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[Poll]

guilty or not guilty?


Guilty
  33% (5)
Not guilty
  13% (2)
Depends based upon documentation
  53% (8)


Total Votes : 15
(last vote on : 9/6/2010 7:27:56 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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guilty or not guilty? - 9/4/2010 2:59:43 AM   
StrangerThan


Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
Status: offline 		The first time I read this story, the blurb read dozens of late term fetuses. This version notes it at about 35.

Full story here

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100904/ap_on_re_us/us_abortion_doctors_suspended_2

I've been a long time supporter of abortion rights. I never bought into the its-my-body argument. Agreed it is, the life within however is not. I support them mostly because I became a parent at 16 and know full well how hard it is to crawl up from having absolutely nothing and starting at a point where I knew next to nothing about how life actually worked once you leave home. My girlfriend and I at the time never discussed abortion as an option even though we both supported the right. I don't find those two items at odds with each other because choice is what defines the debate. I think no matter which choice is made, for some it's easy, for others difficult. And mostly, I think those choices are none of my business. Regardless of what philosophy or religion one follows, when it comes to answering for choices we make either at a spiritual level or an emotional one, this is an area that bears a sense of ultimate responsibility in that what is felt is inherently personal. It's not like spilling coffee on your lap at McDonald's.

I'm not going to go hunt links and post polls. Shrug. If CM has taught me anything it is that a link exists to everything and regardless of its validity or veracity, it will be used to sideline the debate. Most polls I've seen however, have broad based support for the right itself but lose that support as the fetus ages. I'm not debating the right to an abortion. My question stems from the late-term fetus note in the story because for me, there is a point where the procedure crosses the line from abortion to murder. Granted, the story doesn't relate the reasons for them, and I do support life of the mother exceptions in late term abortions but I do believe there is a point where you're talking a life rather than a group of cells.

I understand the reasons for the life-begins-at-birth concept. The question for me is around the point where I and a lot of Americans lose support for the process. For many, that point is centered around viability, which, given the advance of medical science, is and will be a moving target. Currently it is around the 24th week, though some argue the tipping point is actually closer to the 22nd week. Justice Sandra Day O'Conner noted that very point in a decision where she said that Roe v Wade was on a collision course with itself, implying that medical science would continue to roll back viability.

I tend to think of things in terms of how I would respond on a jury. The story speaks of late-term, which implies these 35 were past the point of viability. The story also states some were started in one state, then transported to another to complete. The implication there is to avoid the laws of former. I don't know if that's the case or not, but that is the implication.

If documentation did not exist that based the procedure on health of the mother concerns, I would cast my vote in the guilty pool in terms of at least manslaughter with the assumption that late-term means past the point of viability.

And yes, I know viability does not ensure survivability and the odds are stacked against them. At some point life has to be recognized however. Where is it for you?

So you have three choices in terms of these 35. Guilty, not guilty, or verdict is based upon documentation.


< Message edited by StrangerThan -- 9/4/2010 3:02:25 AM >

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RE: guilty or not guilty? - 9/4/2010 11:16:28 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		To put all this into a medical perspective, OBGYNS wont even attempt to prevent a naturally occuring abortion before the 20th week in almost all cases. I say almost all cases because, depending on the attempts a woman has gone through to get pregnant and the Dr attending the woman, he may attempt it on a case by case basis, but they are very few and far between.

Viability age has been declining. Used to be 28 weeks when i started in L&D. Now i believe the age is down, in rare cases, to 22 weeks. However, at that age, there are so many complications its almost ill-advised, speaking medically. JAMA has reported that no brith is viable before 21 weeks and all births are viable after 27 weeks. So, thats the grey area.

quote:

United States: In 2003, from data collected in those areas that sufficiently reported gestational age, it was found that 6.2% of abortions were conducted from 13 to 15 weeks, 4.2% from 16 to 20 weeks, and 1.4% at or after 21 weeks.[13] Because the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's annual study on abortion statistics does not calculate the exact gestational age for abortions performed past the 20th week, there are no precise data for the number of abortions performed after viability.[13] In 1997, the Guttmacher Institute estimated the number of abortions in the U.S. past 24 weeks to be 0.08%, or approximately 1,032 per year.[14]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-term_abortion
^ Guttmacher Institute. (January 1997). The Limitations of U.S. Statistics on Abortion. Retrieved April 19, 2007.

Now, to the story you posted about.

These Drs, if you can call them that, are the fringe of the medical world. Not only have the violated their ethic codes, they have violated human life. Do no harm ... a phrase that means nothing to all three... there were 3 Drs, not two.

This was all about money.

How much do late term abortions cost?

How much does an abortion cost?
In 1995, the cost of an early abortion ranges from $200 to $400. Later term abortions cost approximately $400-700 between the 13th and 16th week; after that, the cost goes up about $100/week. The cost increases over time due to greater complications in the procedure. [Source: "Susan Dudley, Ph.D. "Economics of Abortion" National Abortion Federation 1996]

http://www.abortionisprolife.com/statistics.htm

For patients not covered by insurance, a surgical abortion in a doctor's office or a medical abortion at 10 weeks typically costs about $320 to $500. At 16 weeks, a surgical abortion costs about $500 to $700. At 20 weeks or later, a surgical abortion costs about $1,000 to $2,000 or more.

http://www.costhelper.com/cost/health/abortion.html

No telling what they charged these women for the "across state lines" abortion. Im sure that will eventually come out.

Here is a story about a late term abortion. How could i say no to this woman? The viability of one of the twins is definitely in question.

http://www.barryyeoman.com/articles/gina.html

I suppose, in essence, my choice of the above would be.. depending, which is where many of the Drs i worked with place it as well.

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RE: guilty or not guilty? - 9/5/2010 4:03:39 AM   
StrangerThan


Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
Status: offline
quote:

Here is a story about a late term abortion. How could i say no to this woman? The viability of one of the twins is definitely in question.

http://www.barryyeoman.com/articles/gina.html


Agreed.

Is it just me or is it beyond creepy to have a freezer full of fetuses? Maybe that's standard procedure. I don't know. Just seems out there somewhere between hitchcock and norman bates.





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RE: guilty or not guilty? - 9/5/2010 4:08:23 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Its extremely creepy, not to mention a direct violation of local, state and federal standards.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to StrangerThan)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: guilty or not guilty? - 9/5/2010 7:35:30 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		If they broke any laws or violated their oaths,they should be tossed and brought up on charges.If they hurt this woman or anyone else,they should be sued to the enth degree.

Keeping the fetuses is beyond creepy.There should be an investigation, on just that aspect.What were they doing with them?

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RE: guilty or not guilty? - 9/5/2010 7:45:44 AM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

To put all this into a medical perspective, OBGYNS wont even attempt to prevent a naturally occuring abortion before the 20th week in almost all cases. I say almost all cases because, depending on the attempts a woman has gone through to get pregnant and the Dr attending the woman, he may attempt it on a case by case basis, but they are very few and far between.



As someone that had to think about an abotion at a late stage, I think that it is screwed up.  If you are wondering about why I would have to consider that, you are welcome to CM me.  Other than that, I say "kill em all."  Assholes with freezers of babies do not need to exist. 

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RE: guilty or not guilty? - 9/5/2010 8:26:35 AM   
atursvcMaam


Posts: 1195
Joined: 5/10/2004
Status: offline 		   The first 2 paragraphs make them guilty.  One practicing without a license, the other on a suspended license.  Despite one's opinion on abortion, they should not be practicing without having corrected their license infractions.
  

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RE: guilty or not guilty? - 9/5/2010 9:21:02 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

To put all this into a medical perspective, OBGYNS wont even attempt to prevent a naturally occuring abortion before the 20th week in almost all cases. I say almost all cases because, depending on the attempts a woman has gone through to get pregnant and the Dr attending the woman, he may attempt it on a case by case basis, but they are very few and far between.



As someone that had to think about an abotion at a late stage, I think that it is screwed up.  If you are wondering about why I would have to consider that, you are welcome to CM me.  Other than that, I say "kill em all."  Assholes with freezers of babies do not need to exist. 


Im not quite sure what you disagree with. Any fetus less than 20 weeks cannot possibly survive out of utero.

If you are suggesting i support what these so called Drs have done, you may want to read my post a bit more carefully.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: guilty or not guilty? - 9/5/2010 9:24:14 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Riley had a license to practice. The article, in paragraph two, indicated it was suspended over this incident.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 9/5/2010 9:25:21 AM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to atursvcMaam)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: guilty or not guilty? - 9/5/2010 11:54:28 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		I'm with the evidence group in the poll, but to the broader question, I do buy into the, 'it's my body' argument and support abortion rights all the way up to the point where we can just adopt out a preemie.

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