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Sadism vs. Violence - 8/27/2010 12:38:01 PM   
EastbourneCouple


Posts: 21
Joined: 6/18/2010
Status: offline 		Hi - male (Master) half of the EastbourneCouple here.

I am a sadist and enjoy inflicting pain on my slave, who also likes to receive it.

Thing is, I am also a pacifist. I deplore violence in all its forms. I am dead against war and the glorification of war (I don't even wear a poppy and things like Trooping the Colour and the Edinburgh Military Tattoo deeply offend me).

Many people can't understand how I can be a sadist AND a pacifist, as they see sadism as a form of violence, but to me violence is inflicting unwanted pain and suffering, sadism is inflicting wanted/needed pain.

I'd be interested to hear others' opinions.
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RE: Sadism vs. Violence - 8/27/2010 12:48:33 PM   
Whenready


Posts: 319
Joined: 3/5/2009
Status: offline 		I cannot agree with your definition.

Because something is wanted by both parties does not make it nonviolent. I would therefore have to assume from my definition that there is a line in your mind - with consent or non consent either side - which makes that violence (My definition) either acceptable or unacceptable to you.

If it works for both of you, fine, but I would define it a different way.

(in reply to EastbourneCouple)
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RE: Sadism vs. Violence - 8/27/2010 12:58:37 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		I don't really think so much about the difference, if any.

To me.....and just for me,violence seems so.....uncontrolled. Very, unleashed and without control. Example: someone has a violent temper. There is nothing about my sadism that is not controlled.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to EastbourneCouple)
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RE: Sadism vs. Violence - 8/27/2010 12:59:08 PM   
EastbourneCouple


Posts: 21
Joined: 6/18/2010
Status: offline 		The word "violence" comes from the same latin roots as the word "violate", which the dictionary defines as "To break, disregard, disagree or not act according to (rules, conventions, etc.)".

If someone consents to having pain inflicted on them, the person inflicting the pain is not, therefore, violating them.

(in reply to Whenready)
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RE: Sadism vs. Violence - 8/27/2010 12:59:43 PM   
daddysliloneds


Posts: 1351
Joined: 6/28/2006
Status: offline 		sadism is violent; consensual violence

(in reply to EastbourneCouple)
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RE: Sadism vs. Violence - 8/27/2010 1:23:35 PM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline 		For starters, it's not "glorification" of war to celebrate the considerable sacrifice of coming through a nation's darkest hour - that most armed forces are about *defending* their people and territory from tyranny and oppression etc. If you're the type to passively lay down and be walked on by those who feel entitled, then I'd wonder just how much your slave can count on your protection in a crunch. Or why she'd even wanna be a slave to a doormat....

I deplore violence, too! And one of the best deterrants is to show strength and determination in the face of it. But if that's how you rationalise sadism and masochism between consenting (and esp caring) adults, then you really are a misty-eyed conflicted screw-up. Fulfilling mutual needs is a world away from satiating personal issues at the expense of another's welfare.

Lucky you (I s'pose) to live in such a sheltered ivory tower.... That would've come through the expense and sacrifice of others, too - those you dare to judge so harshly!

Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

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RE: Sadism vs. Violence - 8/27/2010 1:30:27 PM   
adx


Posts: 102
Joined: 1/6/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EastbourneCouple

The word "violence" comes from the same latin roots as the word "violate", which the dictionary defines as "To break, disregard, disagree or not act according to (rules, conventions, etc.)".

If someone consents to having pain inflicted on them, the person inflicting the pain is not, therefore, violating them.



Here I would tell you to remember that English Is very much a living language so the roots mean very little in this case. Violence means something completely different in the modern word. By the way you shouldn't us an English dictionary to define the classical Latin meaning of the word it just wont work right. Violence is defined as  rough or injurious physical force, action, or treatment. 

(in reply to EastbourneCouple)
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RE: Sadism vs. Violence - 8/27/2010 1:33:40 PM   
DemonKia


Posts: 5521
Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Chico, Nor-Cali
Status: offline 		FR

For me it works out like this: the only morally tenable violence is fully informed & consensual violence.

_____________________________

Snarko ergo sum.



The Verbossinator

(in reply to Focus50)
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RE: Sadism vs. Violence - 8/27/2010 1:44:14 PM   
Wolf2Bear


Posts: 3204
Joined: 9/6/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EastbourneCouple

Hi - male (Master) half of the EastbourneCouple here.

I am a sadist and enjoy inflicting pain on my slave, who also likes to receive it.

Thing is, I am also a pacifist. I deplore violence in all its forms. I am dead against war and the glorification of war (I don't even wear a poppy and things like Trooping the Colour and the Edinburgh Military Tattoo deeply offend me).

Many people can't understand how I can be a sadist AND a pacifist, as they see sadism as a form of violence, but to me violence is inflicting unwanted pain and suffering, sadism is inflicting wanted/needed pain.

I'd be interested to hear others' opinions.



What you need to consider is regarding violence, it is usually committed upon others non consensually and in a manner which ignores the boundaries of the victim. Violence is usually characterized as being out of control and in a mindless way; as I perceive it. I see sadism in a BDSM flavoured dynamic is one where the acts of sadistic actions are done to another with the other person's consent and agreement. These actions are usually done under controlled circumstances and which falls within the agreements laid out by both the sadist and the masochist. Overall I identify as a pacifist yet do have a sadistic streak, yet these aspects do not conflict with each other. In everyday life, if I was threatened or anyone whom I care about, I do have the ability and capability to retaliate if all else fails - that would include using violence as a last resort. My abhorrance of violence in mosdt forms remains within one aspect of my life, the sadism stays within the kinky aspect of  who I am and neither interfere with the other.


_____________________________

~Resident Sadist Approved~

Take the pain
Take the pleasure
I'm the master of both
Close your eyes, not your mind
Let me into your soul
I'm gonna work it 'til your totally blown

(in reply to EastbourneCouple)
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RE: Sadism vs. Violence - 8/27/2010 1:51:37 PM   
EastbourneCouple


Posts: 21
Joined: 6/18/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50
If you're the type to passively lay down and be walked on by those who feel entitled, then I'd wonder just how much your slave can count on your protection in a crunch. Or why she'd even wanna be a slave to a doormat....


For starters, I am not a doormat and just because I don't resort to violence if I am threatened does not mean I cannot protect myself or my loved ones. That attitude is precisely what I deplore.

If you feel that resorting to violence is the best form of protection, then I know that you would certainly not earn the respect of my slave.

quote:

Fulfilling mutual needs is a world away from satiating personal issues at the expense of another's welfare.


Precisely my point - sadism to me is a case of fulfilling mutual needs, whereas what I refer to as violence is not. I was not really wanting a discussion about the literal meaning of the word violence, but more the concept of aggression in a non-consensual way.

People I have spoken with assume that because I enjoy inflicting pain for mutual pleasure, then I must surely also enjoy inflicting pain on anyone, regardless of consent, which simply isn't true.

quote:

Lucky you (I s'pose) to live in such a sheltered ivory tower.... That would've come through the expense and sacrifice of others, too - those you dare to judge so harshly!

Who exactly am I judging? I have made no comment about anyone who has fought in a war or been in the armed forces. I just feel that parading up and down, proudly showing off weapons designed to kill other people is glorification of something the human race should be ashamed of, not proud.

(in reply to Focus50)
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RE: Sadism vs. Violence - 8/27/2010 2:06:24 PM   
Foxwell


Posts: 5
Joined: 8/20/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EastbourneCouple

Hi - male (Master) half of the EastbourneCouple here.

I am a sadist and enjoy inflicting pain on my slave, who also likes to receive it.

Thing is, I am also a pacifist. I deplore violence in all its forms. I am dead against war and the glorification of war (I don't even wear a poppy and things like Trooping the Colour and the Edinburgh Military Tattoo deeply offend me).

Many people can't understand how I can be a sadist AND a pacifist, as they see sadism as a form of violence, but to me violence is inflicting unwanted pain and suffering, sadism is inflicting wanted/needed pain.

I'd be interested to hear others' opinions.



It sounds like you and the people you mentioned are just misunderstanding the word violent. Violent has a bit of a tricky definition. If you hurt someone intentionally, this is considered an act of "violence", but if you don't intend to it is not. However in both occurrences the occurrence (not the act) is considered violent (not violence. Violent). For example: An accident causes a factory to explode, well damn that was a violent explosion, but it wasn't intentional and couldn't be defined as a violent act.

In your case, yes your acts on you slave are an act of violence. You are aware of what your doing and you intend to create a violent impression upon your slave. However this is not bad, it is an exception to a distinction that would otherwise make it bad. There are almost always technicalities in the way we perceive things. The reason your confused about it is probably because your focusing so much on the action to understand if it's bad instead of looking at the results. Your slave enjoys it so no it isn't bad. If you take things to far then yes it becomes bad, but the point is you cant expect your pacifism to be a perfect disapproval for all violence. That would just be silly.


(in reply to EastbourneCouple)
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RE: Sadism vs. Violence - 8/27/2010 2:09:31 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EastbourneCouple

I'd be interested to hear others' opinions.


The real question is: would you, on some level, enjoy inflicting it on someone who did not enjoy receiving it?

If not, then you are into pain play, which has precisely nothing to do with either sadism or violence.

And, as such, I can't see that pacifism has any bearing on your pain play activities, at all.

In the opposite case, I would tend to see your pacifism as a mental deflection of the sort one often observes in humans who have not found a way to integrate their personality in areas which appear to be in conflict with the values they have been reared into. That isn't unusual, but developing the confidence to face and correctly integrate a discordant element is more useful in the long run.

So, which would you say is the case?

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to EastbourneCouple)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Sadism vs. Violence - 8/27/2010 2:44:14 PM   
EastbourneCouple


Posts: 21
Joined: 6/18/2010
Status: offline 		Aswad- a very intelligent and interesting response, thank you!

I would say I am a sadist rather than just into pain play. Sadism is more than just infliction of pain - I will happily caused immense pain to consenting others, to the point where they cannot take any more but also verbally abuse them, degrade them and humiliate them. I have no limits other than those agreed between the consenting people.

Your "alternative" option certainly intrigues me - my personality is certainly very different from my parents and even my sisters. I am very liberal whereas they are very conservative. I am not sure exactly why I have ended up so different from them, but always have been the black sheep of the family.

Foxwell - as I said in previous post, I wasn't so much interested in defining "violence", but more making the point that people don't understand the fact that someone can be a pacifist but also enjoy being a sadist.

Perhaps I made a poor choice in my use of language, for which I apologise.

(in reply to Aswad)
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RE: Sadism vs. Violence - 8/27/2010 2:48:07 PM   
aldompdx


Posts: 538
Joined: 10/24/2004
Status: offline 		Simply examine the etymology of the word "violence" and you have your answer. It is remarkable how much people debate words without considering their origin. E.g., "I consider blue to mean green, because I own a free slave, and a silly-hob dumpty-wig is always larger than a breadbox." It all sounds so reasonable when reading Alice In Wonderland.

violence:
late 13c., "physical force used to inflict injury or damage," from Anglo-Fr. and O.Fr. violence, from L. violentia "vehemence, impetuosity," from violentus "vehement, forcible," probably related to violare (see violate). Weakened sense of "improper treatment" is attested from 1590s.

You are attempting not to distinguish your preferences from violence, but from tresspass, or violating the person, ex delicto.

pacifism:
1902, from Fr. pacifisme, from pacifique (see pacific).

pacific:
1540s, "tending to make peace," from M.Fr. pacifique, from L. pacificus "peaceful, peace-making," from pax (gen. pacis) "peace" + root of facere "to make" (see factitious). Meaning "peaceful, calm" is first recorded 1630s. Related: Pacifically.

While you may find peace in violence, the general consensus is that violence is not peaceful.

(in reply to EastbourneCouple)
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RE: Sadism vs. Violence - 8/27/2010 3:14:20 PM   
Foxwell


Posts: 5
Joined: 8/20/2010
Status: offline
quote:

previous post, I wasn't so much interested in defining "violence", but more making the point that people don't understand the fact that someone can be a pacifist but also enjoy being a sadist.
quote:

ORIGINAL: EastbourneCouple

Aswad- a very intelligent and interesting response, thank you!

I would say I am a sadist rather than just into pain play. Sadism is more than just infliction of pain - I will happily caused immense pain to consenting others, to the point where they cannot take any more but also verbally abuse them, degrade them and humiliate them. I have no limits other than those agreed between the consenting people.

Your "alternative" option certainly intrigues me - my personality is certainly very different from my parents and even my sisters. I am very liberal whereas they are very conservative. I am not sure exactly why I have ended up so different from them, but always have been the black sheep of the family.

Foxwell - as I said in previous post, I wasn't so much interested in defining "violence", but more making the point that people don't understand the fact that someone can be a pacifist but also enjoy being a sadist.

Perhaps I made a poor choice in my use of language, for which I apologise.



No problem XD I guess I could have read it more carefully

(in reply to EastbourneCouple)
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RE: Sadism vs. Violence - 8/27/2010 3:14:45 PM   
Aileen1968


Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
Status: offline 		Well let's see....he's inflicted a lot of pain on me in very slow, controlled, methodical ways.
And he's inflicted a lot of pain on me in very fast and furious, some would even say violent, ways.
Both methods of delivery, while extremely different, were done by the same man, sometimes within the same timeframe.
Pain can be given in very violent ways and still be very wanted and craved.
It ain't all lovey dovey.

_____________________________



(in reply to EastbourneCouple)
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RE: Sadism vs. Violence - 8/27/2010 3:40:52 PM   
DomImus


Posts: 2004
Joined: 3/17/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EastbourneCouple
Sadism is inflicting wanted/needed pain.


That's my definition of a service top.




_____________________________

"Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable." Sidney J. harris

(in reply to EastbourneCouple)
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RE: Sadism vs. Violence - 8/27/2010 5:17:35 PM   
junecleaver


Posts: 1145
Joined: 4/6/2005
Status: offline 		Most vague answer ever: it depends on why the person is perpetrating the act.

I really can't consider a terrified 18 year old guy in Iraq randomly firing his weapon (and praying he doesn't hit anything) because that's what he's suppose to do as an 'act of violence.'  It's not coming from a violent place.  The same with BDSM...are you being violent with me or just trying to give me what I want?  It depends on where it's all coming from and the measure of control is involves.


_____________________________


"No one will ever win the battle of the sexes; there's too much fraternizing with the enemy. "
--Henry A. Kissinger

(in reply to EastbourneCouple)
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RE: Sadism vs. Violence - 8/27/2010 5:28:17 PM   
Twoshoes


Posts: 1218
Joined: 7/27/2010
Status: offline 		Well when I read the header, I start thinking along the lines of control vs lack of control...

Some pretty bad violence comes from places of fear and powerlessness.

(in reply to junecleaver)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Sadism vs. Violence - 8/27/2010 6:50:34 PM   
marie2


Posts: 1690
Joined: 11/4/2008
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EastbourneCouple
Many people can't understand how I can be a sadist AND a pacifist, as they see sadism as a form of violence, but to me violence is inflicting unwanted pain and suffering, sadism is inflicting wanted/needed pain.


Isn't that all the matters?? How you and your woman see it?

Who are these "many people" you are refering to? And why does it matter how "they" see sadism?

If I were you, I'd stop trying to square these two labels (pacifist/sadist) against each other. Looks like apples and oranges.


(in reply to EastbourneCouple)
Profile   Post #: 20
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