RE: Sub with someone not Dom enough- PLEASE HELP!

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KitaJo -> RE: Sub with someone not Dom enough- PLEASE HELP! (8/22/2010 6:14:35 PM)
I think any level of dominant behavior would be great. From strictness, to voice, to just being told what to do, to even experiencing his disapproval. Currently as it stands I appreciate him more than you believe for trying. Lockit is saying I blame him for not being what I want--I dont think I blame him--but since he does want to be with me I have to tell him what Im missing (or at least thats how I feel; perhaps that selfish). I feel like when he does try I dont believe him, and that is where we're at currently.

dreamerdreaming -> RE: Sub with someone not Dom enough- PLEASE HELP! (8/22/2010 8:15:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KitaJo I feel like when he does try I dont believe him, and that is where we're at currently. Exactly. Because he is vanilla, he's acting a part for you- because he loves you. Its not his authentic self, and it sounds like you both know it. So its just like if you acted completely vanilla. You'd be acting a part for him, because you love him. But you wouldn't be fulfilled because you wouldn't be being your authentic self, in doing so. Don't you think you both deserve someone who gets who you really are, and is nuts about the real you- instead of who you wish each other were? Life's too short! Behaving a certain way and being a certain way- behaving a certain way and actually feeling a certain way- those are different things. That's why what he's doing isn't working for you. He's not feelin' it. He just wants to make you happy because he loves you. But love just isn't enough. You need compatibility on multiple levels, to go along with the love. Love will not "conquer all", love won't "find a way", and love will just not be enough. This is what I wish someone had told me when I was younger. I thought if we just tried really hard and didn't give up, we'd succeed because we did have tons in common, and a very deep love for one another. But it just wasn't enough. My thoughts are with you.

hopefullittleone -> RE: Sub with someone not Dom enough- PLEASE HELP! (8/22/2010 8:43:27 PM)
I strongly disagree with those who think being dominant or not is black or white, inborn, absolute. I finally, after many many MANY years of looking for my Dom charming on sites like this, ended up meeting someone elsewhere, a man who had very little previous experience with BDSM or with taking a dominant role in sex. He had been in two long-term relationships in his adult life, and that was just not a part of them. When we started being sexual with each other, I wasn't at all sure we would be compatible. But we have slowly explored more and more territory. I don't have to push him at all, I just had to suggest things, be open about my own sexuality and give him time. Time to explore, time to re-imagine himself and connect with some long-denied impulses, and time to get over the idea that he shouldn't be rough with a woman. We have both been surprised at just how much he enjoys being Dommy. Last time I talked to him on the phone, he was gleefully practicing tying knots, and mentioned an "implement" with as much excitement as a little kid who was given a new toy. I think it helps that we are both sexually generous, and open-minded in general. I've also found him to be so much more loving than any self-identified Dom I met in "the lifestyle" (I'm sure they exist, I just never met any!!). I subscribe to Dan Savage's idea of GGG- good, giving, and game. And while those personal attributes won't cover for a serious lack of sexual compatibility, they can indeed help people extend themselves to meet their partner. However, 5+ years seems like more than enough time for the poster's partner to have come out of his shell if he were going to do so. He's known about your sexuality for a long time, and he doesn't seem that interested in or capable of connecting deeply with you sexually. If being dominated is important to you, and it seems like it is, I suspect you'll never find what you're looking for with this particular gentleman.

ResidentSadist -> RE: Sub with someone not Dom enough- PLEASE HELP! (8/22/2010 10:20:42 PM)
vanilla... cough cough -- ack.

subsfaith -> RE: Sub with someone not Dom enough- PLEASE HELP! (8/23/2010 10:56:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KitaJo I think any level of dominant behavior would be great. From strictness, to voice, to just being told what to do, to even experiencing his disapproval. KitaJo: Here you are deciding what dominant behaviour is. Essentially you are trying to control his behaviour to get what you want. Have you discussed with him his ideals of what dominant behaviour is? Are you missing what he is trying to do because it doesn't fit in with your ideal? quote: ORIGINAL: KitaJo I feel like when he does try I dont believe him, and that is where we're at currently. There is nothing like disrepectful behaviour to chase away any feeling of dominance. "I don't believe you' is only a short step away from 'you are a liar'... can you imagine how that must feel for him? Being submissive means you do what your dominant wants you to. So far all we hear from you is what you want. Despite him telling you that he enjoys this, you are emasculating him more by questioning his honesty. Going back to your initial post: quote: ORIGINAL: KitaJo During the course of our time together I have told him about the fact that I like being dominated and he has, albeit not too much, tried to take control. It has always felt half-hearted, or perhaps just not as much as I would want. He just never seems confident in what he is saying/doing. Never truly takes control and exerts his dominance. In this paragraph alone you completely dismiss everything he does because it is not to your standard, not what you want, belittling behaviour at best.... am I surprised he isn't confident? Not at all. Sounds like you are running him down. Now perhaps that isn't your intention, but that is what is happening here. Turn the tables and imagine how you would feel over the same period of time trying to do something he wanted you to do, but it was never good enough, he said he didn't believe you, you liked it, but he wouldn't hear of it, never enough? Lady, you are damaging your relationship. Going back to your original question, yes I believe that being the dominant partner can be learned. Should you give it more time? No, you should stop controlling him and excusing that behaviour by saying this is how you feel. Being dominant is both nature and nurture. One can be born with dominant traits, however, that doesn't mean they will be the predominant traits. Try reading The Surrendered Wife by Laura Doyle. It will demonstrate how you are controlling and emasculating your man. You could try working on your behaviour instead of focusing on his. You said you are getting depressed because of this... hardly surprising when you are so focused on it. Always remember, we cannot change another, only ourselves. With that in mind, work on how you respond to him, how you can be submissive to him even without your ideal of what is dominance. Good luck!

Twoshoes -> RE: Sub with someone not Dom enough- PLEASE HELP! (8/23/2010 11:12:17 AM)
I support subsfaith's approach. quote: Being dominant is both nature and nurture. One can be born with dominant traits, however, that doesn't mean they will be the predominant traits.

dreamerdreaming -> RE: Sub with someone not Dom enough- PLEASE HELP! (8/23/2010 11:29:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subsfaith Always remember, we cannot change another, only ourselves. Exactly, thank you! [:)] Subsfaith, your post is very well thought out and expressed. I would agree wholeheartedly with it except that HE IS VANILLA. She could be little miss uber-submissive to him, submitting beautifully, day and night- and it won't change his orientation. She will still be feeling deeply and profoundly unfulfilled because she is in submission to someone who doesn't need/desire it (whether not at all, or not in a way that she needs/desires her partner to). Because of who he is, he cannot appreciate and respond to her submission in the way that she needs/desires. You might just as well tell her to do a better job of spitting into the wind. (Edited for clarity.)

DesFIP -> RE: Sub with someone not Dom enough- PLEASE HELP! (8/23/2010 2:50:36 PM)
Dreamer, there's no proof that he's vanilla. She talked to him about this, he said he was interested, but anytime he tries to dominate her, she refuses to accept it. To force her to do it, without consent, leaves him open to prosecution. Decent people don't do things that others don't consent to. If she would ever try to submit to what he wants instead of criticizing him for not being real or true, he might come into his own. But what I really believe is that she's going to walk and his next relationship will be a good d/s one, with a sub who wants him to lead her. He sounds like a good guy who is laid back, and who deserves to be with someone who will allow him to decide what he cares about and what he doesn't unlike the op who has decided that she should set the rules he should give her.

dreamerdreaming -> RE: Sub with someone not Dom enough- PLEASE HELP! (8/23/2010 8:52:57 PM)
I would agree, except that its been five years! Anyone who had a dom inside them waiting to awaken, it seems to me would have come around right away. Five years into it, c'mon. [image]http://www.collarchat.com/image/s13.gif[/image] Even if he is actually a budding dom, instead of just going through the motions: it is evident that they aren't a good D/s match. So the point is moot, regarding this couple. If he is a dom, he's not the dom for her. We can agree on that.

Icarys -> RE: Sub with someone not Dom enough- PLEASE HELP! (8/24/2010 4:57:53 AM)
quote: Without knowing him better who can say if it's possible for him to grow into it? I can tell you that I certainly grew into the role of owning Carol. Granted, I started out a lot more dominant, but still there's no question that I've stretched and grown. Haven't read all of the posts. We have no idea of what type of dominant he is or how dominant that might be as you've pointed out. Only her words. She may very well have this fantasized idea of what that should be. Maybe he's not the, swinging from the rafters at your local bar dom that slaps every bitch in the face before grunting and picking out his mate for the night..dragging her and maybe her friend off into the sunset by the hair to live happily ever after..or at least till he needs fresh meat and stalks once again kinda guy.(eh the good ole days) Maybe he's just fine and maybe she has the "wrong ideas" and she'll grow into them over time..or who knows..they might not be compatible like a few others have posted up to this point.

KitaJo -> RE: Sub with someone not Dom enough- PLEASE HELP! (8/24/2010 9:43:05 AM)
There's a little truth in it all I think. I'm taking the advice from the people that are telling me to learn to submit regardless of what and how it is delivered and basically being patient. I'm seeing changes. The more he reads and we talk, the more communication that happens between us regarding the subject the better its getting. I'm not saying that we're headed to perfection,whose to say that exists in any relationship, but we're headed somewhere for certain. He is interested and he is trying and I do think he has it in him. I needed to see him make an honest attempt to drop my doubts and he has done that. Is it exactly what I want or need? I think only time will tell that because I can't expect him to arrive there instantly. Maybe we'll discover that regardless we are not the right fit, as someone else has said already, but the attempt is being made and with the advice many of you gave me I know that it is a much better one than if I hadnt heard it. Thank you.

masterlink65 -> RE: Sub with someone not Dom enough- PLEASE HELP! (8/24/2010 5:05:39 PM)
you should have sought out a more dominant man 5 years and one month ago. you should both seek some training, or attend some workshops on the matter. or you can be friends, depends on how much you really need this, and how much he really doesnt.

DesFIP -> RE: Sub with someone not Dom enough- PLEASE HELP! (8/25/2010 4:19:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dreamerdreaming I would agree, except that its been five years! Anyone who had a dom inside them waiting to awaken, it seems to me would have come around right away. Five years into it, c'mon. [8\|] Even if he is actually a budding dom, instead of just going through the motions: it is evident that they aren't a good D/s match. So the point is moot, regarding this couple. If he is a dom, he's not the dom for her. We can agree on that. Five years of telling him she isn't going to submit to him would erode anyone's confidence. But yes, they aren't a good couple. Her choices are to stay with the relationship staying as it is or to leave. Or of course stay and keep bitching and cutting him down.

WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Sub with someone not Dom enough- PLEASE HELP! (8/25/2010 6:48:13 AM)
Kitajo, I mean no offense to you. None whatsoever, and everything that I post from this point is me musing about things, and not a reflection what I think YOU should be doing. I've just been pondering your dilemna and finding it hard to relate. When I read of how others struggle to find someone to dominate them, or need someoen to dominate them in their relationship, I find it hard to really relate. This is why I doubt that I have what I think is an inate inner submission that drives me. I've never needed my partner to be overtlly dominant and order me around. If he likes something, I do my best to see he has it. If he wants something, I learn how to provide it for him. If he doesn't like or want something, I do my best not to be that or do that. Because I was raised that men are the head of the household, my default response is always to defer to the wishes of my partner. If he asks for something, I get up and get it. I don't think these actions are necessarily submissive, because 'vanilla' individuals do this all the time in their relationships. It baffles me, when someone has another who cares enough about them to try to do the things they want and need, and still it falls short of expectations. Here's my only advice. If you want to inspire and encourage a dominant behavior in someone, stop trying to direct his dominance and instead start focusing on your own service to him. Work on your own mindset. Start by focusing on what makes your partner happy. Take pleasure in all things, that you do to especially for him. I just don't see how anyone can thrive in a situation that they feel they've already failed in. I do wish you the best and happiness. Wish I could help, and I sincerely hope I haven't harmed. WinD

leadership527 -> RE: Sub with someone not Dom enough- PLEASE HELP! (8/25/2010 10:38:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance When I read of how others struggle to find someone to dominate them, or need someone to dominate them in their relationship, I find it hard to really relate. This is why I doubt that I have what I think is an inate inner submission that drives me. .... I don't think these actions are necessarily submissive, because 'vanilla' individuals do this all the time in their relationships. Well, your interpretation and mine are very different. Your description reads much like Carol. I suppose I might say that she is not submissive. In that same read, then I'm not dominant either. Neither of us craves or particularly seeks to be D/s. It's just a thing that seems to work out well for us. My read is that she is so naturally set in that mindset that she doesn't crave it anymore than she craves breathing... it's just a thing that happens. And just as a general statement, I personally am unable to reconcile "my default response is always to defer to the wishes of my partner" with "not submissive" since that would pretty much be the textbook definition of submission. Carol is kind of curious, if this doesn't count as "a submissive nature" then what does?

texangael -> RE: Sub with someone not Dom enough- PLEASE HELP! (8/25/2010 10:49:28 AM)
quote: I don't think these actions are necessarily submissive, because 'vanilla' individuals do this all the time in their relationships. It baffles me, when someone has another who cares enough about them to try to do the things they want and need, and still it falls short of expectations. There is an emotional subtext that can make a world of difference. In the Art of War, Sun Tzu wrote "When the general is weak and the troops are strong, the troops will be insubordinate." As any parent can tell you, the same thing applies to parents and children: if parents fail to enforce boundaries and rules, the children will run wild. It is not a wild extrapolation to apply the same principle to masters and slaves--if the master does not rule, does not lead, does not command, the slave will interpose her will on matters, and that's not what a slave seeks in her life. The emotional subtext is the credibility of the dominant's authority--does the slave accept, within herself, that his word is law, that his command is to be obeyed? Does she believe, instead, that if she disobeys no dramatic negative consequence will follow? She might "obey" just to be "nice"--as you point out, vanilla couples often do likewise--but if, in the back of her mind, she thinks that, if she didn't want to do something, she could simply refuse and that would be that, then she might not feel the domination, the sense of authority within the dominant, that she craves. It is very much an intangible quality, displayed less in the specific actions of the erstwhile "dominant" and more in his overall demeanor and disposition, but it is a very real quality, and where it is missing, slaves and submissives are going to feel the lack and it will not sit well.

subsfaith -> RE: Sub with someone not Dom enough- PLEASE HELP! (8/25/2010 1:49:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KitaJo Is it exactly what I want or need? I think only time will tell that because I can't expect him to arrive there instantly. Maybe we'll discover that regardless we are not the right fit, KitaJo, Firstly, well done for taking on board what has been said here. Your last post came across as quite humble... a huge difference between your first post and last. It is also great to hear you speaking of your confidence and belief in your man! This situation holds the potential for you both to grow massively as people and within your lifestyle choices. I want to wish you well on your journey. I wanted to add how we react to not getting what we want can be controlled by ourselves, without it having a detrimental effect. I don't believe that Ds is a need, but a want. However, if we place so much emphasis on Ds being essential to our lives we will make ourselves unhappy if those conditions are not met. So therefore I believe it is imperative that you take steps to learn the difference between what is a need and what is a want, and how you deal with your frustrations when you can't have what you want. When it is put like that it does seem quite basic really, something you would try and teach a child. But it is the bottom line. We can't have everything we want, particularly as a submissive because we have made the choice to go along with what another person wants. And, yes at times, that can be very challenging. "How should I react to this situation?" Try bearing this question in mind when you recognise you are being challenged, and go through your choices. For the good of you and what you want, for the good of him, his dominance and what he wants, etc? I don't think this is a situation where you and your partner are mismatched. You have been together for over five years... a bad fit would have been evident long before now. However, I do see that if you cannot find that happy place for you, in time, your relationship will deteriorate because of it. Feel free to message me off list if you would like to talk further. Faith

WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Sub with someone not Dom enough- PLEASE HELP! (8/25/2010 2:13:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 ...And just as a general statement, I personally am unable to reconcile "my default response is always to defer to the wishes of my partner" with "not submissive" since that would pretty much be the textbook definition of submission. Carol is kind of curious, if this doesn't count as "a submissive nature" then what does? I certainly wasn't intending to insult or invalidate anyone, definitely not yourself or Carol. Yes, they can certainly be submissive acts, but if submission was sufficient unto itself, and a submissive personality was content to merely serve others in a submissive capacity - there would not be so many unhappy and unfullfilled submissive individuals. To meet their needs, all they would need to do IS be of service. Since this isn't the case, I'm left wondering what I'm missing in the equation. This is my disconnect, because I'm personally content in my relationships (typically anyway). I don't feel incomplete or as if something is missing, if someone isn't acting dominant toward me. If my partner wants me, and needs me, and he's happy - I'm typically happy. To bring this back on topic, and about the OP and not myself - she obviously has a desire that is unfulfilled. I think, react and work differently, but I still hoped I could offer some insight that might be helpful. That being, to try and focus on her own mindset/thought processes and to stop attempting to direct his dominance. Again, I would hope that what baffles me, and those things I muse upon never come across as my attempting to invalidate or insult anyone. WinD

leadership527 -> RE: Sub with someone not Dom enough- PLEASE HELP! (8/25/2010 2:35:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance I certainly wasn't intending to insult or invalidate anyone, definitely not yourself or Carol. chuckles No worries. I certainly didn't take it that way. Carol is Carol and I love what she is. I'm not too worried about some label invalidating that laughs. In truth Winsome, I was more poking fun at you than worrying about whether I was dom or carol sub. Come on, seriously? You're seriously gonna go with the idea that a person who's default response is to defer might not be submissive? What? She's simply deferential? chuckles Back tot he OP though, your point echoes my own. Humans are highly attuned to the feelings, emotions, and mental states of those around them. That's why the best way as a photographer to get your model to smile for the camera is to smile at them. Want the model to be sexy? See them that way in your own head. Want them to be dominant? See them that way in your own head? As I said in my first post, the single most important thing Carol can do when my own sense of dominance is shaky is to submit. Honestly, it's hard not to feel dominant when there's someone submitting right there in front of you laughs EDITED TO ADD: I'd hope this would be obvious, but such things don't work if they are not deeply genuine. Going through the motions is a waste of time.

WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Sub with someone not Dom enough- PLEASE HELP! (8/25/2010 3:00:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 chuckles No worries. I certainly didn't take it that way. Carol is Carol and I love what she is. I'm not too worried about some label invalidating that laughs. In truth Winsome, I was more poking fun at you than worrying about whether I was dom or carol sub. Come on, seriously? You're seriously gonna go with the idea that a person who's default response is to defer might not be submissive? What? She's simply deferential? chuckles Back tot he OP though, your point echoes my own. Humans are highly attuned to the feelings, emotions, and mental states of those around them. That's why the best way as a photographer to get your model to smile for the camera is to smile at them. Want the model to be sexy? See them that way in your own head. Want them to be dominant? See them that way in your own head? As I said in my first post, the single most important thing Carol can do when my own sense of dominance is shaky is to submit. Honestly, it's hard not to feel dominant when there's someone submitting right there in front of you laughs EDITED TO ADD: I'd hope this would be obvious, but such things don't work if they are not deeply genuine. Going through the motions is a waste of time. Phew! Ok then.[:D] I'm ok with being poked fun of! Inadvertently offending someone, not so much. As for my deferral default, that's more of a learned behavior really. Probably a topic for another time, since that is verring rather far from the original topic.

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