is do some reading, not online stuff but non fiction. Almost anything from www.greenerypress.com is worth reading. If you only buy one book, I would suggest Dossie Easton's The Bottoming Book, which despite the name is the best book out there on D/s. John Warren's book (someone who posts here) was my first S&M related book and it is excellent although as a primer I still recommend Dossies, plus it is cheaper! Anyway, John's book is The Loving Dominant.

If I could only give one bit of advice it would be to shut your ears/heart and examine a dominants actions. Do they match his words, does he treat little people well or step on them, does he follow through, is there always an excuse or does he simply admit a mistake and correct it, and see how he speaks of his ex partners, especially vanilla ones.

(in reply to sweetecho)

Post #: 37

RE: Wannabes, phonies, HNGs, etc. - 4/22/2006 6:11:13 AM

ladychatterley

Posts: 132
Joined: 3/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetecho

... i think that maybe i am not really "getting" it. Maybe i am not a real submissive or i would not be getting hurt! A real submissive would know what to do and how to handle the insanely difficult situations that arise with getting to know a Master . . .

There are some almost impassable situations that arise with Masters. For example, They all expect a submissive to jump into intimacy immediately. They all want nude photos within hours of Their approach. They all want to IM right away. Everything is Now Now Now. They are all in a very great hurry in the beginning, and this is a little hard for me because i tend to give in to it and become intimate (and mind you, the Master and i have not met yet -- we are still only online) by sharing my needs with Them.

...i have a feeling i am going to be saying No a lot more often. i no longer feel i have to prove i am a submissive to any One. i have paid my dues. Should He want to know my submission,

In MY Opinion, you have sort of bought into the fantasy realm that some men project as a way to justify their bad behavior.

In MY Opinion, the submissive actually has a lot more power at the beginning than in a nilla relationship.

First of all, there are more men than women into kinky sex. The law of supply and demand still applies.

Second of all, the one giving up the power gets, in my opinion, to set ground-rules for how that power is surrendered.

My rules: E-mail to get through the checklists. I will, personally, be clear about my sexual interests (Not going there! Not a must have, but if you like it, sure, Yes, Yes, Yes) but I just don't do the e-mail, IM or phone sex. And if they won't talk about my interests (politics, intellectual, spiritual) then I don't bother.
A few phone calls are fine, but they are first to establish chemistry and then establish coffee. (And I call them and use *67.)
Coffee is wonderful and from there any real surrender can happen.

These on-line guys demanding nude photos and all that, my guess is they're just killing time till their wife gets back from the mall. This is free and if they called a phone sex line she'd see it on the credit card bill...

If I might suggest some advice; if it were me, I'd have a less sexual picture. You are very beautiful, but in my experience, some men lose manners when sex is clearly on the table. It is always on the table here, so some men will lose manners (I think the "Good Virgin/Bad Whore" dichotomy runs deelpy in our culture, not that it is right, but it is there). Your picture may give some men the sense that anything's OK and I expect they may be more demanding because your picture is as sexual as it is.

(in reply to CrappyDom)

Post #: 38

RE: Wannabes, phonies, HNGs, etc. - 4/22/2006 7:43:03 AM

sweetecho

Posts: 15
Joined: 9/22/2005
Status: offline

Dear Ones/ones,

Thank You/you for giving so much here. i deeply appreciate the communication.

To bandit25, well, that is what i imagined. We take ourselves through so many mental convolutions when we are distressed. i appreciate being reminded of other people's pain. It is very easy to get isolated in it.

To CrappyDom, thank You for all the very good references. i will, indeed, take a look at those books and at those web sites. However, on the gender points, i honestly do not believe Men are made to feel in the way women are. i believe a Man can appreciate and use a woman's feeling nature to His advantage, to make Himself stronger, but that assumes He has some understanding that He may not have received in His socialization.

i am open to hearing more from You on these points. i must say, though, i do expect Men to have money, much in the same way You might expect that a woman knows how to cook. i have no problem with traditional gender lines. As You and sublizzie point out, i need to get out there to actually see a Dominant's actions.

sublizzie, i hear myself in your words.

And, ladychatterley, while i know You are right, i am not always able to adjust my behavior accordingly. Do You know how well i think of Men? i know You are right, of course, about a Man IMing me while His wife is out at the mall, and anyone would have to be stupid not to think of that, but You know, i never do think of that. In the moment, i am as trusting as a newborn: it would just never occur to me that a Man would do that, and certainly not to me.

Please know that i am not justifying my behavior. i just saying what happens, as a matter of course, in my dealings with Doms/Masters. i also believe i deserve a really wonderful Master and probably assume that i have attracted such, until disappointed later.

i also understand what You are saying about my photo. To be honest with You, i like to hear that a Man is interested in my body. It is a welcome relief after being in the vanilla world all day where everyone is just an economic unit and there is not supposed to be any acknowledgement of gender.

i never really thought about why i placed a sexual photo here, and i thank You for bringing it up. i can say now, having considered it, that it is there because of how it makes me feel about myself. i am very proud to be feminine, and i am proud to show it. And, there may be a Master out there who gets it on aesthetic and philosophic grounds . . .maybe. Anyway, the photo stays for me, not for Them.

i am practicing more caution, though, as the sting of the hurt is still with me. i must have said No ten times to a Dom here last night. And His pushing me a little here and there did not get me to budge, but i know i need to be constantly vigilant. Thank you for giving so much to me -- i needed to be reminded that maybe the wife is at the mall.

Sincerely, warmly,

sweetecho

(in reply to ladychatterley)

Post #: 39

RE: Wannabes, phonies, HNGs, etc. - 4/22/2006 9:54:57 AM

ladychatterley

Posts: 132
Joined: 3/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

Do they match his words, does he treat little people well or step on them, does he follow through, is there always an excuse or does he simply admit a mistake and correct it, and see how he speaks of his ex partners, especially vanilla ones.

Crappy Dom, I think you are brilliant and I love your posts. This, however, unnerved me--why is it more important how he speaks of his nilla exes than his non-nilla exes? I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but it felt to me like it implied it was more important to treat the nilla exes well than the non-nillas?

On another note--I'm sure I'm in the minority here, and I may very well change my mind, but I find it easier on-line than at events. Granted, I don't go to clubs, but at munches and TES meetings I find that 5 men who I know darn well I'm not interested in monopolize my time (age is an issue for me, and if a guy is old enough to be my dad, I'm just rarely interested), don't pick up non-verbal cues and sort of think the longer we talk the more likely I'll be to go out with them and then there is one guy I might be interested in talking to, but he, whoever he is, gets cut off by one of the aggressive ones and me trying to be polite (but using very clear non-verbal cues, like stepping back, glancing at my watch, making limited eye contact and looking, not at the floor, but at other people, folding my arms over my chest if really necessary) can't ever talk to the guy that won't shovel his way into the monopolizers.

Whereas on-line I have much greater control over who I talk to and how I spend my time. Just my two cents.

(in reply to CrappyDom)

Post #: 40

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