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RE: More on Coming Out - 4/20/2006 7:15:53 AM

mixielicous

Posts: 1283
Joined: 4/6/2006
From: Boston area, Massachusetts
Status: offline

in response to LA- yes this is very true, just in my case, they go hand in hand.not the case for everyone.

and wyrdrich - are we going to shelter the world forever? yes, i understand i cannot speak from the POV of a parent, but wouldnt it just be the same as letting your 7 year old believe babys come from storks? what if that same 7 year old sees men holding hands, are we going to tell them they are just good friends? wouldnt it be better for a child to learn of something different, before they develop the stigmas that their parents carry?

(in reply to WyrdRich)

Post #: 21

RE: More on Coming Out - 4/20/2006 7:17:23 AM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

I personally think there is a huge difference between coming out when you want to and because you have to (which is the OP experience).

When you are in control, you can determine who you tell and how much you tell them; it increases the likelihood for positive outcomes.

I came out for two reasons: myself & my family and for those who feel alone.

I actually feel I protect my family and myself by being out -- no one can try to use my BDSM to blackmail me or accuse me of lying because I'm out. I also show my kinky/poly family that I value them enough to be myself with them and that I'm willing to back them. As for vanilla friends and family, frankly either they accept me or they don't; when I give them answers to the questions they ask I show them respect by both being honest while not forcing them to deal with more than they are currently capable of.

By coming out, by doing college panels, by writing, by using my name on my books, I send a message to those we feel they are alone "You are not alone" and that is great help to their own emotional well-being. It also gives them some hope that they can find information and learn more about themselves. I have held too many people who thought they were evil or sick to believe that being in a closet was a good thing. Even if those people themselves never went further than being out to me and an online community, at least they are learning to value themselves.

There are many levels of being out (I did a workshop on this once at GLLA). Not everyone should be out on all those levels because each person has to make decisions about what is safest for them. However, just having being out enough to be on this site (and that is a level of being out) means that someone out there could if they so desired find you and know what you like. Each level of being out is a risk; don't fool yourself into thinking that scene names and anonymous servers provide you with 100% protection.

Unless you ever come out to yourself, you will be doing or saying or thinking or reading or looking at etc things that others may see and interprete. I personally want some power to influence how others see me and know what is going on around me so that I'm not surprised one day with the cops or the moral authorities knock on my door with their brown shirts and bully clubs. If those authorities should come, I know who else is out enough to back me and help me.

Sorry negative Nazi images and speeches running my head now.....

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to KittenWithaTwist)

Post #: 22

RE: More on Coming Out - 4/20/2006 7:18:28 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

And when some unsuspecting parent has to explain to their 7 year old why that man is wearing a dog collar???? That doesn't expand our acceptance, it increases the hostility. Making the vanilla world a non-consensual part of your scene is just plain selfish and wrong in my opinion and those who insist on doing it quickly lose my support and my friendship.

Be who you are but respect the rights of people who aren't you.

There's a balance that must be struck- when does my freedom of expression turn into lack of respect? I personally find a lot of the clothes people wear horrendous and wonder what demon must have possessed them in order to consider THAT a good choice to wear?

But they aren't actively doing anything to me. If parents have children, they have to expect that interacting with the world will mean answering questions- that's their job. And a dog collar is a pretty darn tame thing- "Oh it's just something fun she likes to wear." End of story.

There IS a line of respect there, there IS a line of balance. But where is the line? It's not at all a clear situation. My sister was annoyed at me using the word "masturbation" in the kids section at a store. She also had the Calvin Klein store take down it's display because the male mannequins had erections under their clothes. I find that ridiculous.

I personally find parents who don't take their children out of movie theaters when they start to talk or cry to be a lot more of a social disrespect than someone wearing a collar in random public.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to WyrdRich)

Post #: 23

RE: More on Coming Out - 4/20/2006 9:05:41 AM

sothernnyte

Posts: 95
Joined: 11/22/2005
Status: offline

i think it is important for us to come out not necessarily to gain acceptance of any kind but to make others aware that we exist and we are not going to be pushed back into the box/closet. they may never accept it and that is fine by me. but i am not going to hide or not acknowledge myself and my lover and our children to the outside straight world.
i think what Melissa Etheridge was referring to was just that. Come out. Show them we exist and we are so much greater in numbers than they realize. Great enough numbers to make differences...maybe not in personal cases such as yours KittenwithaTwist... but perhaps in the overall view of gays and lesbians together.
kind of like the fight for civil rights by African Americans... not to say the two cases are the same... but even though African Americans fought for their rights, equality etc.... many still didnt agree with it or accept it. but in my opinion it was the best thing for that particular race. had they not come out and fought and stood up for themselves ... i hate to imagine the hate and evils that they would be subjected to.
maybe it doesnt gain you anything personally to come out. but at least when you walk down the street with your girlfriend...you dont have to say ..."this is my friend..."
agree or not... i can proudly say that "this is my girlfriend, my lover, my spouse" and it doesn tmatter if you like it or not. but if you plan on me being in your life...then you will have to learn to deal with it..because it will not change.
and for the record..i came out in 1999. my mom was torn apart. i was seperated from them for over 2 years after that. and now... now we are closer than we were before i came out. the trust is stronger. and my mom loves my girlfriend...sometimes even more than me i think...
so think long-term. this isnt an instant gratification process.
sincerely
sothern

(in reply to WyrdRich)

Post #: 24

RE: More on Coming Out - 4/20/2006 9:15:46 AM

KittenWithaTwist

Posts: 490
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline

quote:

you dont HAVE to come out, and for many people, yes, it can make life worse, but i would rather not live a lie, i prefer not to decieve anyone, because it just makes things more complicated in the end.

Do you really believe you're living a lie because you don't share certain information with the world? I don't. I don't tell my boss or my friends that I have done some not-too-kosher things with popsicles, or that I have fantasies about being used as tableware. I don't think I'm lying to them because I choose not to say I'm a sadomasochist.

Most of the people I see everyday know that I'm an environmentalist, a tree-hugger, an intellectual, an avid reader, and a girl who loves weiner dogs. Most of them know I live with my boyfriend, and that my family lives really far away.

There are things they don't know. They don't know I'm a slob, or that my favorite foods are artichokes and pomegranates. I'm not lying because they don't know these things. And I'm not lying to anyone because I don't wear a triskele on my arm, or a collar around my throat.

_____________________________

"Time travel: It's a cornocopia of disturbing concepts." ~Ron Stoppable

(in reply to mixielicous)

Post #: 25

RE: More on Coming Out - 4/20/2006 9:26:10 AM

KittenWithaTwist

Posts: 490
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline

On an unrelated-to-my-actual-post note, I would feel more comfortable being out about being bisexual that I would being out about BDSM. In the community that I live in, there are *many* out lesbians, bisexuals, and gays, and it is possible that if I were to come out, I would be sheltered among their numbers. There is definitely a stigma of weird that comes attached to being out as an S&Mer.

Of course, since I am out as neither (within my current social circle), I can only admit that as a possibility. I don't plan on testing the waters.

And on a somewhat related note, I went back into the closet for my mother's benefit and mine, as her daughter and her friend. I told her I'm "normal" again. She was very happy. And in turn, that made me happy.

I'm not actually "normal" and I probably never will be, but now that we live apart, she'll never need to know that it's a falsehood.

_____________________________

"Time travel: It's a cornocopia of disturbing concepts." ~Ron Stoppable

(in reply to sothernnyte)

Post #: 26

RE: More on Coming Out - 4/20/2006 11:33:18 AM

perverseangelic

Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dustyn

This whole concept of "coming out" implies a subconscious acceptance that what we do is somehow "wrong" or "not normal". It's who we are. If someone asks, then I tell them and vice versa. What I do is my own business, but I also refuse to shrink away from questions, if they are asked sincerely.

I see what you're saying, but I disagree that it implies that it is wrong. To me, it just implies that it -isn't- the norm (meaning the thing that most people do) and as such isn't very visible. For me, it's about raising visibility, not afirming that my perversion is ok,.

I -know- it's ok. I just want other people to be unable to ignore it.

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to Dustyn)

Post #: 27

RE: More on Coming Out - 4/20/2006 12:41:54 PM

mixielicous

Posts: 1283
Joined: 4/6/2006
From: Boston area, Massachusetts
Status: offline

this is of course, only my personal opinion, as applied to myself.

I feel, as being in the closet, i am denying who i am, not that i am not revealing it [in reference to your veggie comment], but activly hiding it, and by doing so, i would be living a lie, yes.

(in reply to KittenWithaTwist)

Post #: 28

RE: More on Coming Out - 4/20/2006 1:10:37 PM

MsBlackheart

Posts: 54
Joined: 7/27/2005
From: Memphis TN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

And when some unsuspecting parent has to explain to their 7 year old why that man is wearing a dog collar???? That doesn't expand our acceptance, it increases the hostility. Making the vanilla world a non-consensual part of your scene is just plain selfish and wrong in my opinion and those who insist on doing it quickly lose my support and my friendship.

Be who you are but respect the rights of people who aren't you.

Massively valid point, necessary and well said. Being out doesn't negate personal responsibility.

-edited to bold the part I was particularly referring to. Parenting, eh, don't wanna touch that.

< Message edited by MsBlackheart -- 4/20/2006 1:17:14 PM >

_____________________________

"Reality kicks Fantasy's ass every time" -Me

(in reply to WyrdRich)

Post #: 29

RE: More on Coming Out - 4/20/2006 1:21:36 PM

Moloch

Posts: 1090
Joined: 6/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

And when some unsuspecting parent has to explain to their 7 year old why that man is wearing a dog collar???? That doesn't expand our acceptance, it increases the hostility. Making the vanilla world a non-consensual part of your scene is just plain selfish and wrong in my opinion and those who insist on doing it quickly lose my support and my friendship.

Be who you are but respect the rights of people who aren't you.

Funny you should say that my good friend just explained to her 7 year old son what it means.

(in reply to WyrdRich)

Post #: 30

RE: More on Coming Out - 4/20/2006 1:31:11 PM

mixielicous

Posts: 1283
Joined: 4/6/2006
From: Boston area, Massachusetts
Status: offline

(in reply to Moloch)

Post #: 31

RE: More on Coming Out - 4/21/2006 4:36:12 AM

SusanofO

Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mixielicous

this is of course, only my personal opinion, as applied to myself.

Mixielicious and others are valuable, and wonderful - just the way they are (as if that needed clarifying).

To me, the above is something I aspire to always remember - (and hope that others do as well) - a general truism that applies to human beings - that doesn't really, as a generality, "hold still", (or need to be qualified) - If one truly respects others as human beings - and can separate that concept from another thing I believe is true; that each will hold their own opinions for their own very personal (and sometimes as yet un-self-discovered) reasons.

I believe this is due to their circumstances and the fact that people are truly unique individuals - (regardless of what "a majority"- in or outside of - a bdsm or other 'sub-cultural' "collective") might think.

I think peoples' life experiences, and inherent ability to ask themselves (and others) questions, and reflect on the answers with honesty and consideration of their own and others' circumstances (if the other's are known or can be intuited to a relaible degree), purely for their own self-growth, can cause people's opinions and the reason(s) for their actions, to change (or not).

I think that is how people forge their life's path (with or without a Dom, Master or Mistress, with or without a submissive or a slave(and vice-versa).

I think life is an amazing journey - and blessed be a 'road less travelled' and the reasons that lead people to it. To each their own.
And may all enjoy the trudging, leaping, running, happy, sad, fulfilling, restive marathon walk down their own path.
*Something I sense that many others, really do already know. Cheers!

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/21/2006 5:35:13 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to mixielicous)

Post #: 32

RE: More on Coming Out - 4/21/2006 4:47:16 AM

MsMacComb

Posts: 808
Joined: 3/30/2005
From: My Mothers womb.
Status: offline

The important thing is not "coming out" to others for acceptance or validation, but rather coming to terms with yourself. If you are at peace with yourself within your heart, your mind and your relationships with those most important to you, thats the most important thing. If others accept you, all the better, if they don't tell them to find a good cross breeze and go fly a fucking kite.

_____________________________

Not looking for anyone for anything, any time.

(in reply to WyrdRich)

Post #: 33

RE: More on Coming Out - 4/21/2006 4:50:40 AM

LadiesBladewing

Posts: 944
Joined: 8/31/2005
Status: offline

Coming out is not the be-all and end-all of life, but it -is- important, in ways that have nothing to do with whether or not it helps to be more accepted... Coming out, for me, is a point of self-honesty. I never have to worry about losing my job because someone discovers that I am 'different'. I don't -hide- that I am different. Coming out means that my ex can't use my life choices against me -- what I am was mentioned in our MARRIAGE documentation (within the context of our vows), and was never a weapon between us.

Coming out is something that we do for ourselves, not for anyone else, or even for our community. It enables us to live honestly and forthrightly -- as a side bonus, it lets people come to know individuals who are different in one way or another, and to see that, despite the differences, they are more like us than unlike.

For those who have been "outed", I can honestly say that it is -much- more satisfying to set the terms on being out by oneself, rather than being caught in a lie -- when we are caught -hiding- a part of ourselves, people tend to think that we are -ashamed- of that part of ourselves, that we are doing something -wrong-, or are just angry that they feel that they've been deceived. How much better it is to be forthright -- there may be some shock, and there will -always- be individuals who are completely unable to accept differences in others, but, in general, when we set the time and conditions of our own self-expression, are forthright and honest, and present the information in a caring, loving way, self-outing bears so -little- resemblence to being "outed" in ways that look like we've spent a lifetime lying that they're not even the same animal.

I have to agree with Melissa Ethridge on this one. If you're going to express yourself and your differences, do so with honesty, love and forthrightness -- both towards yourself and towards those you care about. Be honest, make the first move, and don't be ashamed of your choices. Be gentle, be respectful, but be truthful first. The benefits are often intangible, but have a -huge- impact on the flow of your life from that point on.

Lady Zephyr

_____________________________

"Should have", "could have", "would have" and "can't" may be the most dangerous phrases in the English language.
Bladewing Enclave

(in reply to KittenWithaTwist)

Post #: 34

RE: More on Coming Out - 4/21/2006 4:51:20 AM

Phoenixandnika

Posts: 748
Joined: 4/22/2005
From: Aberdeen Maryland
Status: offline

Qoute:
And when some unsuspecting parent has to explain to their 7 year old why that man is wearing a dog collar????
end qoute

I laughed when I read this statement. I know MANY people who are not involved in the bdsm lifestyle or M/s relationships who wear collars. Goths, punks, rockers, and others wear collars simply as a fashion statement. The reality is there will ALWAYS be people that judge you for you appearance. That is part of the largest problems I see with society, but that is simply a reality EVERYONE deals with regardless if your M/s or not.

Nika{Phoenix}

_____________________________

"Life is neither a bed of roses nor a carpet of thorns, it's just what you make of it."

(in reply to WyrdRich)

Post #: 35

RE: More on Coming Out - 4/21/2006 5:08:25 AM

LadiesBladewing

Posts: 944
Joined: 8/31/2005
Status: offline

Respecting the rights of others should -not- have to mean hiding who and what we are. We can be respectful without being "in the closet" and hiding who we are from the community.

There are aspects of the lifestyle that probably -shouldn't- be displayed on the streets (especially for those for whom this is predominantly a sexual fetish). There is a time and place for sex, and it is, in my opinion, a relatively private thing. Unlike animals, we don't display copulation in public -- for those for whom this is a sexual act, it is also a private act. In those cases, yes, it should be kept private, but there -still- is no reason to lie. A parent, being questioned by a curious seedling, is perfectly within his or her rights NOT to explain, but to say "That is something adults do sometimes, and it isn't usually shown on the streets." How hard is that?

For those for whom aspects of this lifestyle are relationship- or spiritually- motivated, dominance and submission may have nothing to do with subjects that can't be discussed in public. Any one of us is able to explain that we are in love, and that we wear symbols of our love for another person. That is how I explained the collar to -my- seedlings when they asked... that the collar was a gift between us, that showed the way that we loved one another.

There are always ways to talk to our seedlings -- some of those ways will teach our human seedlings to respect others and cherish the dignity of human choice, and others that will make them fearful and teach them to hate and revile that which is different. Hiding and pretending that wide variety does not exist in the world does -not- benefit our children, but being a person of dignity and respect for oneself and others -and- being able and willing to share that with our children will go a long way towards creating a healthier, more honest world.

Lady Zephyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

And when some unsuspecting parent has to explain to their 7 year old why that man is wearing a dog collar???? That doesn't expand our acceptance, it increases the hostility. Making the vanilla world a non-consensual part of your scene is just plain selfish and wrong in my opinion and those who insist on doing it quickly lose my support and my friendship.

Be who you are but respect the rights of people who aren't you.

_____________________________

"Should have", "could have", "would have" and "can't" may be the most dangerous phrases in the English language.
Bladewing Enclave

(in reply to WyrdRich)

Post #: 36

RE: More on Coming Out - 4/21/2006 5:09:52 AM

slaveladyj

Posts: 161
Joined: 2/7/2006
Status: offline

I think my family has always known, even if it was never spoken that I had this side to me. In recent years, I've been much more opened about it, but since it wasn't really hidden to begin with, there's been no reprecussions. Heck, I even go shopping with my 24 year old daughter and buy toys. However, I did confide in a friend once, which hurt my business life. Had to leave my job, but find I'm happier with my new one.

(in reply to KittenWithaTwist)

Post #: 37

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