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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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It is truly a shame that many American muslims were hurt after 9-11 I have nothing but sympathy for those people.

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Muslim-Americans were killed in the 9/11 towers crash. Many were rounded up off the streets and held captive afterwards.

Yes I know, this was specifically in reference to a post I was quoting.

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I also truly believe that the majority of these peaceful, law abiding muslims would not want the mosque built in the shadow of the WTC.

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However sincere your belief may be you offer no knowledge of the truth of this statement, nor do you have any.

It's a no brainer. I believe the majority of muslims in the US are law abiding peaceful citizens. Why would these people be in support of a project that is causing so much outrage and hurt. A peace loving muslim who wanted to build bridges would be against the building of this house.

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If the people behind the expansion of cordoba house were truly all about the 'healing' and 'moving past 9-11' they would surely and without hesitation scrap the plans and consider another project at a later date when time itself had done the healing.

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We do not do freedom of religion by your calender. Not in this nation.

Is that the Royal we? Read what I said. I wasn't talking about this nation's policy on freedom of religion. I was talking about the decision by the people behind the expansion of cordoba house to build so soon after the atrocity, knowing that wounds haven't even begun to heal.

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These people must see the hurt that this proposed building is causing in the NYC community, if they honestly want to conciliate relations then why is this house still an issue?

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Because it has obviously been politicized by the likes of Newt Gingrich, et al.

Politics? This has nothing to do with politics this is all about the feelings of the bereaved.

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Also let me disclaim that before you throw further derogatory accusations - I am not talking about the peaceful law abiding muslim community in the US I am talking about the people behind the project, the former obviously have no say in the matter.

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Willing to wager you have not discussed the matter with "the people behind the project." So, how the fuck do you know?

How the 'fuck' do I know what? I know the people behind the project want to expand cordoba house and at this time. Everybody knows that. I know they didn't ask the American muslim community if they were for or against the plans because I am pretty dam sure the answer would have been in the vast majority of that community; against.

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All of your statements, overflowing with certainty and so effusive with sympathy, are nothing but your unsubstantiated opinions.

What makes you think my sympathy towards American muslim's is effusive? I have genuine sympathy for the peace loving section of that community who live not only here in the States but throughout the world. Their religion on some level has been hijacked by nutcases, why wouldn't anyone have genuine sympathy?

Also what exactly have I wrote that is unsubstantiated. I clearly pointed out that it was my own personal beliefs that the majority of peaceful law abiding muslim citizens would be against the project. I followed that up by saying it is a no brainer, that's what I believe. What else is unsubstantiated or overflowing with certainty.

Meh!

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Honestly, when the fuck did we begin voting in this country on constructing houses of worship? And why can't you make the connection between Islamic families who lost loved ones in 9/11 and their house of worship? Do only Christian and Jewish families have standing? Perhaps the Islamic families are afraid to voice their opinions for fear of reprisals in this hysterical political environment.

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
You know what, I am one of the most consistent posters on this board when it comes to tolerating all religions and beliefs. I have had those who were Atheists flame me for advocating for Christians...

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ORIGINAL: GotSteel

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
You know what, I am one of the most consistent posters on this board when it comes to tolerating all religions and beliefs. I have had those who were Atheists flame me for advocating for Christians...

When you've been flamed by Atheists it's generally been because of your intolerance of their beliefs or positions.

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

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"We do not need to fear Islam, we need to embrace it, and take the arrows that extremists use to convince moderate Muslims to fear us"

I did not mean we all need to go join a mosque by that statement. I meant we all need to embrace tolerating their religion... come on, seriously, are you THAT overcome by your own prejudices that you could not see the intention behind that statement? We need to embrace Islam as one of the many religions practiced in this country. We need to embrace that they have the right to build a place of worship anywhere they like if they own the property and it is zoned for it. We need to embrace Freedom of Religion.

Many of your fellow Americans are Muslim. Walk on their rights, you are walking on your own.


Edited to add, I am quickly finding you to be one of the more irrational and emotionally out of control posters on these boards... seriously

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Not from my perspective...

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And I'm quickly finding you to be like a slug squirming in its own ooze in this debate because you revert to vague references of tolerance every time your RIGHTS tact is blunted.

Give me your definition of tolerance. Where does it go past allowing them to worship in peace, according them respect for their beliefs and giving them the same protections under the Constitution? Where does it accept violence from one but not from others?

I'm just curious as to what tolerance really means to you and what constitutes intolerance because from what I see, intolerance seems to be not agreeing with you, not embracing. Tolerating doesn't seem to fit within the confines of tolerance.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML
Honestly, when the fuck did we begin voting in this country on constructing houses of worship? And why can't you make the connection between Islamic families who lost loved ones in 9/11 and their house of worship? Do only Christian and Jewish families have standing? Perhaps the Islamic families are afraid to voice their opinions for fear of reprisals in this hysterical political environment.

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ORIGINAL: GotSteel

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Not from my perspective...

How so? Do you think your intolerance isn't what upsets them or do you consider yourself tolerant of atheist positions or do you think something else is going on?

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When I say I advocate for "tolerance", i am saying let people do what they are free to do in peace and leave them the fuck alone.

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

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And I'm quickly finding you to be like a slug squirming in its own ooze in this debate because you revert to vague references of tolerance every time your RIGHTS tact is blunted.

Give me your definition of tolerance. Where does it go past allowing them to worship in peace, according them respect for their beliefs and giving them the same protections under the Constitution? Where does it accept violence from one but not from others?

I'm just curious as to what tolerance really means to you and what constitutes intolerance because from what I see, intolerance seems to be not agreeing with you, not embracing. Tolerating doesn't seem to fit within the confines of tolerance.

I have said nothing wrong here, I keep repeating myself over and over again...

Look up "tolerance" in the dictionary... tolerating something and accepting it are two different things. When I say I advocate for "tolerance", i am saying let people do what they are free to do in peace and leave them the fuck alone.

Accepting them would be going over and having dinner with them and making friends with them and being buddy buddy with them... I don't expect you or anyone else to do that, although I have chosen to accept people who practice Islam the same way I accept Christians or Buddhists, or anyone else for that matter

I think you are conflating again. There are several threads going on in this section right now, one of which is about nonMuslim extremists... perhaps in your mind the fact that thread exists means I am posting on it and having arguments about one form of violence being better than another. I don't know where this "violence" is coming from, or tolerating it or not tolerating it. I can't remember posting about other people being violent or not violent.

Religion can be a force of peace or a force of violence, and in my study of the topic, it matters not what the faith is, but the socio-economic factors that exist around that religion that determines which religion is used to engender... I have academic sources about the topic if you care to read them

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Here is what I think of the topic, every time an atheist ridicules a belief in god to people who have a belief in god, they are showing a lack of tolerance.

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ORIGINAL: GotSteel

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Here is what I think of the topic, every time an atheist ridicules a belief in god to people who have a belief in god, they are showing a lack of tolerance.

Ok, I agree with that statement. I also think that every time you ridicule an atheist for doing that you're showing a lack of tolerance.

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

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ORIGINAL: GotSteel

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Here is what I think of the topic, every time an atheist ridicules a belief in god to people who have a belief in god, they are showing a lack of tolerance.

Ok, I agree with that statement. I also think that every time you ridicule an atheist for doing that you're showing a lack of tolerance.

I don't want to derail this thread into your pet topic of discussion... it has nothing to do with this topic.

You can think I am intolerant all you want because I don't like it when I see people denigrated for their faith. I just have a different idea of what tolerance is and what it isn't

I also did not know the bedrock of atheism was to ridicule theists... *shrugs*

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So Julia what do you think of my supposition that ALL RELIGION IS BULLSHIT.  I attack no one for their belief, I do not deprive them of their right to worship, I just remind them I BELIEVE all religion is bullshit.  Then I usually have to remind them that the "free exercise" clause also implies the the converse, FREEDOM FROM religion.  Over all you are correct, in that this is the usual fucking fear mongering that the GOP does so well since the end of WWII.  Fear is all they got.

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ALL RELIGION IS BULLSHIT. 

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ALL RELIGION IS BULLSHIT and religious people are ignorant, not as intelligent as atheists, and illogical

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ORIGINAL: jlf1961

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ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

You're all serious about this shit aren't you?

Obama...no birth certificate, Muslim trying to get our country affixed on his gig....indoctrinating us all....

It's incredibly fucked up that we're allowing a Muslim church/worship place...etc. into what many would consider "holy ground"...but you know what....

I don't know either....but I think we have to stick to our values.

(Not entirely sure what mine exactly are at all times but....)

It's fucked up.  Truly fucked up.

On the other hand....I like things the way they are.

(What the fuck do I know?)

1) It is a community center, NOT a mosque.

2) It is two blocks away from ground zero, in the former Burlington Coat Factory building.

3) There is already a mosque 4 blocks from ground zero, do you want that closed?

4) You really dont believe that birther, Obama is a secret Muslim conspiracy bullshit do you?

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FDD it isn't that it is Islam in those nations, it is because they are fucking THEOCRACIES.

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but in Indonesia women aren't stoned to death, nor are they forced to wear modesty garments

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ORIGINAL: truckinslave

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but in Indonesia women aren't stoned to death, nor are they forced to wear modesty garments

Yet.
There are any number of rights groups reporting on increasing religious intolerance (an absolute hallmark of Islam) in Indonesia. Incrementalism is a recent hallmark. Do you think the Taliban established ironclad control instantly?

Indonesia is among my top half-dozen choices for the next real trouble spot.