A question for the conservatives. Libraries?

A question for the conservatives. Libraries? (Full Version)

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DarkSteven -> A question for the conservatives. Libraries? (8/15/2010 6:48:17 AM)
One conservative mantra is that the government should do less or at least not more regarding welfare, and other aid programs for the have-nots. But I have yet to hear a conservative speak out against the library system. Why is that? Is it because the libraries do not feed any appetites that tend to keep people from bettering themselves? (My impression is that systems designed to maintain the status quo are frowned upon by conservatives, but systems designed to permit people to strive are not.)

NeedToUseYou -> RE: A question for the conservatives. Libraries? (8/15/2010 7:02:11 AM)
Well, my general rule of thumb, is that things available for all are way more palatable than things only offered to one section of the population or another. As in, all whether poor, rich, black, white, Christian, or atheist can walk into a library and gain a benefit, and many do.

brokedickdog -> RE: A question for the conservatives. Libraries? (8/15/2010 7:05:36 AM)
Years back (about 10 of them) there was a proposed tax for the local library system of 3 cents per adult head. It was defeated. Without that funding the library had to cut back hours and services, and also to close some of the branches. At the same time a new stadium was proposed for the university football team. The cost was approximately $50 million. The funding was to be a blend of public and private funding, though I've forgotten the percentages of each. In any case, the city/county as a whole raised the money for the stadium, some from individuals and some from corporate entities. The stadium now, as is common for most large projects these days, carries a corporate sponsors name. Whether this is an issue that can be laid off to a conservative v. liberal battle I can't say. I can say that my community showed through its collective actions that the people are unwilling to pay 3 cents a year to maintain its library system (education) but ARE willing to spend millions for sports (entertainment).

tazzygirl -> RE: A question for the conservatives. Libraries? (8/15/2010 7:09:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven One conservative mantra is that the government should do less or at least not more regarding welfare, and other aid programs for the have-nots. But I have yet to hear a conservative speak out against the library system. Why is that? Is it because the libraries do not feed any appetites that tend to keep people from bettering themselves? (My impression is that systems designed to maintain the status quo are frowned upon by conservatives, but systems designed to permit people to strive are not.) I think smacking around the first amendment would be political suicide for either side.

thishereboi -> RE: A question for the conservatives. Libraries? (8/15/2010 7:12:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven One conservative mantra is that the government should do less or at least not more regarding welfare, and other aid programs for the have-nots. But I have yet to hear a conservative speak out against the library system. I think the government should do more to weed out the assholes who just don't want to work, so that there is more available for those who really need help. Why is that? Is it because the libraries do not feed any appetites that tend to keep people from bettering themselves? (My impression is that systems designed to maintain the status quo are frowned upon by conservatives, but systems designed to permit people to strive are not.) I think libraries are very important to our community and our kids. Why do you think conservatives would speak out against them? Reading is fundamental[:)]

thishereboi -> RE: A question for the conservatives. Libraries? (8/15/2010 7:18:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: brokedickdog Years back (about 10 of them) there was a proposed tax for the local library system of 3 cents per adult head. It was defeated. Without that funding the library had to cut back hours and services, and also to close some of the branches. At the same time a new stadium was proposed for the university football team. The cost was approximately $50 million. The funding was to be a blend of public and private funding, though I've forgotten the percentages of each. In any case, the city/county as a whole raised the money for the stadium, some from individuals and some from corporate entities. The stadium now, as is common for most large projects these days, carries a corporate sponsors name. Whether this is an issue that can be laid off to a conservative v. liberal battle I can't say. I can say that my community showed through its collective actions that the people are unwilling to pay 3 cents a year to maintain its library system (education) but ARE willing to spend millions for sports (entertainment). I don't get the right vs left thing either. I do know that the city I live in leans heavily to the right and we have 3 libraries. Haven't put in a stadium, but I guess people can drive to another city to see the games.

maybemaybenot -> RE: A question for the conservatives. Libraries? (8/15/2010 7:31:24 AM)
I have never thought of the library system as a " welfare " type program. To me, it is a public service program. No one group benifits any more than the other. Granted until you brought this thread up.. I have never considered it at all Having said that.. here in the Democratic of Democratic states, with our Democratic governor and our 77.5% Democratic state legislature, they have cut funding by 28% this year and expect that to rise to 29% next year for libraries. I can only conclude from my state legislature that here in Mass. it is the liberals who are more prone to take away a system that is designed to help all people strive. Cuz you can bet your bottom dollar that some of that 28% was re allocated to some social welfare system or one of our famous debacles like Cash for Clunkers. mbmbn

DarkSteven -> RE: A question for the conservatives. Libraries? (8/15/2010 7:35:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot I can only conclude from my state legislature that here in Mass. it is the liberals who are more prone to take away a system that is designed to help all people strive. Cuz you can bet your bottom dollar that some of that 28% was re allocated to some social welfare system or one of our famous debacles like Cash for Clunkers. mbmbn I haven't seen that any public administrators have the mentality you've described, of a limited pot of money with trade-offs. I've only seen "We have money" and "We don't have money". And if you have money, you spend on the programs you favor; and if you don't, you cut back on the programs you don't like. Never seen reallocation yet.

maybemaybenot -> RE: A question for the conservatives. Libraries? (8/15/2010 7:56:14 AM)
I could be wrong, DS. But here in Mass, we have a balanced budget requirement. Is that not a limited pot of $$ ? You have X amount of Dollars and have to assign those dollars to where you believe the $$ will be best served ? And I am mindful that the our State balanced budget requirement does not include federal dollars, only state dollars. I'm not an economics girl, so I very well could be wrong on that one. mbmbn

Rule -> RE: A question for the conservatives. Libraries? (8/15/2010 8:08:47 AM)
Conservatives have often been proponents of education. Employers need educated people. Libraries are a community effort at population improvement. Unfortunately many libraries are not anymore the quiet places that they used to be. They are filled with noise from escalators, from all kinds of electric and automatic dispensers of coffee and snacks, from refridgerators, from many people talking in the associated lunchroom and/or dining rooms, and of course from people, including children, who do not know how to behave in a library, i.e quietly.

DarkSteven -> RE: A question for the conservatives. Libraries? (8/15/2010 8:16:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot I could be wrong, DS. But here in Mass, we have a balanced budget requirement. Oops. I didn't know that! In that case, your comment makes sense.

joether -> RE: A question for the conservatives. Libraries? (8/15/2010 9:47:17 AM)
It depends....WHERE....in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, one is, regarding libraries. In my part of the state, libraries, like all things, had to take a decrease in funds availible to it. We can thank the Bush Administration for screwing around with the economy before he left office in his last year. How many states have deficits, and have had to make cut backs? 'Maybemaybenot', would have you believe, that only in democratic states, and the 'democratic of democratic states', the cuts are the worst. Not really true nor factual. While I have my bias, that states consevatives are about as educated as bread boxes on most subjects, I dont think this is a 'conservative' vs. 'liberal' arguement. Both sides can make, equally valid arguements for why they are 'for' or 'against' things in a library. In the end, as brokedickdog put it, if it comes to a library system, or a multi-million, revenue generating arena, officals will go with the arena. Libraries cost money to operate, and often, I find its Republicans who hate costs that give no 'return on investment'. Is that the reason question to this? What sort of investment, do libraries, give, to the individual tax payer? Is it possible to put that return, in a dollar and sense idea? Or is, knowledge worth more then mere pieces of cloth and ink?

juliaoceania -> RE: A question for the conservatives. Libraries? (8/15/2010 9:49:42 AM)
I think conservatives are only for programs and tax bennies that favor them. If it favors someone less well off than they, then they think that they paid for it. If it benefits them or those who are more wealthy, then they like it...

DarkSteven -> RE: A question for the conservatives. Libraries? (8/15/2010 9:56:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether 'Maybemaybenot', would have you believe, that only in democratic states, and the 'democratic of democratic states', the cuts are the worst. Not really true nor factual. I didn't see that in her post. She singled out MA because it's the state she lives in, and it has a unique funding limitation. quote: ORIGINAL: joether Is that the reason question to this? What sort of investment, do libraries, give, to the individual tax payer? Is it possible to put that return, in a dollar and sense idea? Or is, knowledge worth more then mere pieces of cloth and ink? I had just thought that conservative thinking here was at odds with their general viewpoint. But brokedickdawg pointed out a possible exception.

maybemaybenot -> RE: A question for the conservatives. Libraries? (8/15/2010 10:09:39 AM)
Joether: You need not speak for me, nor misconstrue my comments, TYVM. I believe DarkSteven is smart enough to understand what I was saying. Unlike yourself who just wants to spin my words into a mud puddle. As you always try to do, unsucessfully may I add. I was not alluding to Dem. states being the worst. Stop making things up to suit your arguement. I clearly stated " here in Massachusetts " I clearly stated : "I can only conclude from my state legislature that HERE IN MASS it is the liberals who are more prone to take away a system that is designed to help all people strive." Where did I say the cuts are the worst here ? And yes, in your part of the state the libraries took a hit, just like throughout the entire state due to Deval Patrick cutting the budget for libraries. You seem to be agreeing with me there. How in the name of all that is Holy is George Bush in any way responsible for the 2010 Balanced Budget of Massachusetts ? Facts are facts: The budget to libraries was cut significantly. It was Democrats who instituted the cuts. You State : "It depends....WHERE....in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, one is, regarding libraries. In my part of the state, libraries, like all things, had to take a decrease in funds availible to it." I think anyone can figure out that the cuts to the Boston Public Library will not be as significant as the cuts to the Hopkington Library. However, there is only XX of dollars allocated to libraties in the Commonwealth Of Mass. And each town got less money for there libraries. The percentage may vary, but they all got hit. Cheers ! mbmbn

Musicmystery -> RE: A question for the conservatives. Libraries? (8/15/2010 10:39:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven One conservative mantra is that the government should do less or at least not more regarding welfare, and other aid programs for the have-nots. But I have yet to hear a conservative speak out against the library system. Why is that? Is it because the libraries do not feed any appetites that tend to keep people from bettering themselves? (My impression is that systems designed to maintain the status quo are frowned upon by conservatives, but systems designed to permit people to strive are not.) Not precisely true. Sarah Palin of course wanted to ban books she'd didn't like, and that's hardly new in America. And Libertarians (which has nothing to do with conservatism, but since conservatives have embraced it, adding this here) have long argued that libraries interfere with the free market system, crowding out book stores (despite evidence that's not the case other than theoretically). But it's more because it's not hot-button issue enough to get people to the polls.

pahunkboy -> RE: A question for the conservatives. Libraries? (8/15/2010 10:53:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule Conservatives have often been proponents of education. Employers need educated people. Libraries are a community effort at population improvement. Unfortunately many libraries are not anymore the quiet places that they used to be. They are filled with noise from escalators, from all kinds of electric and automatic dispensers of coffee and snacks, from refridgerators, from many people talking in the associated lunchroom and/or dining rooms, and of course from people, including children, who do not know how to behave in a library, i.e quietly. We do not need libraries any more. When I go in recent years- they point me to the Internet. Which I can do at home- with no filters. Ours our noisy- the books are from the 70s- 80s, and the stuff in them is outdated. the girls at the desk inspect every book you check out- like it they are deciding if you should be allowed to read it- or why does that guy want to know that. If you ask for a certain title or type of book- you get a generic- well there is the book shelf. Even the card catalog which was a mystery as a kid is still a mystery because nothing is properly entered into the system. maybe some of the college libraries are relevent. But the town library- is no longer useful- to me. In the 80s one could put in an information request- you cite the places you looked for your answer- and they send out the inquiry- and at some point they ge back to you. Today it is just some old bitties who talk about every patron that leaves- who is that- why did they do this or that- and so forth.

thishereboi -> RE: A question for the conservatives. Libraries? (8/15/2010 10:56:34 AM)
I was wondering how long it would take someone to blame it on Bush. You are consistent if nothing else. Oh and if you are going to make snarky jabs at the intelligence level of conservatives, you should spell check your post before hitting the submit button. "While I have my bias, that states consevatives are about as educated as bread boxes on most subjects, I dont think this is a 'conservative' vs. 'liberal' arguement."

thishereboi -> RE: A question for the conservatives. Libraries? (8/15/2010 10:58:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I think conservatives are only for programs and tax bennies that favor them. If it favors someone less well off than they, then they think that they paid for it. If it benefits them or those who are more wealthy, then they like it... I think some conservatives might feel that way and some liberals might feel that way. To say that all people in either group feel the same way about everything is just plain stupid.

thornhappy -> RE: A question for the conservatives. Libraries? (8/15/2010 2:06:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy We do not need libraries any more. When I go in recent years- they point me to the Internet. Which I can do at home- with no filters. Ours our noisy- the books are from the 70s- 80s, and the stuff in them is outdated. the girls at the desk inspect every book you check out- like it they are deciding if you should be allowed to read it- or why does that guy want to know that. If you ask for a certain title or type of book- you get a generic- well there is the book shelf. Even the card catalog which was a mystery as a kid is still a mystery because nothing is properly entered into the system. maybe some of the college libraries are relevent. But the town library- is no longer useful- to me. In the 80s one could put in an information request- you cite the places you looked for your answer- and they send out the inquiry- and at some point they ge back to you. Today it is just some old bitties who talk about every patron that leaves- who is that- why did they do this or that- and so forth. They inspect books to check for damage before they're checked out. Would you like to be responsible for damage you didn't commit? Where can you read library books for free online? They may be pointing you to the computerized card catalog. I can do searches there and check for books all over the library system. Stuff I can't find in Montgomery County may be available from interlibrary loan. For science stuff I prefer the local university since they have a much larger inventory. You might be able to volunteer and help with re-shelving!

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