Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cuts for the rich (Full Version)

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Brain -> Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cuts for the rich (8/21/2010 7:16:59 PM)

Clinton raised taxes on the top 1.2% of the rich and the government income went up and the economy expanded for 10 years. He also cut government payroll by 373,000.

Reagan initially cut taxes, and then raised them. But the tax rates still ended up lower than before. Reagan expanded the government payroll by 60,000 jobs. He also embarked on an expensive expansion of government and Defense programs to keep ahead of Russian expansion.

Result? Government income dropped and expenditures rose. The national debt soared from $700 billion to $3 trillion. It was under Reagan that the USA first changed from being the world's largest creditor into the world's largest debtor.

Gee, thanks, Ronnie.

Bush outdid Reagan. He cut taxes to the lowest level in the past 3 generations. He expanded the government and launched 2 expensive wars.

Result? A drastic drop in government income and a huge rise in national debt.

Reagan and Bush both have proven the Laffer Curve wrong.

The tax cuts must die and taxes on the rich must rise.


Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cuts for the rich

A new CNN Poll released today shows that 69 percent of Americans want to let the Bush/Republican tax cuts for the rich expire.


A major campaign issue for Republicans as we head into this Novembers election are the Bush/Republican Tax cuts that are set to expire this coming January.

Republicans argue that while the current economy is still in a recovery mode after the economic policies put in place by them, congress needs to extend the tax cuts that were in acted in 2001 and 2003, not let them expire.

They argue that the tax cuts for the rich, if extended, will help to create jobs, but data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) proves them wrong.

The nonpartisan website PolitiFact did some fact checking after they heard Sen. Sherrod Brown talking about the number of jobs created by Bush vs. Clinton while appearing on MSNBC last month.

http://www.examiner.com/clark-county-elections-2010-in-las-vegas/poll-majority-of-americans-want-to-end-bush-tax-cuts-for-the-rich

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV)


[image]local://upfiles/392475/6BC36F3C50854116BC8FDBB5560416A3.jpg[/image]




Kirata -> RE: Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cuts for the rich (8/21/2010 8:41:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

A new CNN Poll released today shows that 69 percent of Americans want to let the Bush/Republican tax cuts for the rich expire.


Question:
As you may know, the tax cuts passed into law when George W. Bush was president are set to expire this year. Unless a new bill is passed, federal income tax rates will rise to the level they were at when those cuts were enacted. Which of the following statements comes closest to your view?

Responses:
31% - Those tax cuts should continue for all Americans regardless of how much money they make
51% - Those tax cuts should continue for families that make less than 250 thousand dollars a year, but taxes should rise to the previous level for families who make more than that amount
18% - Taxes should rise to the previous level for all Americans regardless of how much money they make


It seems to me that a less Bush-bashing slant would acknowledge that the Bush tax cuts weren't just for the rich, and that only 18% of the people polled want to see them all allowed to expire. A total of 82% do NOT want that, among whom 62% want them to continue at least for people making less than 250 thousand a year, and 38% don't want them to expire AT ALL.

K.





Hippiekinkster -> RE: Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cuts for the rich (8/22/2010 12:26:25 AM)

So 51% of people want tax cuts to expire for those making $250K+, and 18% of people want tax cuts to expire for those making $250K+, AND ALL OTHERS.

Therefore 69% of Americans want taxes to rise back to pre-cut levels for those making $250K+ I'd call that a sizable majority.

Nice attempt on spinning, though.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cuts for the rich (8/22/2010 12:33:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

So 51% of people want tax cuts to expire for those making $250K+, and 18% of people want tax cuts to expire for those making $250K+, AND ALL OTHERS.

Therefore 69% of Americans want taxes to rise back to pre-cut levels for those making $250K+ I'd call that a sizable majority.

Nice attempt on spinning, though.


Feeble attempt at English. The responses are very clearly mutually exclusive, not additive.




rulemylife -> RE: Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cuts for the rich (8/22/2010 12:40:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


It seems to me that a less Bush-bashing slant would acknowledge that the Bush tax cuts weren't just for the rich
...



Of course they were for the wealthy.

I could pull up link after link to demonstrate that, but it has been shown so many times it's not really worth the effort to try to convince someone who knows the facts but prefers to pretend otherwise.




Kirata -> RE: Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cuts for the rich (8/22/2010 1:30:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

It seems to me that a less Bush-bashing slant would acknowledge that the Bush tax cuts weren't just for the rich


Of course they were for the wealthy.

I could pull up link after link to demonstrate that, but it has been shown so many times it's not really worth the effort to try to convince someone who knows the facts but prefers to pretend otherwise.

The Bush tax cuts were across the board. And by far the greatest cut was for taxpayers in the lowest tax bracket, who saw their rate reduced by a whopping one-third.

Between 2001 and 2003, the Bush administration instituted a federal tax cut for all taxpayers. Among other changes, the lowest income tax rate was lowered from 15% to 10%, the 27% rate went to 25%, the 30% rate went to 28%, the 35% rate went to 33%, and the top marginal tax rate went from 39.6% to 35%. In addition, the child tax credit went from $500 to $1000, and the "marriage penalty" was reduced. ~Wikipedia

K.






TheRaptorJesus -> RE: Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cuts for the rich (8/22/2010 1:38:47 AM)

So the lowest and the top dropped by almost the exact same percentage?

Seems like the middle class was getting fucked on that deal, eh?




Kirata -> RE: Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cuts for the rich (8/22/2010 1:42:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheRaptorJesus

So the lowest and the top dropped by almost the exact same percentage?

Wanna check your math on that one? [:D]

K.




TheRaptorJesus -> RE: Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cuts for the rich (8/22/2010 1:47:01 AM)

4.4% and 5% are almost the same, aren't they, sugar?

Unless I'm misreading which numbers went where, your post indicates that one dropped by 4.4 percentage points and the other by 5.




rulemylife -> RE: Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cuts for the rich (8/22/2010 1:50:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

The Bush tax cuts were across the board. And by far the greatest cut was for taxpayers in the lowest tax bracket, who saw their rate reduced by a whopping one-third.

Between 2001 and 2003, the Bush administration instituted a federal tax cut for all taxpayers. Among other changes, the lowest income tax rate was lowered from 15% to 10%, the 27% rate went to 25%, the 30% rate went to 28%, the 35% rate went to 33%, and the top marginal tax rate went from 39.6% to 35%. In addition, the child tax credit went from $500 to $1000, and the "marriage penalty" was reduced. ~Wikipedia



Then we have the paragraphs immediately following that from your link:


Some policy analysts and non-profit groups such as OMBWatch, Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, and the Tax Policy Center have attributed some of the rise in income inequality to the Bush administration's tax policy. In February 2007, President Bush addressed the rise of inequality for the first time, saying "The reason is clear: We have an economy that increasingly rewards education and skills because of that education".

However, prominent social scientists, such as economist Paul Krugman and political scientist Larry Bartels, have pointed out that education fails to explain the rising gap between the top 1% and the bottom 99%, which has been the site of most increases in inequality. They point out that if education were to blame, a larger group would be pulling ahead of the rest of the population, and that wages of highly educated earners have fallen far behind those of the very rich.

Furthermore, they point out that the U.S. is unique among developed countries in seeing such a sharp rise in inequality, while the composition of its economy and labor force is not - if education were to blame, one would expect the same trend across all post-industrial nations. Bartels has asserted that the skill base explanation is partially used as it is more "comforting" to blame impersonal forces, rather than policies.

The tax cuts have been largely opposed by American economists, including the Bush administration's own Economic Advisement Council. In 2003, 450 economists, including ten Nobel Prize laureate, signed the Economists' statement opposing the Bush tax cuts, sent to President Bush stating that "these tax cuts will worsen the long-term budget outlook... will reduce the capacity of the government to finance Social Security and Medicare benefits as well as investments in schools, health, infrastructure, and basic research... [and] generate further inequalities in after-tax income."

The Bush administration has claimed, based on the concept of the Laffer Curve
, that the tax cuts actually paid for the themselves by generating enough extra revenue from additional economic growth to offset the lower taxation rates. However, income tax revenues in dollar terms did not regain their FY 2000 peak until 2006. Through the end of 2008, total federal tax revenues relative to GDP have yet to regain their 2000 peak.


In contrast to the claims made by Bush, Cheney, and Republican presidential primary candidates such as Rudy Giuliani
, there is a broad consensus among even conservative economists (including current and former top economists of the Bush Administration such as Greg Mankiw) that the tax cuts have had a substantial net negative impact on revenues (i.e., revenues would have been substantially higher if the tax cuts had not taken place), even taking into account any stimulative effect the tax cuts may have had and any resulting revenue feedback effects.

When asked whether the Bush tax cuts had generated more revenue, Laffer stated that he did not know. However, he did say that the tax cuts were "what was right," because after the September 11 attacks and threats of recession, Bush "needed to stimulate the economy and spend for defense."

In terms of increasing inequality, the effect of Bush's tax cuts on the upper, middle and lower class is contentious. Most economists argue that the cuts have benefited the nation's richest households at the expense of the middle and lower class,
while libertarians and conservatives have claimed tax cuts benefited all taxpayers.   Economists Peter Orszag and William Gale described the Bush tax cuts as reverse government redistribution of wealth, "[shifting] the burden of taxation away from upper-income, capital-owning households and toward the wage-earning households of the lower and middle classes."  Between 2003 and 2004, following the 2003 tax cuts, the share of after-tax income going to the top 1% rose from 12.2% in 2003 to 14.0% in 2004. (This followed the period from 2000 to 2002, where after-tax incomes declined the most for the top 1%.) 




Kirata -> RE: Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cuts for the rich (8/22/2010 1:53:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheRaptorJesus

4.4% and 5% are almost the same, aren't they, sugar?

A drop from 15% to 10% is a 33% cut in the tax rate (5 divided by 15). A drop from 39.6% to 35% is an 11.6% cut (4.6 divided by 39.6).

K.




TheRaptorJesus -> RE: Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cuts for the rich (8/22/2010 1:53:22 AM)

LOL at Selective copypasta.

Man, if you're gonna use a source, use one that can't slaughter the point you were trying to illustrate.




TheRaptorJesus -> RE: Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cuts for the rich (8/22/2010 1:55:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheRaptorJesus

4.4% and 5% are almost the same, aren't they, sugar?

A drop from 15% to 10% is a 33% cut in the tax rate (5 divided by 15). A drop from 39.6% to 35% is an 11.6% cut (4.6 divided by 39.6).

K.



I was talking actual percentage points not proportional percentage points.

K. Thnx.




Kirata -> RE: Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cuts for the rich (8/22/2010 1:59:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Then we have the paragraphs immediately following that which you conveniently avoided posting

Conveniently my ass. Nothing in what you quoted changes the fact that the Bush tax cuts were across the board, and that the biggest cut of all was for taxpayers in the lowest tax bracket.

K.




TheRaptorJesus -> RE: Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cuts for the rich (8/22/2010 2:04:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Then we have the paragraphs immediately following that which you conveniently avoided posting

Conveniently my ass. Nothing in what you quoted changes the fact that the Bush tax cuts were across the board, and that the biggest cut of all was for taxpayers in the lowest tax bracket.

K.



Unless you factor the actual amount of tax money cut rather than percentages.

Then the biggest cut was for the top bracket.




rulemylife -> RE: Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cuts for the rich (8/22/2010 2:06:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Then we have the paragraphs immediately following that which you conveniently a.
voided posting

Conveniently my ass. Nothing in what you quoted changes the fact that the Bush tax cuts were across the board, and that the biggest cut of all was for taxpayers in the lowest tax bracket


K.



Which contradicts what your own link says.




DomKen -> RE: Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cuts for the rich (8/22/2010 2:12:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Then we have the paragraphs immediately following that which you conveniently avoided posting

Conveniently my ass. Nothing in what you quoted changes the fact that the Bush tax cuts were across the board, and that the biggest cut of all was for taxpayers in the lowest tax bracket.

K.


Actually the rich benefited the most since all the marginal rates decreased and the rich pay taxes under all those rates.




Kirata -> RE: Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cuts for the rich (8/22/2010 2:26:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Conveniently my ass. Nothing in what you quoted changes the fact that the Bush tax cuts were across the board, and that the biggest cut of all was for taxpayers in the lowest tax bracket


Which contradicts what your own link says.

The link shows that taxpayers in the lowest tax bracket saw their rate cut by 33%, and that none of the higher brackets saw their rate cut by anywhere near that much.

K.




Kirata -> RE: Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cuts for the rich (8/22/2010 2:36:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Actually the rich benefited the most since all the marginal rates decreased and the rich pay taxes under all those rates.

I take your point. But then, wouldn't it be true that anyone in a higher tax bracket than the next guy would benefit more? Maybe that highlights a fundamental problem with the way our tax system is structured?

edited to add:
I don't remember where the cut-off points for the various brackets are, but for someone making a couple of million dollars a year (or more) wouldn't the benefit of a tax break for the lowest bracket be fairly trivial? I do see how they would add up, though. Do you think it would be better if the tax rate for your earnings bracket applied to all your income?

K.




Hippiekinkster -> RE: Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cuts for the rich (8/22/2010 2:41:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheRaptorJesus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheRaptorJesus

4.4% and 5% are almost the same, aren't they, sugar?

A drop from 15% to 10% is a 33% cut in the tax rate (5 divided by 15). A drop from 39.6% to 35% is an 11.6% cut (4.6 divided by 39.6).

K.



I was talking actual percentage points not proportional percentage points.

K. Thnx.


Sorry, Kirata's right. You're wrong. It's very simple math.

for x >y, (x-y)/y gives % increase. For x>y, (x-y)/x gives % decrease.

HS math.




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