RE: Sell me on Islam (Full Version)

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MrRodgers -> RE: Sell me on Islam (8/18/2010 9:48:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

I would hardly compare a music video with stoning someone to death.

What ?




MissAsylum -> RE: Sell me on Islam (8/18/2010 10:03:42 AM)

As a former owner- i never treated my submissive as complete property-i valued his opinion. before 9/11 when i was still living in England, my father, who was still active in the military, took my family where ever he went. i've been to Saudi Arabia and Iraq/Afganistan areas. two VASTLY different areas in terms of the belief systems. in S.A., no big deal for some English people to walk by-trendy clothes and all. however, while in the Iraq/Afganistan areas, we often got the look of death. my mum would hild my father's hand and she once got verbally attacked for it. so i think its really a regional or how they were raised like what was mentioned before. same as the US. before i was with my current bf, i had dated a member of the Nation of Islam. nothing but pure chaos from the start. he broke it off because i had no desire to submit, and my father is caucasian. but i know muslims here that have met my father when he came here to visit and didnt think twice about it.




Musicmystery -> RE: Sell me on Islam (8/18/2010 10:04:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

I would hardly compare a music video with stoning someone to death.

What ?


Depends on the music video. Some are pretty painful.




juliaoceania -> RE: Sell me on Islam (8/18/2010 2:25:53 PM)

fast reply

I know a young lady whose family are Persian and she is second generation. She does not wear the Hijab, although some of her friends do. Since she is an anthropologist I have talked with her about some of the debates amongst young Muslims in this country. They debate the importance of modesty garments, the ladies often wear them as a sign of their submission to Allah, not to men. They often will break certain rules to flirt with each other, and they are definitely struggling with reconciling tradition and becoming more Westernized.

This young woman is doing research in Iran, on a topic I will not cover here. She has told me that she is shocked by the amount of skin girls will show there, like wearing bikini style tops with shorts, transparent clothes, etc etc etc... it is a form of rebellion because they are forced to wear veil. The youth of Iran are rebelling in many ways. She thinks this is amusing because her own father is very conservative by American standards, and he thinks he is lenient by Iranian standards.... but he isn't.

We tend to see things through the perspective of a media lens, and we tend to believe everything we see and hear from the media... lots of things we think we know, we really don't know at all... the world is not a static place, but a place of dynamic change. And the people that live in this dynamic system will either change or perish.





pahunkboy -> RE: Sell me on Islam (8/18/2010 2:31:24 PM)

Extremes of any type are not good.

Watch for my new music video on that same title.   (JK)




Elisabella -> RE: Sell me on Islam (8/18/2010 6:02:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

So the concept of stoning people to death for infidelity or hanging 16 yr. old girls for violating their chastity and other very physically violent and brutal forms of violence against women in particular, husbands beating their wives everyday, can and does create in my view...an uncivilized society.

This is practiced by the power of only men in a theocratic govt. that they control. These leaders are of course...all piously innocent and are all living in accordance with Sharia law...ya think ?



I agree, those things you listed are totally uncivilized in my view. At least for any modern definition of the word civilization. IMO what you're condemning there is not Islam, but fundamentalist Islamic theocracy and more primitive traditions of Islam like female circumcision.

I think only focusing on the ugly and brutal things in a culture doesn't give a full picture of it, it would be like looking at lynchings and slavery and imperialism and corrupt politicians and corporate misconduct and then declaring yourself a "westernophobe" because like, that culture is so messed up.




StrangerThan -> RE: Sell me on Islam (8/18/2010 6:35:57 PM)

I don't have any feel good stories. I don't know enough about the religion to sell anyone on it, and if I did, I wouldn't try. When it comes to religious and spiritual things, either you come to them or not. What I do have is a bunch of disjointed impressions and memories.

I saw a man beheaded. He was, I think, an enemy of the state, not so much islam. But, it was in a public viewing context. Take it for what its worth.

Imagine a bus in Tunisia. Girl on one side in a skirt short enough to be scandalous in the US, liking the fact that I liked her legs. Woman on the opposite side clothed head to toe in black garb. Not even sure a woman is in there really.

I was warned in one country that speaking to a woman, or looking at her was against the law.

The only place I've ever been robbed at gunpoint was in a muslim country. Two notes. There were three of us and the police did the robbing. We were in a cab heading for the American Embassy. Our cab driver pulled into an alley way. 2 police type cars pulled in behind, ordered us out. Cabby disappeared and during the dialog that followed, I learned all Americans were rich and all were filth.

I didn't argue. Aside from the fact that in his eyes, I probably was rich, he had some sort of little machine gun looking thing.

I sat next to a man in another alley while he poured gold bars from melted jewelry. Around us lay folk that could have come from the Arabian nights. Handless, footless, beggars of all types. No one molested the man with the gold bars.

I had a friend who felt it his destiny to leave his sperm everywhere we went. Since he was exceedingly, umm, non-handsome, he usually ended up purchasing the hole in which he left it.  I can't remember which country, but he found some prostitutes. My other friend and I were the safe guards of his possessions on these trips. The area was walled in, fairly large courtyard type scene. The ladies had these little outhouse looking structures with beaded entrance ways. My friend waited in a line of about 30 men for his time. None of them cared that he was an infidel or American. Apparently the need for strange, literally, trumps such things.

My favorite places were the open air markets. Spices piled high, scents and noises enough to overwhelm your senses and most of them good. Barter, bargaining, no one pissed at anyone because of who they were.

For the most part, people are people. Different beliefs, different ways of doing things, but if you sit down and talk to them, for the most part, you'll get along.  I did however, decline the most recent invitation a few weeks ago to travel to a muslim country. Apparently, they would have come into a compound to learn what was to be taught, and I could not leave it,.

Didn't sound like much fun, honestly.

There's more, most of it jumbled and full of good, strange, and some bad. Mostly, I take people at face value. I find that easier to do with muslims in the US or some other, more developed country. That might sound like a disrespectful way of saying it but I also saw a lot of abject poverty sitting right beside men so wealthy they bought 24 carat coverlets for their wives to wear over their dresses.

Shrug. Selling you on islam is no different than selling you on any religion. What you get is going to depend on where you are.




Muslim is not a term where synonymous conditions exist everywhere. In other words, the muslim beliefs in one country cannot be taken as a stamp by which others elsewhere live.




TheHeretic -> RE: Sell me on Islam (8/18/2010 7:10:43 PM)

I'm not sure how helpful I can be here, Rapto, but I'll have a crack at it anyway. I looked at it for myself once, long ago, and quickly discovered that besides the whole "submit or be killed" aspect, dogs are prohibited as pets. The first just doesn't fit with my core beliefs, and the second was a dealbreaker. If those aren't problems for you, there is much to sell.

Imagine the sense of community, of being part of a great whole, when believers gather, or step away from their work at the appointed times, to kneel and prostrate themselves before God 5 times a day. It truly is the religion of peace, since anybody who doesn't accept the regimen gets "removed" from the community. I have some personal, philosophical problems with the idea that humans can succeed as a species of sheep, but plenty of good people do think that's the way to go.

Islam isn't just a religion, it's a complete civilization in a box. You have your relationship with God, social obligations, grocery list, government, and justice system right there. Granted, it's pretty fucking medieval, but some people like that.

You can do the read on the Old Testament and find all sorts of things that easily compare to the brutal and barbaric bits of the Koran. The big difference of course is that Christians operate off a second book in the series that waived all the old crap.

Hey! Maybe that's what needs to happen! Check with T-REXVH and see if he'll set you up as the central character in Koran II. Tell 'em to chill the fuck out. Say you are the 12th Imam. They are waiting for you.





juliaoceania -> RE: Sell me on Islam (8/18/2010 7:17:50 PM)

quote:

That might sound like a disrespectful way of saying it but I also saw a lot of abject poverty sitting right beside men so wealthy they bought 24 carat coverlets for their wives to wear over their dresses.


Which is a large part of the anger they feel towards us... we are the ones that enriched the few to control the many... not just the US, but the West in general




StrangerThan -> RE: Sell me on Islam (8/18/2010 7:20:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

That might sound like a disrespectful way of saying it but I also saw a lot of abject poverty sitting right beside men so wealthy they bought 24 carat coverlets for their wives to wear over their dresses.


Which is a large part of the anger they feel towards us... we are the ones that enriched the few to control the many... not just the US, but the West in general


The few already controlled the many julia. They just weren't as rich.




marshalp -> RE: Sell me on Islam (8/19/2010 2:00:17 AM)

Hardly anyone here understands the religion... yet there is so much opposition & antagonism for it. True, people fear what they do not understand.


@ raptor, someone in the forum said, selling you Islam is like selling you any religion. It's the same bullshit. OK, i might be able to help. I am an atheist but i have family who are Muslims. My understanding of Islam might not be perfect, but i shall try to answer any of your specific charges


quote:

But the way they treat their own people, mainly the women, makes me think of their societies (most of the ones under theocratic rule at least) as little more than barbaric.

At it's time Islam was the only religion which afforded women the most respect in the society. They had freedom & influence in education, religion, monetary decisions. She was eligible for property ownership & inheritance. Marriage was a contract in which her willingness was essential, she had the right to divorce & would receive personal & child support. OK, it is a piety that these rights eroded over time & many (most) Islamic countries today do not afford women these rights.


quote:

I know it's not the case in some of the countries in the middle east, like Dubai (which has its own issues of being an infrastructure based on slave labor).

Dubai... well it's not about Islam here... it's all capitalism & power


quote:

The calls to murder anyone who defiles the name of their prophet sickens me (even a woman who names a teddy bear Muhammad deserves to die?). The fact that "honor killings" are an accepted practice bugs the fuck out of me.

Muslims are encouraged to spread the word of god (prophet).  They believe that those who dishonor god (or prophet) will earn god's wrath (like soo many other religions). But, they are explicitly forbid to kill an innocent or unarmed person. Koran specifies... "killing one person is like killing the whole humanity". Again, this depends on what & how you interpret... there are many things in religious books which could be twisted to what you want them to mean. Give me the Bible, Torah, Gita... any other book & i can justify anything i want to do. Just in Islam the terrorists have latched on these few lines in the book & use them to spread terror.


quote:

Women being treated as property once they're married makes me shake my head. I know it's not the case with all and my views may be slanted, but it seems to be the case with most according to what I've seen in the media at least.

Women have (or according to Koran are supposed to have) equal (or more) rights then the man in marriage. Including divorce, alimony (refer above).


Let's talk about other things,

Hijab (burqua). Koran specifies the women (AND me n) must be dressed & behave modestly. Women are advised to "cover their private parts & the adornments that which ordinarily appears thereof and to draw their covers over their chests and not to display their adornment except to their husbands.  I don't think this is such a radical advice to cover boobs & pussies, right??? Oh & Koran says nothing about covering face, head or anything like that...

I totally agree that hardly any Islamic cultures practices the exclusively good form of Islam... but as i said you can take what you want from the book. Also many times the regional culture plays a bigger influence then religion (i.e. honor killings, Koran says nothing about it). To be honest Islam is in a bad state today.

On the flip side (especially about women). the biggest Islamic countries, Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh... all three had have women heads of state much before most of the western countries. That should account to something regarding the treatment of women in Islam [:D]


p.s. most of the statements here are easily available from wikipedia or a simple google search. 




Aneirin -> RE: Sell me on Islam (8/19/2010 5:05:59 AM)

You speak a lot of truth of the matter and by many accounts Islam is not what it once was, but there are movements within Islam to make the faith come more into line with the present time.




DomYngBlk -> RE: Sell me on Islam (8/19/2010 6:27:16 AM)

I think that most people confuse Islam with the Arab Culture. They are two distinct things. Islam in Arabia is much different than Islam in Bosnia or Islam in Malaysia. It isn't once size fits all. As with all other religions the local culture has a large effect on how it is experienced. Christianity in Italy and Christianity in US are two very different things as well..........If we would separate the culture from the Religion we'd be much better off in our understanding.




maybemaybenot -> RE: Sell me on Islam (8/19/2010 7:12:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

I think that most people confuse Islam with the Arab Culture. They are two distinct things. Islam in Arabia is much different than Islam in Bosnia or Islam in Malaysia. It isn't once size fits all. As with all other religions the local culture has a large effect on how it is experienced. Christianity in Italy and Christianity in US are two very different things as well..........If we would separate the culture from the Religion we'd be much better off in our understanding.


1000% agreed.

I think most people equate Islam with the Middle East and that is their perception of the " religion".
                                               mbmbn




Elisabella -> RE: Sell me on Islam (8/19/2010 4:25:22 PM)

Islam has spread across the world but it still has strong roots in the Middle East. Just as an example - the Koran only exists in Arabic. The book in any other language is called "a translation of the Holy Koran" or something like that.




literarylady -> RE: Sell me on Islam (8/19/2010 5:05:54 PM)

Oh, for Chrissake, Raptor, I'll take your opinion and raise you a burqua. All religions are CRAZY, but Islam is crazier than most. People lie to you and preach "religious tolerance." I'm not afraid to tell you the truth. Some crazy Christers killed abortion doctors--10 doctors or under. How many people did crazy Muslims kill? I don't know, but it is a good many more than 10. By the way, did I mention all religions are crazy about suppressing women?




literarylady -> RE: Sell me on Islam (8/19/2010 5:28:51 PM)

Hey, Raptor, I love your ass, btw.

I feel like, if we were taken over by burqua-supremists, you might take my side.

You be as nasty as you wanna', Pal.




juliaoceania -> RE: Sell me on Islam (8/19/2010 5:45:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Islam has spread across the world but it still has strong roots in the Middle East. Just as an example - the Koran only exists in Arabic. The book in any other language is called "a translation of the Holy Koran" or something like that.



Just like all copies of the bible that are not in Hebrew or Latin are considered "translations"... because they are




literarylady -> RE: Sell me on Islam (8/19/2010 5:51:22 PM)

Pffft! Eveyththing religious in predicated on someone believing that to be true. JuliaOceanna, you explain, but few of the religious listen. I like you, even if you believe in religlion.




Elisabella -> RE: Sell me on Islam (8/19/2010 5:58:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Islam has spread across the world but it still has strong roots in the Middle East. Just as an example - the Koran only exists in Arabic. The book in any other language is called "a translation of the Holy Koran" or something like that.



Just like all copies of the bible that are not in Hebrew or Latin are considered "translations"... because they are


Yeah I really don't get why Muslims and Christians can't get along. Their religions have so much in common.

Here's a site trying to prove the mystical numerological truth of the Koran http://www.submission.org/miracle/gematrical.html

And here's a site that bashes the Koran for being scientifically impossible http://www.answer-islam.org/Smoke.html

I'd like to take the fundamentalists of both groups and lock them up in Alcatraz together for eternity. I bet after awhile they'd start getting along.




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