A slaves Masculinity. (Full Version)

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MstrTiger -> A slaves Masculinity. (4/20/2006 8:34:07 PM)


Do you think a male slave sacrifices part of what it is to be masculine when he submits and allows himself to be collared and owned?



SweetDommes -> RE: A slaves Masculinity. (4/20/2006 8:56:19 PM)

Absolutely not ... as far as I'm concerned, a man who not only knows what he wants but is willing to admit it and go for what he wants is as manly as it gets - no matter where his orientation lies on the D/s scale.



Real0ne -> RE: A slaves Masculinity. (4/20/2006 9:36:51 PM)

no but the libido can take a hit LOL



slaveladyj -> RE: A slaves Masculinity. (4/21/2006 4:37:22 AM)

No. I think if a man can be that opened with himself and others, he is showing just how strong he can be.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: A slaves Masculinity. (4/21/2006 6:22:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrTiger
Do you think a male slave sacrifices part of what it is to be masculine when he submits and allows himself to be collared and owned?

Nope, I treasure it.



Jasmyn -> RE: A slaves Masculinity. (4/21/2006 7:34:31 AM)

In A Defense of Masochism Anita Phillips writes "men involved in masochism may symbolically endanger their masculinity in order to test and fulfill themselves as men".  In some ways I think this is true and would probably say the same of women stepping outside traditional gender constructs may be symbolically or purposely endangering their femininity in order to test and fulfill themselves as women.  Those things not generally afforded under gender constructs, like vulnerability in men and hegemony in women can be readily entertained or effectively experienced when he/she steps outside that square. 
 
Keeping in mind 'man' & 'woman' are not the same as 'masculinity' & 'femininity', I believe the sub male taking on a collar and ownership does in ways sacrifice parts of masculinity by shedding those gender constructs generally attributed to ideals of male hegemony. 
 
Would it then transfer that doing so scarifices parts of what it is to be 'masculine'?  Hmm ... that would depend entirely on perceptions and schemas of what it means 'to be masculine' in any given individual's eyes.   When I'm running my hands over an obviously masculine body, that fact he could be on his knees or wearing my collar, wouldn't for me detract from the maleness of him.
 
Thanks for the question MstrTiger



littleone35 -> RE: A slaves Masculinity. (4/21/2006 7:50:43 AM)

I don't think so it is just a way they feel fufilled just like a female sub.  They should be free to be what the really are and not feel like less of a man because of it.

Matt's littleone



Lashra -> RE: A slaves Masculinity. (4/21/2006 8:46:31 AM)

Nope it makes him even more of a man because he is not afraid to be who he truly is. I have found too many males deny or try to hide that they have submissive feelings. After awhile it does seem to make them angry, sad and feeling totally unfulfilled.

Anyone who thinks a male sub is weak has never truly known one, they are some of the strongest, intelligent sexiest men I've ever known.

~Lashra



LadyMorgynn -> RE: A slaves Masculinity. (4/21/2006 8:57:37 AM)

AMEN to that!
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lashra
Nope it makes him even more of a man because he is not afraid to be who he truly is. I have found too many males deny or try to hide that they have submissive feelings. After awhile it does seem to make them angry, sad and feeling totally unfulfilled.

Anyone who thinks a male sub is weak has never truly known one, they are some of the strongest, intelligent sexiest men I've ever known.

~Lashra



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: A slaves Masculinity. (4/21/2006 8:59:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lashra
Anyone who thinks a male sub is weak has never truly known one, they are some of the strongest, intelligent sexiest men I've ever known.

~Lashra

There are weak male subs just like there are a weak anyone's- female subs, doms, vanillas, etc.  Submitting in a relationship doesn't necessarily signal strength, nor does one's masculinity equal strength.



Lashra -> RE: A slaves Masculinity. (4/21/2006 10:36:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lashra
Anyone who thinks a male sub is weak has never truly known one, they are some of the strongest, intelligent sexiest men I've ever known.

~Lashra

There are weak male subs just like there are a weak anyone's- female subs, doms, vanillas, etc.  Submitting in a relationship doesn't necessarily signal strength, nor does one's masculinity equal strength.

No not all males are strong some are weak, what I was refering to was their strength in not being afraid to be submissive. As most of us know male subs tend to have a stigmata attached to them for whatever reason. To me to be open about who they are shows an inner strength.
Strength is in the eye of the beholder, what you might consider strong I may not. Everyone has their own definition.

~Lashra



MstrTiger -> RE: A slaves Masculinity. (4/22/2006 5:06:40 PM)


Thanks for your responses everyone, I asked all the slaves in my yahoo slave group the same question in the form of a poll though it did not produce any conclusive results as such though I was surprised to see that 14% of the slaves that answered thought that being collared and owned makes them feel more affirmed in there masculinity than they did.



BitaTruble -> RE: A slaves Masculinity. (4/22/2006 6:00:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrTiger


Do you think a male slave sacrifices part of what it is to be masculine when he submits and allows himself to be collared and owned?


I think this would be an excellent question to put in the "Ask a Master forum" to see if the answers are comparable.

Celeste



SirandMistress -> RE: A slaves Masculinity. (4/22/2006 6:08:31 PM)

I feel that no it does not take away the subs masculinity if anything it adds to it b/c he is able to submit and feel comfortable in his role. 

Mistress Celest



Clothespingirl -> RE: A slaves Masculinity. (4/22/2006 9:09:28 PM)

The male subs that I've happened to meet so far have been tough, tough, guys.  (Yes, I know not all are like that.)  They've really opened my eyes to a lot of things, like the fact that I'm only a beginner masochist <grin>.  And they seem quite confident and happy getting what they want, which is great.

I wouldn't recommend that anybody sneer at a man because he's a sub.  Some of those guys can take major pain, I bet they're hell in a fight!



MistWalker -> RE: A slaves Masculinity. (4/22/2006 9:23:52 PM)

i personely think it diminishes my masculinity in no way,  well n o less then i allow it to mentaly. i am comfortable in what i do, and in doing that i am asked to do.. but i have always been that way even outside of the lifestyle.. live in the deep south and walk on the street with your nails painted purple, hair dyed red.. see how many looks ya get. and ive never let things like others opinions bother me save those that Decidely matter to me like Mistreses..  i am how i am, and thats the end of that weither some one else thinks it makes me weaker in some respect. there welcome to think so..

clothespins coment kinda makes me smile cause it reminds me of my first Mistress and the first time we did a S/m  scene. i was extremely unexperenced in the Life at that point. yet i did know the things i would like,and told her so before hand.. all the same by the end of the scene all there were suprised with the amont i had taken with not so much as a ouch.. Her, her HUsband, also DOm, and a mutial friend slave.. who aparently was drooling over the whole scene.. especlay when the knives came out.  anyway. nope dont feel submitting , being under a collar in any way makes me less then i am without it.



slavejali -> RE: A slaves Masculinity. (4/23/2006 7:04:30 AM)

i guess to get a good answer to this topic, someone would have to write about the qualities of *masculinity* , what is it to be *masculine*? Without a reference, so many people could have different ideas and it is hard to tell what exactly anyone is saying, when they say,  they are or are not sacrificing their masculinity by being a male submissive.

So far from the responses, Ive gathered that to be masculine is to be able to

1. take a lot of pain,(i think its a well known fact women can endure more pain than men btw).
2. To know what you want, admit it and go after it (women do that too, so I dont see that as specifically masculine).
3. To be open with himself and others ..I dont see that as a defining factor of masculinity.
4. Being not afraid of who he is...thats not a trait specific to masculinity.

So are masculinity and femininity the same? If not, what makes a man masculine? What is masculinity? The answer to that would make the responses to this topic much clearer.



TeeGO -> RE: A slaves Masculinity. (4/23/2006 7:39:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrTiger
Do you think a male slave sacrifices part of what it is to be masculine when he submits and allows himself to be collared and owned?


Yes, I most definitely think so. He doesn't lose any, but indeed does sacrifices some of it.

I can assure there are not many people "man" enough or foolish enough to walk up to me on the street and question my masculinity. But at the same time if I'm on the street with my Domme and she scolds me for something and I am forced to reply "Yes Ma'am." That would be humiliating to me and a crushing blow to my masculinity.

Truth be told, that is part of my kinky desire. Why you might ask?

I have no idea, but I know I like it. All part of the way I'm wired.



BitaTruble -> RE: A slaves Masculinity. (4/23/2006 9:32:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrTiger


Do you think a male slave sacrifices part of what it is to be masculine when he submits and allows himself to be collared and owned?


I think a lot of them do and it's exactly what they want. Many male slaves want to be objectified, sissified and shed their masculine ego and that should be acknowledged. What should also be acknowledged is that there's nothing wrong with it. I see questions like this and wonder why masculinity or femininity seems to be such a defining factor in what we do.

There has always been an unspoken hierarchy in BDSM though it is most often denied but I've seen it's existence in every r/t group of which I've been a part for as long as I've been steeping in the vats of BDSM. I got into BDSM just as het couples starting coming into what had once been reserved for mostly gay leather folk -  at least who were out and about. Once het hit the scene, BDSM as a subculture changed dramatically and the waves of het MaleDom/femsub brought with it society's 1950 views. It was as if BDSM was a throwback to what was lost during the 60's and 70's with the feminist movement, so folks gravitated towards a sort of lifestyle that spoke to a different pace in a different time and what better than MaleDom/femsub to make that happen? Couple that with some kinky spanking and you've got a gold mine if such could have been marketed. I read somewhere that 50 % of American's engaged in bedroom spanking.. :;gawds I wish I could remember where I read that so I could provide the link, but I promise to research it and see if I can find it again::

Male Dom
Fem sub
Fem Dom
male sub

Is it right? Probably not, but is sure as hell seems to be real. Until everyone that's old like me dies out and the younger, more open minded take over the reigns, it will probably remain an unspoken rule of thumb denied by the masses though secretly agreed with by many. Can I prove any of this? Nope, can't. It's based completely on personal observation over many years. I acknowledge up front that the experiences of others many vary widely, but it won't change my own opinion to hear it. I've seen it happen to often, mostly in the form of male submissive getting shunned by the vast majority at groups, events and munches and only those lucky few who are actually owned are treated with respect and that's usually dependent upon how much respect their owners garner. Bottom line, it doesn't even take being collared.. just being a man and admitting to be submissive is more than enough to have many view you as less than masculine.

Celeste



luckyslaveboync -> RE: A slaves Masculinity. (4/23/2006 11:41:16 AM)

It all depends on definitions. What does one see as the defining characteristic of "masculinity". If it is strength, lucky thinks it is a lot more challenging to be a self-confident sub. It may well require such "masculine" qualities as self-discipline, being the provider in support of the relationship, or not caring what others think in order to do what is right in terms of happy relationships. On the other hand, if "maculinity" is self-indulgence as opposed to self-sacrifice, or if it is  acting like a perpetual fraternity boy, then obviously being a sub is not masculine in that so-called macho sense. That is the crux, really: is one's notion of masculinity tied to media-hyped macho stereotypes, or is it tied to strengths associated with being able to give devotion and all that entails?



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