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Thoughts on proposed welfare cuts in the UK? - 8/22/2010 7:33:54 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline 		I like to keep my eye on issues across the pond, and I thought this article was very interesting.

Several UK papers are speculating about the potential of drastic cuts in the welfare system.

Two of the cuts mentioned are reduction in child benefit payments, and cuts in the winter fuel payment assistance program.

It will be very interested what cuts are proposed, what cuts take place, and how the "people" effected in the UK will handle the cuts.

I hope some of our CM friends across the pond, will give us their thoughts on the situation.

One senior official stated that the cuts would be necessary because
"the well has run dry".

I am interested in what happens in the UK, and I predict future budget cuts to many of our social programs in the USA also, because it appears our well is certainly "running dry" over here.

Question: What do you think of the "alleged" possible cuts in the UK, and will the United States be making similar cuts in social services in the near future?
With both countries in a serious recession, is now the time to be cutting services?

The "well" may soon be running dry in the United States, also.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11008654


< Message edited by Marini -- 8/22/2010 7:38:43 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Thoughts on proposed welfare cuts in the UK? - 8/22/2010 9:15:49 PM   
DCWoody


Posts: 1401
Joined: 10/27/2006
Status: offline 		It isn't for certain yet, but it's looking very much as if they're going to raise the age for winter fuel payments (the age for the state pension is already set to increase...people are living about 30 years longer than when we started state pensions, and it's going up by 3/4 years, so most people reckon fair's fair to that one), and introduce an income limit on qualifying for child support.

The winter fuel payments thing is sensible IMO, makes sense to keep it in line with pension age...but it's drawn a hell of a lot of criticism because Cameron promised not to touch it during his campaign...and there's no way he can get away with labelling it a lib-dem policy. It could do him a lot of political damage...a couple of years back he went on the most popular newspaper and gave a 'cast iron guarantee' of a referendum on an EU treaty, then changed his mind as soon as he got in....beginning to get a reputation as an untrustworthy bastard, even by political promise standards. They're attacking Camerons integrity though, rather than the actual idea.

However, PMs reputation aside....it's a sensible policy, if they do it (I assume they will), I don't think many will complain...and there's certainly little danger of anyone freezing to death as a result.


The Child Benefits thing is more complex. The basic idea (again, it's not certain they'll do it yet) is to remove it from the middle classes & rich, but leave it for the less well off (dunno where they'll put the boundary, but sure it'll be amply high)....which in terms of how people will deal with it, it'll be fine....it's people who don't really 'need' it who're (probably) going to lose it.

There are a couple of problems though.....firstly, and hopefully easily solved by competent civil servants....ensuring that nobody's left in a situation where they ask NOT to get a raise, because they'd be worse off if they did, and secondly.....the reason it's become such a big cost is because the previous government were intentionally using it as an enticement/easener to have children (though they'd never say that of course). Like most western nations we don't have a good birth rate....and immigration is always in the top few issues...Labour had a variety of things working on this....with fair success, IIRC our birth rate rose from ~1.9 to ~2.0 over their time (ya want ~2.1 to keep your population the same). If this does become govt policy, it's likely that more people in the middle classes will choose to spend more time on their career instead of on kids, for the money. (even when it isn't a conscious decision...they put it off and put it off and it never happens for whatever reason).
And over the last few years the economy has hit the middle class birth rate too....so in the long term this could lead to pressures for higher (or at least sustained, which is already too much according to many voters) immigration.


But....the vast majority of people don't think that much about stuff, the middle classes who lose it will be a bit peeved.....but we know we've gotta cut somewhere, and they know they don't really 'need' the money. I don't think either policy will attract too much criticism considering, and I reckon they're both sensible ideas in the circumstances....so long as they're very careful how they work the child benefit income limit.

Re: The USA....IMO ya need tax rises rather than spending cuts.....but I guess that's just a result of us Brits being further to the left than you lot :)

(in reply to Marini)
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RE: Thoughts on proposed welfare cuts in the UK? - 8/22/2010 9:30:16 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline 		Hello Woody,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us.
I didn't realize that the middle class and the rich were entitled to the child benefits, that is very interesting.

In the US, many in the middle class/lower middle class are slipping, and many are falling into hard times.

I guess the middle class in the UK is doing a bit better than I thought.


I am glad that you don't think anyone will freeze to death, that is comforting.

Thank you again for weighing in and explaining the situation, from your point of view, matey!

< Message edited by Marini -- 8/22/2010 9:37:58 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to DCWoody)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Thoughts on proposed welfare cuts in the UK? - 8/22/2010 9:38:38 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Funny, two weeks ago I was in the Dollar store down the road and these two young, able bodied guys in their twenties were ahead of me in line and they paid for drinks and candy bars with what I thought were credit cards.
I made the casual remark to the clerk after they left that "doesn't anyone carry cash anymore" and she said, "not when you're on public assistance!"
I said, "You mean those were some type of welfare credit cards" and she said "yup!"
I find it hard to understand that young guys like that are, "on welfare." There must be some job that they can find.
I worked from the time I was 12 years old doing all kinds of jobs, dishwasher at a country club, finding golf balls in the woods and selling them to golfers, washing and waxing floors, kitchen help in a restaurant after school, loading trucks, cashier in a store etc.
If I were in a position like those guys I'd go to the nearest military recruiting station and make a life for myself.
Many people "on welfare" don't seem to want to do anything to get off of welfare.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Marini)
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RE: Thoughts on proposed welfare cuts in the UK? - 8/22/2010 9:51:33 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline 		Popeye the budget cuts I am talking about are in the U.K.

These budget cuts would affect winter fuel assistance programs and benefits for children.

What if those young, able bodied men can't find any jobs, what happens to them than?

< Message edited by Marini -- 8/22/2010 9:52:12 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Thoughts on proposed welfare cuts in the UK? - 8/22/2010 9:51:41 PM   
DCWoody


Posts: 1401
Joined: 10/27/2006
Status: offline 		I am a young able bodied guy, and I agree with (most of) that....wouldn't want anyone in a situation where it was 'join the army or bust'....but it's so damn easy to just start washing windows or cars or collecting cans, and hardly anyone does. I reckon it's the 80s legacy (entire areas were completely out of work, no use washing windows cos no-one could pay you for it) combined with minimum wage. Though in and of itself minimum wage is a policy I fully support, it has to some extent given a giant mental signal to everyone that if it won't get ya at least £5.50 an hour, you shouldn't do it.....


Then again, if someone IS collecting golfballs for cash, they should also be on benefits IMO.

Re:Marini...AFAIK even billionaires are elligible, don't think there's any limit at all atm.

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RE: Thoughts on proposed welfare cuts in the UK? - 8/22/2010 10:01:29 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

Popeye the budget cuts I am talking about are in the U.K.

These budget cuts would affect winter fuel assistance programs and benefits for children.

What if those young, able bodied men can't find any jobs, what happens to them than?



Marini, the political candidates in this state (SC) are talking about "time limits" on welfare and ending "generational welfare."
Nicky Haley who's probably going to be our next governor was talking about it.
So, if the U.K. does it it's sure to come up here. Maybe they could bring back the "CCCC" again if this "reccession" gets worse.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Marini)
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RE: Thoughts on proposed welfare cuts in the UK? - 8/22/2010 11:10:18 PM   
DCWoody


Posts: 1401
Joined: 10/27/2006
Status: offline 		This may be a little related to what I was saying earlier :)
http://www.wimp.com/livingland/

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RE: Thoughts on proposed welfare cuts in the UK? - 8/23/2010 4:29:05 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

Popeye the budget cuts I am talking about are in the U.K.

These budget cuts would affect winter fuel assistance programs and benefits for children.

What if those young, able bodied men can't find any jobs, what happens to them than?



Marini, the political candidates in this state (SC) are talking about "time limits" on welfare and ending "generational welfare."
Nicky Haley who's probably going to be our next governor was talking about it.
So, if the U.K. does it it's sure to come up here. Maybe they could bring back the "CCCC" again if this "reccession" gets worse.


Popeye, isn't there already a time limit on TANF? I believe it is five years.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Thoughts on proposed welfare cuts in the UK? - 8/23/2010 5:05:11 AM   
DomYngBlk


Posts: 3316
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

Popeye the budget cuts I am talking about are in the U.K.

These budget cuts would affect winter fuel assistance programs and benefits for children.

What if those young, able bodied men can't find any jobs, what happens to them than?



Marini, the political candidates in this state (SC) are talking about "time limits" on welfare and ending "generational welfare."
Nicky Haley who's probably going to be our next governor was talking about it.
So, if the U.K. does it it's sure to come up here. Maybe they could bring back the "CCCC" again if this "reccession" gets worse.


I thought you were in NH Pops. If you've got the luxury of two houses why the hell are you always bitching?

(in reply to popeye1250)
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RE: Thoughts on proposed welfare cuts in the UK? - 8/23/2010 5:23:09 AM   
MyMasterStephen


Posts: 219
Joined: 8/16/2005
Status: offline 		It's not just Child Benefit and Winter Fuel payments that are affected.

One of the most controversial is a change in the way that qualification for long-term disability benefits is assessed.  They're tightening the rules, and so taking people off of long-term benefits - making them, ostensibly, fit for work.  But there is no work - unemployment is still rising slowly, so they're just going to be added to the unemployed numbers.  But unemployment benefit is less than incapacity benefit, so money will be saved...

(in reply to Marini)
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RE: Thoughts on proposed welfare cuts in the UK? - 8/23/2010 9:46:24 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		More the point of those who were on long term benefits being made fit for work when there is no work, is the fact that if there is no work, the people who were on benefits will have to go back on them. Anyone who has ever tried to get what they are entitled to in this country will know just what kind of a nightmare it is, forms upon forms upon forms, ambiguous forms and with that time, it takes a long time to get what one needs to live very basically, which the law states is £93.45 per week, a sum which does not take into account the rises in food, transport and utility costs that have risen since the banking crisis. People who have successfully managed to get what they think they are entitled to by law after all the work and time involved in this present uncertain climate are keen to stay where they are as we have all heard the false promises before.

The other situation that those on long term benefits have to counter is that of housing, a place to live, which is necessary if one even wants to get back into work, as an employer needs an address as does the tax office. Social housing is fucked in this country, too much has been sold off and nothing or very little has been built in it's place to house those on lower incomes, so most on lower incomes including those on benefits rely on housing benefit so they may rent privately and even that is fraught with difficulty and discrimination for it appears it is very legal to state NO DSS. An old term to deny those on benefits from even thinking to try and rent certain places due to the almost universal belief that benefit claimants are feckless scroungers who by the very virtue of their status in life are seen to be scum that will destroy the property and there is of course the fact that due to housing benefit bureaucracy a land lord may have to wait for the rent to be paid, as the benefits machine turns very slowly.

With social housing, the old council housing, well, what is left is meagre and if one does not fall into a select category, it is a case of though the council is required by law to house a person, they cannot as all housing has been ear marked for special groups. This so much so many go the disabilities route simply so that they may qualify for housing, which even as registered disabled is not a sure bet, as it depends on level of inability with some and what gender and sometimes colour a person is. It is known to be that if you are male, healthy and able bodied forget it, though you are entitled by law, you will not get social housing. I in that position a few years ago was told, and these were the words used, shack up with a young pregnant woman, then I will be eligible for a council house, but will only be eligible whilst I am living with this person, and if it is my desire to work, then that might make it difficult for the woman due to the fact that she will possibly get more on benefits than what I can provide. The system that many of us are subject to actually creates much of the problem, it isn't always people, but the government system, they force laziness and then denigrate us for being lazy.

Fair enough there are examples of the worst kind of benefit claimant, the likes that the newspaper's like to expose to the tax paying public, but what the public has to realise is what newspapers are doing, for they are the very servants of the politicians who wish to placate an angry public by pointing fingers at a defenceless section of society and with that creating a lot of anger from those defenceless people because it seems their country hates them. Now, with that latter thought in mind, take an unemployed person of Asian ancestry and see what it might do to them for the feeling of hatred by the rest of the loyal public is very real.


As to Popeye's remark, join the army if there is no work, I did that back in the eighties when PM Thatcher was in power during the last recession, where were I lived, it was 25% unemployment. Joining the military got me out of unemployment, but it did no good for me as a person. But of the military and more so what is being spent on operations overseas, could that even have anything to do with the financial situation as it is for all of us, could the bloody wars be the cause, if so anyone whois unemployed should seriously resist going into the armed forces as all it does is create more opportunity for the dick head politicians to fail in their job and send in the troops.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to MyMasterStephen)
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RE: Thoughts on proposed welfare cuts in the UK? - 8/23/2010 10:28:49 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

Popeye the budget cuts I am talking about are in the U.K.

These budget cuts would affect winter fuel assistance programs and benefits for children.

What if those young, able bodied men can't find any jobs, what happens to them than?



Marini, the political candidates in this state (SC) are talking about "time limits" on welfare and ending "generational welfare."
Nicky Haley who's probably going to be our next governor was talking about it.
So, if the U.K. does it it's sure to come up here. Maybe they could bring back the "CCCC" again if this "reccession" gets worse.


I thought you were in NH Pops. If you've got the luxury of two houses why the hell are you always bitching?



DYB, no, I live in Myrtle Beach SC now, moved here from New Hampshire six years ago to get away from the severe winters and can't get that off my avatar for some reason.
And I live in a condo not a house, houses aren't a "luxury" they're a lot of work.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to DomYngBlk)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Thoughts on proposed welfare cuts in the UK? - 8/23/2010 7:28:01 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MyMasterStephen

It's not just Child Benefit and Winter Fuel payments that are affected.

One of the most controversial is a change in the way that qualification for long-term disability benefits is assessed.  They're tightening the rules, and so taking people off of long-term benefits - making them, ostensibly, fit for work.  But there is no work - unemployment is still rising slowly, so they're just going to be added to the unemployed numbers.  But unemployment benefit is less than incapacity benefit, so money will be saved...


Changing the "qualifications for long-term disability" IS very serious, indeed.
Tightening the rules and taking people off of long=term benefits in this economy?

Thanks for posting, I will certainly continue to watch what is going on across the pond.

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to MyMasterStephen)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Thoughts on proposed welfare cuts in the UK? - 8/23/2010 7:45:52 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline 		Aneirin,

I was hoping you would "weigh" in with your point of view!
Thank you so very much, for taking the time to give a realistic and
thoughtful explanation of what is going on with social services across the pond.

Thank you for telling us about the maze you must go through, and how hard it is to obtain "social housing".
What a damn nightmare!
I guess you didn't take the advice to "shack" up with a young pregnant woman, just to get housing?


Can't find a job, matey? Well join the military!
Where have we heard that one before?

Thank you again for sharing from the "front lines" and posting.

< Message edited by Marini -- 8/23/2010 8:07:50 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Thoughts on proposed welfare cuts in the UK? - 8/23/2010 9:29:11 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		I used to be in the position of the people that read about the scroungers in the popular news rags and there pointed fingers, I was amongst them, and I could not see why a person who was unemployed could not get a job and claw their way out of their situation.

Then I became one of them, I got made redundant one day before my first two years in a job was up and because of existing problems, redundancy did not help my mood in the slightest bit, I went down and big time at that. I was forced to use benefits, I needed them and wanted them, because the alternative was the streets or worse, out of it altogether. It eventually took me over three years to get what I believe I was entitled to, and that only after I had sought the advice from a specialist in social welfare, for the benefits agencies will not help, neither will they tell you if you are not claiming your full rights.

Due to the stress of it all and my existing problems which had not been addressed by the medical services for the simple reason that as a single unattached male in a GP trust, there is little funding for my grouping, the majority of funding goes towards the important groups, children, mothers, oap's, families, registered disabilities, immigrants etc, single males are right down the bottom end somewhere, for nothing was being done despite my continuous inquiries. The result was pretty serious medication and there the end of my profession, that of scaling tower cranes to repair lifting equipment and man riding machines, the end because of the medication side effects, so on long term sick I was put, until the problem could be sorted out, which to this date nothing has been done apart from a visit to a psychiatrist who said I had mild Asperger's syndrome, but where I go from here, I don't know, so I am at college on a part time basis studying for a BA in applied art with the hope that I can change my career path by retraining.

Recently undoubtedly due to the government plans to fuck the benefit claimants around, I have had benefit after benefit cut or be removed altogether, it is a daily fight to get back what the law states I should have and in the meantime, forms and more forms which I have serious problems with already due to learning difficulties. Forms filled in, it takes time for the wheels of bureaucracy to turn and all the time that is happening the constant thought is why bother.

But something came to light recently, a friend in his early fifties consistently fails to get every job he applies for, so I asked him, given the fact that this guy has a Master of Arts in US civil war history, he cannot find a job, was it his age, his reply was partly, the other reason seems to be lack of personal transport and that necessary because public transport severely sucks around here It sucks in that it only starts in the morning at 7am and finishes at 11pm, which makes it no use for people who have to take work that starts earlier or indeed at seven am, nor is it any use for those working shift patterns that finish after 11pm This guy's problems are particularly galling because of his academic qualifications and the fact he is an ex soldier who served his country in two separate conflicts.

As to shacking up with anyone to get housing, no, I didn't, in fact I blasted the housing advisor for suggesting such a thing but she was right and she was actually trying to help my situation. I got private no DSS housing, I got it a week before I lost my job, and er, just sort of forgot to inform my landlord of my changed status, but then what does it matter, the rent gets paid every month on time, I make sure of that, and I not only look after this place, but also help my OAP neighbours with the problems they have with their properties. An ex repairman, I repair and service whatever is broken or needs attention for free, just a neighbourly thing to do.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Thoughts on proposed welfare cuts in the UK? - 8/23/2010 9:42:04 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		After all the money those #$%^&* politicians gave to those bastards on Wall Street and the banks and they propose now to cut programs for the poor and the middle class? I don’t think so! They can go to hell.

They can start first with cuts/rollbacks to the salaries and pensions of the politicians who have done a piss poor job and then they can seize/confiscate/take back ALL the money they gave to the banks and give it back to the middle class.

Screw this bullshit of the poor and middle class always paying. And it’s time the rich paid their fair share of taxes again.

I can’t believe you people are resigned to cut programs for the middle class and poor so easily. If they didn’t need the programs they would not have received them in the first place.

Bill

(in reply to Marini)
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RE: Thoughts on proposed welfare cuts in the UK? - 8/23/2010 9:47:46 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Ah, but you forget something Brain, it is far easier to attack defenceless people than those who have a lot of power, as no way will this government attack the money holders and lenders, you know, the rich and powerful. The poor have again become the whipping boy for the country, the people to blame for all the ills we suffer.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to Brain)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Thoughts on proposed welfare cuts in the UK? - 8/24/2010 7:34:48 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline 		Thank you so much for sharing this information Anerin, I had no idea what you had been through dealing with "the system".

wow, I have gained a lot of respect for you.

I hope you are proud of yourself, you are a real "survivor"!

Thank you for sharing your inspirational story.

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Thoughts on proposed welfare cuts in the UK? - 8/25/2010 4:55:31 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

After all the money those #$%^&* politicians gave to those bastards on Wall Street and the banks and they propose now to cut programs for the poor and the middle class? I don’t think so! They can go to hell.

They can start first with cuts/rollbacks to the salaries and pensions of the politicians who have done a piss poor job and then they can seize/confiscate/take back ALL the money they gave to the banks and give it back to the middle class.

Screw this bullshit of the poor and middle class always paying. And it’s time the rich paid their fair share of taxes again.

I can’t believe you people are resigned to cut programs for the middle class and poor so easily. If they didn’t need the programs they would not have received them in the first place.

Bill


I didn't realize the the politicians in the UK were giving all their money to the bankers on wall street. Why would they do that? And when you say give the money back to the middle class, are you talking about the middle class in the UK or in the US?


_____________________________

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This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


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