RE: Same-sex kissing (for straight subs) - limits and thoughts

RE: Same-sex kissing (for straight subs) - limits and thoughts (Full Version)

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subrob1967 -> RE: Same-sex kissing (for straight subs) - limits and thoughts (9/1/2010 11:40:48 AM)
I prefer to reserve my hard limits to things I absolutely would no do, so while I'd find it very distasteful, and a major turn off, I'd do it if Karen or Holly wanted me to.

sunshinemiss -> RE: Same-sex kissing (for straight subs) - limits and thoughts (9/1/2010 1:47:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha I know a lot of subs have kissing the same sex as a 'hard limit.' And I guess I wonder why - you sum it up here, you wouldn't enjoy it and don't desire it in any way but if your partner ordered you to do it, you'd do it to please them. That's what submission is, right? For some people it is. Not for others. "hard limits" are good. They protect people. But do some subs label things "hard limits" if they find that there's nothing fun, sexy or exciting about doing them? Isn't surrender about doing things you don't want to do, because it makes your partner happy and/or aroused? And if they are even more aroused by your discomfort? Not everybody is into that. Also, there is a difference between discomfort and disgust / nauseated. Not everyone is an emotional masochist. Same sex kissing happens all the time between hetereosexuals. People losing bets in bars, college kids experimenting one time while pretending to be drunk when they are not, people playing spin the bottle. Same-sex kissing between girlfriends (straight) at parties to get the attention of men is...is that even considered taboo anymore? It just seems pretty prevalent. So it's just one kiss - to please the one you submit to. What makes it a hard limit? Just the disgust of the act? I can't believe you would bring these things up and actually compare them with the mindset that submissives get into. There is a lot more trust and vulnerability involved in submission (usually). You're comparing apples to oranges. Sometimes I think about the unthinkable things I made "non sub men" do in the moment of seduction, after sexual persuasion, in the heat of the moment, things they would NEVER do for another soul. You know how hard it is to get a non kinky guy to accept a dildo in his mouth or up his ass? That's surrender. Again, there is trust involved there. That's different - being a person's lover/one night stand is different than being the buddy of a bunch of frat boys drinking brews in a bar. Also, let's face it. You most likely select men who would be more submissive in their manner to you, who perhaps want to experiment, who want to fulfill a fantasy. So you get to give them the experience. Then they go back to ... Yeah, well... ok... that was weird. Or they feel shame... or they realize something about themselves. You even show that you know they are trusting you as "submissive" by using quotes. Would you seriously choose them if they didn't respond to you in that way? So what's so difficult about one shared kiss for those straight people, if your dominant was so excited by the idea? Actors do it all the time, as evidenced in this article. How do they find it in themselves to not only do the act, but to enjoy it with all their soul, so they can make the viewer believe the passion is real? Some people don't actually like to violate their own integrity. Not everybody just follows whatever someone else says to do. Just throwing it out there. Akasha

littleone35 -> RE: Same-sex kissing (for straight subs) - limits and thoughts (9/1/2010 3:44:56 PM)
Do anything sexual with another woman and yes i condiser tounge kissing sexual it a hard limit. I wouls kiss another man if Master wnted me too( i only want to kiss Maaster though) but as he told me on more then once he don't share what belongs to him. He would not break my hard limits. Matt's littleone

jujubeeMB -> RE: Same-sex kissing (for straight subs) - limits and thoughts (9/1/2010 6:46:04 PM)
I'm a bit surprised at how disturbed everyone is at kissing members of the same gender. I'm straight as a blade (have had sex with women before, so I know it for sure) but I'd kiss multiple women without an issue, as long as the women felt comfortable with me having no real sexual attraction to them (and it had no negative affect on whatever relationship I was in). Kissing is very intimate and very sexual, but women are hot, even if I'm not wired that way. Besides, I went to a theatre school for college. We played spin the bottle like it was our job. [:)]

Twoshoes -> RE: Same-sex kissing (for straight subs) - limits and thoughts (9/1/2010 6:51:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB I'm a bit surprised at how disturbed everyone is at kissing members of the same gender. I'm straight as a blade (have had sex with women before, so I know it for sure) but I'd kiss multiple women without an issue, as long as the women felt comfortable with me having no real sexual attraction to them (and it had no negative affect on whatever relationship I was in). Kissing is very intimate and very sexual, but women are hot, even if I'm not wired that way. Besides, I went to a theatre school for college. We played spin the bottle like it was our job. [:)] I suspect that alot of women who identify as "bi" think exactly like you, but the distinction isn't made. I pretty much wrote the same thing: as long as we're clear that it's only happening because they're good-looking... I should change to theatre though. [:D]

Shadow-tiger -> RE: Same-sex kissing (for straight subs) - limits and thoughts (9/1/2010 7:07:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Twoshoes quote: ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB I'm a bit surprised at how disturbed everyone is at kissing members of the same gender. I'm straight as a blade (have had sex with women before, so I know it for sure) but I'd kiss multiple women without an issue, as long as the women felt comfortable with me having no real sexual attraction to them (and it had no negative affect on whatever relationship I was in). Kissing is very intimate and very sexual, but women are hot, even if I'm not wired that way. Besides, I went to a theatre school for college. We played spin the bottle like it was our job. [:)] I suspect that alot of women who identify as "bi" think exactly like you, but the distinction isn't made. I pretty much wrote the same thing: as long as we're clear that it's only happening because they're good-looking... I should change to theatre though. [:D] snort Yeah, with that kind of incentive I don't blame ya. Between you n' me (n' the rest of the board) I'm taking notes. [;)] For me kissing can be all kinds of things, not just sexual. Affectionate, friendly, intimate, downright primal.. it depends on the person I'm kissing. With women who aren't family it's almost always something intimate, which can bloom into sexual. Though there's the cousins, sister in law, whatever. For them, just a peck, no tongue please. [8D] Now, as to kissing men.. I've done it before, and it was more like giving a hug, or showing affection than anything intimate. If I were to slip some guy the tongue it would likely be part of a devious plot to leave him all melted. Because yanno, I have that sadist streak in me. Sexually though, men just do nothing for me. I feel no worry that I'm going to suddenly lose my heterosexuality, it's just another form of touch.

Twoshoes -> RE: Same-sex kissing (for straight subs) - limits and thoughts (9/1/2010 7:42:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Shadow-tiger quote: ORIGINAL: Twoshoes I should change to theatre though. [:D] snort Yeah, with that kind of incentive I don't blame ya. Between you n' me (n' the rest of the board) I'm taking notes. [;)] Haha, yes, I thought the psych department was where all the intrapersonal experimentation occurs, but it isn't too late to sign up for a bit of acting.

Wolf2Bear -> RE: Same-sex kissing (for straight subs) - limits and thoughts (9/2/2010 1:35:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB I'm a bit surprised at how disturbed everyone is at kissing members of the same gender. I'm straight as a blade (have had sex with women before, so I know it for sure) but I'd kiss multiple women without an issue, as long as the women felt comfortable with me having no real sexual attraction to them (and it had no negative affect on whatever relationship I was in). Kissing is very intimate and very sexual, but women are hot, even if I'm not wired that way. Besides, I went to a theatre school for college. We played spin the bottle like it was our job. [:)] Mind you, it is also possible for two guys to kiss and kiss in a very intimate way which is not sexual, just in a very intimate sense. Not always a deep kiss with tongue leads to a sexual situation no matter how many people delude themselves into thinking. Yes I would intimately kiss a straight man though that would only occur if said straight man was fully comfortable with his sexuality and did not feel threatened by kissing another man.

Wolf2Bear -> RE: Same-sex kissing (for straight subs) - limits and thoughts (9/2/2010 1:43:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Shadow-tiger For me kissing can be all kinds of things, not just sexual. Affectionate, friendly, intimate, downright primal.. it depends on the person I'm kissing. With women who aren't family it's almost always something intimate, which can bloom into sexual. Though there's the cousins, sister in law, whatever. For them, just a peck, no tongue please. [8D] Hmmmmmm.........

sothernnyte -> RE: Same-sex kissing (for straight subs) - limits and thoughts (9/2/2010 1:59:48 PM)
heck, im a lesbian and i wouldnt consider kissing any and every woman. im a bit old fashion i guess. i dont think that would make me less submissive in my Mistress' eyes. in fact, She is probably more selective than i am and would expect no less from me. thank goodness.

pogo4pres -> RE: Same-sex kissing (for straight subs) - limits and thoughts (9/2/2010 2:09:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB I'm a bit surprised at how disturbed everyone is at kissing members of the same gender. I'm straight as a blade (have had sex with women before, so I know it for sure) but I'd kiss multiple women without an issue, as long as the women felt comfortable with me having no real sexual attraction to them (and it had no negative affect on whatever relationship I was in). Kissing is very intimate and very sexual, but women are hot, even if I'm not wired that way. Besides, I went to a theatre school for college. We played spin the bottle like it was our job. [:)] OK I'll open myself up a little here. I think the "squick" factor would depend on how much I could see being with the guy if I were a woman. Yeah I am one of those dudes that can look at another dude and think "if I were a woman......" In the case of that True Blood scene yeah it made me squirm, but, at the same time I saw the "hotness" of it, which added to the "squirm factor" I think. Overall I looked at it as two actors doing their job, which lessened that "squirm factor". On a side note that would make a hell of a torture, have the eyelids forced open (Like Alex and the droogs in "A Clockwork Orange"), and have to watch all the same sex (your sex obviously) kisses ever filmed. Now watch in a month or so Akasha will post a thread about how she did this ;-). Sexually, Some Knucklehead in NJ.

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Same-sex kissing (for straight subs) - limits and thoughts (9/2/2010 4:02:13 PM)
I'm perfectly willing to be wrong about this, but part of me suspects it might be a generation thing. The vast majority of girls in my social circle when I was at school would kiss other girls, and rather a lot of the boys would kiss other boys too-not as a sexual thing, exactly-more drunken affection than anything else. So I'm having difficulty understanding the vehemence of people's reactions on this thread-maybe my generation just views kissing as a less significant demonstration of sexuality, or something?

Drifa -> RE: Same-sex kissing (for straight subs) - limits and thoughts (9/2/2010 6:41:58 PM)
Honestly, the first time I kissed a girl was weird. But it was also the hottest thing ever. I seriously think women tend to kiss more sensuously. To this day, the hottest kissing scene in the movies is in Desert Hearts. Helen Shaver and Patricia Charbonneau are both straight. Shaver met her husband Steve Smith during the filming of the movie (he was a key grip) and Charbonneau was actually a couple of weeks pregnant at the time of filming. They approached the love scenes, including the kissing, not as a big "squick me" deal, but with an understanding about love and compassion. They've both said in interviews since that they saw it as a love story, and they just weren't focused on the same-sex nature of it.

DesFIP -> RE: Same-sex kissing (for straight subs) - limits and thoughts (9/2/2010 7:41:59 PM)
Akasha I would hard limit it because first, I wouldn't believe it would end there. I don't think a man would require this unless he thought to eventually be able to watch me have sex with other women. But also because there's no consent on the part of the other woman. Is he going to find a lesbian or bi woman and ask her if it's okay with her for me to be forced to kiss her when I didn't desire her, when I found the experience upsetting and I found her a total turn off? Because if he doesn't, and I don't know that he's laid it out just this bluntly, then she isn't consenting because she's being lied to. In which case, if he believes it's okay for him to lie to her, how can I believe he doesn't also lie to me? And if he is, in effect, ordering me to lie for him, then I don't feel I have to be honest with him either. Consent and honesty are like pregnancy, you can't just have a little bit. You are or you aren't.

AAkasha -> RE: Same-sex kissing (for straight subs) - limits and thoughts (9/2/2010 7:46:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP Akasha I would hard limit it because first, I wouldn't believe it would end there. I don't think a man would require this unless he thought to eventually be able to watch me have sex with other women. But also because there's no consent on the part of the other woman. Is he going to find a lesbian or bi woman and ask her if it's okay with her for me to be forced to kiss her when I didn't desire her, when I found the experience upsetting and I found her a total turn off? Because if he doesn't, and I don't know that he's laid it out just this bluntly, then she isn't consenting because she's being lied to. In which case, if he believes it's okay for him to lie to her, how can I believe he doesn't also lie to me? And if he is, in effect, ordering me to lie for him, then I don't feel I have to be honest with him either. Consent and honesty are like pregnancy, you can't just have a little bit. You are or you aren't. I don't know. I don't think it would be that hard to get someone to participate in a one time only kiss - at a fetish party, at a gay bar. People do random hook ups all the time. Am I the only one that experienced a lot of hot make out sessions with people in clubs or at parties only to never see them again - no harm, no foul? Akasha

AAkasha -> RE: Same-sex kissing (for straight subs) - limits and thoughts (9/2/2010 7:54:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious I'm perfectly willing to be wrong about this, but part of me suspects it might be a generation thing. The vast majority of girls in my social circle when I was at school would kiss other girls, and rather a lot of the boys would kiss other boys too-not as a sexual thing, exactly-more drunken affection than anything else. So I'm having difficulty understanding the vehemence of people's reactions on this thread-maybe my generation just views kissing as a less significant demonstration of sexuality, or something? I am with you on the head scratching, I am not sure how or why it seems to be such a big thing for many people; in another thread years ago, I believe it was the consensus that many men would suck another man's cock before he'd kiss another man on the mouth if told. What this tells me isn't that it's about sexual intimacy per se, but that a man will be willing to be "forced" to do something he already wants do to, but will not surrender to an act that makes him uncomfortable. Which is fine if that's his agenda -- but when we're talking about S&M and "submission," I have to wonder how conditional all this "submission" is. Do you not do things that you find "difficult" or "gross" or "scary" or simply "boring" -- or, do you only get "forced" to do things that you have an erotic fantasy about being forced to do? This isn't to you VC, this is my rhetorical question. I can recall a few times with fairly vanilla guys (I was into S&M, they were not, so they were learning, and they had no fantasies) and when "forced" (I should say..seduced, motivated by my arousal, motivated by their own arousal) they did things that were VERY against their very nature, their core. Like taking a phallic item in their mouth or being penetrated anally - men who NEVER fantasized about this kind of thing and would say "Oh my god NO, no way would I do that!" But when they realize how precious and intense submission and surrender is, it changes to "I would never do that for anyone but you...and it turns me on so much to get you so hot while I feel so objectified..." How do you know if a submissive just says things are limits because they don't get excited with the make believe aspect of being forced? That's what I am getting at, I guess. If your partner was extremely erotically aroused by something else you found unthinkable -- (trying to think of something random) -- like picking up a snail off the ground and licking it one time (on the gooey part). I mean I pick something arbitrary. Because for a 'vanilla' guy, sticking a dildo in his mouth or ass or wearing lingerie in front of a few girlfriends, is probably as weird, uncomfortable, unthinkable to him. This is all pretty confusing to me and I have no frame of reference as I've kissed girls, made out with girls, had guys make out with guys (who were not bi) and had totally vanilla guys sucking strap on cock under my "persuasion" and it was always hot all around. But getting submissive men to kiss other guys is always hard (even if they would suck another man's cock at a glory hole). Akasha

Twoshoes -> RE: Same-sex kissing (for straight subs) - limits and thoughts (9/2/2010 10:51:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious I'm perfectly willing to be wrong about this, but part of me suspects it might be a generation thing. The vast majority of girls in my social circle when I was at school would kiss other girls, and rather a lot of the boys would kiss other boys too-not as a sexual thing, exactly-more drunken affection than anything else. Good point. I'd like to add: Most of the people who responded affirmatively live in big (and probably liberal) metropolitan areas. I'm intuitively speculating that the affirmative replies are mostly coming from people with non-judgemental personality types. quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha I can recall a few times with fairly vanilla guys (I was into S&M, they were not, so they were learning, and they had no fantasies) and when "forced" (I should say..seduced, motivated by my arousal, motivated by their own arousal) they did things that were VERY against their very nature, their core. Like taking a phallic item in their mouth or being penetrated anally - men who NEVER fantasized about this kind of thing and would say "Oh my god NO, no way would I do that!" But when they realize how precious and intense submission and surrender is, it changes to "I would never do that for anyone but you...and it turns me on so much to get you so hot while I feel so objectified..." How do you know if a submissive just says things are limits because they don't get excited with the make believe aspect of being forced? That's what I am getting at, I guess. I'm not very sub-like; I have alot of strong opinions and ways I like things. But I did write that I first found out about BDSM through femdom fantasies when I was about 10. So with that in mind, here is my perspective: At the very least, objectification doesn't necessarily imply feminization. Feminization is what most of the things you wrote remind me of. I enjoy what mascuilinity I'm able to muster and I enjoy feeling it. Toying with that would be "emotional sadism" for me, because it would always take me to a very negative place. Some subs might like being "forced" or experiencing the fear/humiliation/degradation/objectification/anger/frustration that comes with emotional sadism. I liked Lady Angelika's Masculinisation Fantasy thread. You probably can't relate, but it is a complete turn off for me to have a woman use "phallic symbols", masculine behaviours and that sort of thing towards me. I'd prefer experiencing her femininity. You certainly don't need a strap-on to make someone gag and cry... This is similiar to how I wouldn't ever think to put on a high-heel shoe to stimulate a sub female or put on her lipstick to leave red marks on her skin. When you start thinking of things like that is when you know you've had a really dull day. quote: This is all pretty confusing to me and I have no frame of reference as I've kissed girls, made out with girls, had guys make out with guys (who were not bi) and had totally vanilla guys sucking strap on cock under my "persuasion" and it was always hot all around. But getting submissive men to kiss other guys is always hard (even if they would suck another man's cock at a glory hole). Persuasion... Alot of the people who replied affirmatively wanted to pick who they would be kissing themselves. Then again alot of them were Doms. [;)] I'm not your target audience, but I hope it was an interesting read.

Nineveh -> RE: Same-sex kissing (for straight subs) - limits and thoughts (9/3/2010 6:35:19 AM)
Straight Male Dom here. I am also an exhibitionist. If I can turn on a woman (or several women) by kissing a man, I'll do it. I don't care if he is gay, straight or bi. It will turn me on too, not because I am into kissing him, but because I know it is turning the ladies on.

wandersalone -> RE: Same-sex kissing (for straight subs) - limits and thoughts (9/3/2010 7:12:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder I'm a straight slave. I have zero interest in kissing another woman. Does nothing at all for me and I find it actually quite a gross thing to do but if Master required it of me then I would obey. Doesn't matter if I like it or not. It matters if he does. this

WestBaySlave -> RE: Same-sex kissing (for straight subs) - limits and thoughts (9/3/2010 7:54:45 AM)
Gay male here, but for me this as a limit has to do with not engaging in erotic activity with people outside the relationship, rather than their being male or female. I'm monogamous not just in terms of sex, but in terms of sexuality in general; including sexually intimate acts like mouth to mouth kissing.

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