RE: Internal Enslavement Vs Stockholm Syndrome

RE: Internal Enslavement Vs Stockholm Syndrome (Full Version)

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Surrenderwithin -> RE: Internal Enslavement Vs Stockholm Syndrome (9/5/2010 5:18:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kyraofMists quote: It occurs to me now that world of BDSM, specifically M/s, encourages and supports the idea of intentionally causing another person to develop a mental defect. They take a person who willingly submits their will and forces them to remain by removing their ability to leave and binding them with the chains of mental illness. It is a main goal within the realm of M/s and seen as being an accomplishment. A slave who reaches a state of " Internal Enslavement" is seen as having transcended basic slavery and being fully enslaved. Wow... I can appreciate that you are hurting and are probably wanting to view your past relationship in the most negative light as possible in order to distance yourself from it. However, painting M/s relationships with the broad negative brush is really sad. I am not a slave to him because I have a mental illness. I am a slave to him because I have no other natural response to him exercising authority. He has never sought to make me dependent on him for anything much less the 'basic necessities of life' and yet I can no more walk away from this relationship that he can. Our relationship fulfills all three of us in ways that we have no desire to have any other life. Internal enslavement is a result of who I am not a result of a mental defect he has contrived. Knight's Kyra Please allow me to clarify; I do not believe that ALL IE /TPE situations are like this. I am sure that there is a way to be able to meet the desire to surrender completely in a healthy fashion. I am happy for those who have attained it.

Surrenderwithin -> RE: Internal Enslavement Vs Stockholm Syndrome (9/5/2010 5:23:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists It is always sad when one sees a potential train wreck in the making but their is nothing one can do to stop it. It is as clear to me now as it was before that your understanding and beliefs of how to have a Healthy M/s dynamic is lacking. It is all the more unfortunate since it result in the train wreck that you find yourself in. I always find it amazing that people like to put things in stages when people are little more complex than that. In fact, it's more like a path with many lanes that you keep switch from lane to lane as you continue on your given path. I see much denial in your post and anger is rather obvious. Bargaining can also be stated as rationalizing and this is something you are doing in spades. Rationalizing why you made those choices. In fact, your rationalizing seems to be minimizing your own responsibilities on the train wreck you found yourself in. I have no doubt that you feel deeply saddened by what has happen in your life but lashing out at M/s dynamics as whole is not going to bring you to acceptance. But it sure to bring you to bitterment. yes.. my comments are harsh and many would see as heartless. But frankly, I see way to many that take paths that are ultimately dooms of failure regardless what common sense tells us. It is truly unfortunate what you have experienced and even more unfortunate that you are not alone with such an experience. It is equally complicated by the fact that this is not about weak people or even predators that cause such experiences to occur. Some very well meaning people on both sides of the coin find themselves in such train wrecks. I don't think we can point to one given cause to such train wrecks even though it seems to be the natural reaction to cast blame outward when things go badly. You imply that you are grieving... but what exactly is it that you are grieving? A lost to a bad relationship? Or is it something within yourself? Maybe it's more the grieving of a lost to realizing the expectations you had going into this relationship. I think when we realize that we don't have to give up our expecations of joy, happiness and love in a relationship we find hope for the future. The lost of a relationship is not the end of our dreams and hopes unless we choose it to be. We sit in a room lit by a light bulb because a man chose not to give up on his hopes and dreams even though he found many ways not to make a light bulb work. What matters is finding the one way to makes that light bulb work. KnightofMists, I would like to start by saying that I do not find you to be harsh or heartless at all. I much prefer open, honest, blunt, and direct communication that candy coated, kid glove talk. I appreciate your comments and observations. Now, on that note I would like to ask you a question: You stated," It is as clear to me now as it was before that your understanding and beliefs of how to have a Healthy M/s dynamic is lacking. " What I ask is this; since it appears to me that you saw my " train wreck coming" would you please give me specific examples of things I posted that gave you those warning signs and explain what/ how you saw it" You see, I am now focused on healing and trying to understand how I found myself where I did. Any insight you can give me will be helpful and appreciated. Thank you for your time, Maggi

Surrenderwithin -> RE: Internal Enslavement Vs Stockholm Syndrome (9/5/2010 5:24:34 PM)
ladyEternity, Thank you for your replies and for sharing your experiences with me. Maggi

Surrenderwithin -> RE: Internal Enslavement Vs Stockholm Syndrome (9/5/2010 5:31:09 PM)
quote: So is the point of this entire post an argument that you are not responsible for your failed relationship because you were internally enslaved which is just like Stockholm syndrome? Absolutely not the point. I take full responsibility for my part in the situation that my choices created. I am the one who chose to enter the relationship. I am the one that was willing to accept things that I should not have accepted for myself. I am the one who made the decision to stay and endure year after year. I am the one the subjected myself to the treatment that had such an impact on my mental state. I am the one who believed that I could not survive without him. I am the one who believed I was incapable of life after him or leaving. I am the one who was to weak to walk away for years even after I realized how unhealthy the situation was for me. ... I am also the one who in the end found the strength to recognize and accept my situation for what it was and did what I needed to do. Now, I am the one who owns the pain and the baggage and has to redefine my place in this world and rediscover who I am. I am the one who is doing the work to put this behind me and make a new life for myself. I am fully accountable for all of my actions and choices and choose to pursue my life now with eyes wide open. He however, is also fully accountable for his. Maggi

Surrenderwithin -> RE: Internal Enslavement Vs Stockholm Syndrome (9/5/2010 5:32:55 PM)
Nuebavida, Thanks for your kind words, and encouraging thoughts. Maggi

Zevar -> RE: Internal Enslavement Vs Stockholm Syndrome (9/5/2010 5:43:00 PM)
Greetings again Maggi: Here is a link for you to explore. http://counsellingresource.com/quizzes/stockholm/index.html I wish you the best in your journey. Take good care of you!

Surrenderwithin -> RE: Internal Enslavement Vs Stockholm Syndrome (9/5/2010 6:06:07 PM)
Zevar, Thank you. I just spent sometime reading that. I will save it as well. I am sure I will look back on it a few times. I appreciate it.

KnightofMists -> RE: Internal Enslavement Vs Stockholm Syndrome (9/5/2010 6:46:19 PM)
quote: I am the one who believed that I could not survive without him. I am the one who believed I was incapable of life after him or leaving. I think your own words here express what I saw as a root problem for so many that seem to enter into these relationships. Huge red flag when one presents a point of view that they can't survive without their Master. I suppose it's great for weaker ego Dominants to have their ego's puffed up by such thoughts from their partners. But... those words have an implication that is far from healthy in my view. I am sure that some find it rather romantic to consider them incapable of life after him or leaving him. But again the implications of such a thought is far from healthy. Are my Slaves capable of leaving me... you bet your ass they can... However, can they ever forsee that as being possible given everything they know at this moment in their life. No.. they don't see it as possible or even likely. I strongly believe in a person having the capacity to protect their internal boundaries for the sake of their personal well-being. In fact, I require that of my slaves in order for them to be completely safe within our relationship. As romantically wonderful I may appear to be in one moment. I am rather human and apparently that makes me capable of mistakes and such mistakes no matter how unlikely could result in threatening the well-being of my two girls. If they couldn't protect their boundaries... then it makes it all the more possible that I could harm their well-being... as unintentional as it maybe. No one can be more effective in protecting the well-being of another than what they could do for themself. When one seems to be surrendering that responsibility to another I see the risks increasing. My first directive to my girls is that they must protect their well-being even against myself. I see to many that find this type of directive to be a hinderance to the M/s dynamic they desire. I see it as neccessary to have a healthy enduring M/s relationship. Learn your boundaries to your well-being.... Learn to protect them... protect them.... and yes you can't have enslavement even while you have protected your boundaries..... many talk about the slaves limites becomes the Masters limits. To me the more accurate point is the Master's limits and slaves limits becomes the Relationship's limits. Total Authority doens't dictate without limits or boundaries. It just means the Master could if he so choose to disregard those boundaries and limits... but the consequences of those choices are on him... and I have yet to see a relationship last that disregarded those boundaries. The health and well being of my relationship is my first priority... in order to do that sucessful... I have to have my girls know and protect their boundaries. I saw you disgarding your responsibilities to protect your boundaries in the false belief that such is a danger to the m/s dynamic. I don't think you where consciously deciding to take such action. But.... a few times that I saw what you wrote... I saw the implications of your actions as bringing you to that point. Maybe that is why you feel decieved or even manipulated. To be honest... I suspect that your Ex was anymore aware of the path that you two were going on than you might of been. It seem to be the pop wisdom for the Slave to abandon their boundaries, responsibilities and Master is responsible for all. It seems I am one of the few that is rather against this line of thinking.... regardless how many times the train falls off the track.

Surrenderwithin -> RE: Internal Enslavement Vs Stockholm Syndrome (9/5/2010 7:05:38 PM)
KnightofMists, Thank you for that answer. It clarifies a few things for me and I appreciate the time you took to explain your perpective to me. The funny thing is the prime directive in my TPE was" It is my responsibility to be a good care taker of his property. I am to take whatever steps are needed to ensure my own welfare and well being in every capacity including but not limited to " Mentally, emotionally, spiritually, physically, morally, ethically, and socially" This includes to being it to his attention immediatly if I cannot follow an order because it would endanger me in one of these ways"..... I realize now that I failed in this. I take a great deal of accountability in that, however at some point in the relationship I realized ( ror maybe decided for him) that he did not really mean that prime directive. Actions speak louder than words, and I could not handle the disappointment, or anger, he projected when I invoked the prime directive ( all of twice in nearly 13 years). I quickly " learned" that my emotions and feelings were simply not important or acceptable and I was not entitled to those feelings. I was only allowed to express emotions that he valued as being positive. I have since come to understand that there is no such thing as a positive or negative emotion really. Emotions and feelings are neither good nor bad, rather what we do with them. Anyhow, thank you for your feedback. Maggi

daddysprop247 -> RE: Internal Enslavement Vs Stockholm Syndrome (9/5/2010 7:42:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists quote: I am the one who believed that I could not survive without him. I am the one who believed I was incapable of life after him or leaving. I think your own words here express what I saw as a root problem for so many that seem to enter into these relationships. Huge red flag when one presents a point of view that they can't survive without their Master. I suppose it's great for weaker ego Dominants to have their ego's puffed up by such thoughts from their partners. But... those words have an implication that is far from healthy in my view. I am sure that some find it rather romantic to consider them incapable of life after him or leaving him. But again the implications of such a thought is far from healthy.... hi KnightofMists, while i understand and respect your p.o.v. on this, i must speak up and point out two simple things: what is and what is not "healthy" is very subjective; and an environment that is fatally damaging to some may be enriching and life-giving for others. i am not one who finds it especially romantic to be incapable of going on with life without my Master. for me it is just reality due to the overwhelming dependency i have developed on him. He finds this reality both endearing and frightening. and truth be told as the years fly by, his fear and concern for me grows. yet at the same time it would break his heart if i did not need him to such an extent. it's just one of those things in life where you must accept the pain along with the joy. my Master is not one of those who has given me some directive to protect self above all else. He feels that to be his responsibility alone, and takes on the full weight of that burden. He accepts the consequences of the inevitable moments when this protection falls short, especially so when it is himself he has failed to protect me from. this does not leave me with no responsibility, far from it...but my responsibilities begin and end with serving him. sounds very simple, but of course is far from it. anyway...just wanted to express that for some like myself, it is more about an acceptance of self than some vague desire to live out some M/s fairy tale. yes, i would quickly wither and die without him. so what, what does that matter? if not for him, if not for being his property, i never would have had the chance to LIVE at all.

Zevar -> RE: Internal Enslavement Vs Stockholm Syndrome (9/5/2010 8:44:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Surrenderwithin Zevar, Thank you. I just spent sometime reading that. I will save it as well. I am sure I will look back on it a few times. I appreciate it. You are quite welcome, Maggi. http://www.e-water.net/viewflash.php?flash=irishblessing_en A Good Evening to you! Take good care of you!

exploringsiren -> RE: Internal Enslavement Vs Stockholm Syndrome (9/5/2010 8:52:49 PM)
quote: Of course it is a result of the negative things that were occuring in my TPE, otherwise I never would have arrived at the conclusions that I have. However, I geralize it because I see the same types of things happening in most other IE/ TPE situations I have observed or read about. You can't generalize here. You don't know 'most' IE/TPE situations. It's a failed leap of logic.

gungadin09 -> RE: Internal Enslavement Vs Stockholm Syndrome (9/5/2010 10:14:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Surrenderwithin The slave comes to think of their very life being a gift from the Master and seeing him as having the right to revoke that right. The slave comes to rely on their owner for the very basic necessities in life. i have never felt submission to this degree. i have never felt gratitude to Someone for "the gift of life". i don't know whether to admire your devotion or criticise your common sense. i have felt obsessive devotion, but never so strongly that i felt Someone had the right to take my life if they wanted to. It occurs to me now that world of BDSM, specifically M/s, encourages and supports the idea of intentionally causing another person to develop a mental defect. They take a person who willingly submits their will and forces them to remain by removing their ability to leave and binding them with the chains of mental illness. i'm not very experienced, but i disagree that this is what the M/s relationship is supposed to be like. i don't think you should judge the whole community off of one bad relationship. i'm sure there are Masters who try to emotionally criple their slaves, but it's not every Master, not "the world of BDSM". You just had the misfortune of dealing with one very unscrupulous person. i do think that the M/s relationship encourages a slave to feel need for their Master, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. i would argue that all love is based on attachment and need. It can be a healthy thing, i think, this "needing" another person, as long as you don't get too carried away. The danger is needing them too much, to the point where is becomes an addiction; where you think you can't live without them. i've been there, and you're right. It's a very dangerous place. Hatred swirled within me and reason and logic were not to be found. Yes, exactly. Hope you're doing better now. Little by little, life does return to "normal", if you can believe it. Good luck. pam ~ Maggi

dreamerdreaming -> RE: Internal Enslavement Vs Stockholm Syndrome (9/6/2010 1:50:10 AM)
{{{BIG HUG}}}

allthatjaz -> RE: Internal Enslavement Vs Stockholm Syndrome (9/6/2010 1:58:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist Firstly, how the hell can you equate Stockholm syndrome to anything that is consensual? You obviously do not know the mechanics of Stockholm syndrome which is triggered by the unpredictable or irrational behavior of an abusive captor in a non-consensual environment, where the captive gets feelings of love or adulation when they mistake their lack of abuse for affection. I think you have an over active imagination. You couldn't be more wrong. http://www.womensaccounts.com/loving_an_abuser_stockholm_syndrome.html http://counsellingresource.com/quizzes/stockholm/ Stockholm Syndrome is a very real condition in controlling and abusive relationships and for children who have been brought up by an abusive parent. A child who has suffered Stockholm Syndrome may subconsciously follow a pattern throughout his/her life. Every therapist worth their salt will tell a patient who has this trait, that this pattern is one of the hardest things to break and will always be in the habit of sneaking back up on them when are least aware. I think threads like this are vitally important. I rarely come to these forums now because they seem to be full of fairly useless information. I think there are a good few submissives out there that are suffering from this condition and that is why I think this thread should be read, considered and taken seriously. There are obviously many healthy relationships where this sort of condition has no bearing whatsoever but I am certain that some people will read this thread and recognize themselves in Surrenderwithin's words. These very words could be the alarm clock needed to get out and get help. This thread touched a raw nerve for me. I wanted to reply and keep it impersonal but on reading some of the blamefull comments I can't do that. My ex was such a manipulator of the heart. That combination of nasty but nice was disturbingly attractive... WHY? This wasn't about dominance and submission, this was about abuse, about making someone feel useless, ugly, worthless and then tenderly kissing her wounds. Why did I allow this to go on? Why did this become an unhealthy addiction? Why did I stand up and staunchly protect him when my friends and my family showed their disgust? Actually I know exactly why. Buried deep in my subconscious lay a trigger. This had happened to me before, long ago. It was a safe place, a place of trust and admiration. An unrecognized scar that had never healed. I am not saying that this sort of condition has to start in childhood. I only have to look at my mum and the years of happy abuse she endured to know that's not true. Her childhood was idyllic with two loving parents and so her addiction for abuse was build on a slow steady manipulation within her adult years. Stockholm Syndrome in its broader sense comes from an emotional bonding to an abuser who also shows them acts of kindness.

exploringsiren -> RE: Internal Enslavement Vs Stockholm Syndrome (9/6/2010 7:40:27 AM)
Yes, Stockholm Syndrome and abuse exist, it is a sad fact of life, and it is very important to discuss these issues . However, the OP's assertion of: quote: It occurs to me now that world of BDSM, specifically M/s, encourages and supports the idea of intentionally causing another person to develop a mental defect. They take a person who willingly submits their will and forces them to remain by removing their ability to leave and binding them with the chains of mental illness. It is a main goal within the realm of M/s and seen as being an accomplishment. A slave who reaches a state of " Internal Enslavement" is seen as having transcended basic slavery and being fully enslaved. This assertion/claim is what I think needs to be addressed/challenged in the OP is that M/s encourages and supports the idea that a person should/needs to develop a mental defect in order to serve.

allthatjaz -> RE: Internal Enslavement Vs Stockholm Syndrome (9/6/2010 8:22:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: exploringsiren Yes, Stockholm Syndrome and abuse exist, it is a sad fact of life, and it is very important to discuss these issues . However, the OP's assertion of: quote: It occurs to me now that world of BDSM, specifically M/s, encourages and supports the idea of intentionally causing another person to develop a mental defect. They take a person who willingly submits their will and forces them to remain by removing their ability to leave and binding them with the chains of mental illness. It is a main goal within the realm of M/s and seen as being an accomplishment. A slave who reaches a state of " Internal Enslavement" is seen as having transcended basic slavery and being fully enslaved. This assertion/claim is what I think needs to be addressed/challenged in the OP is that M/s encourages and supports the idea that a person should/needs to develop a mental defect in order to serve. I strongly disagree with this part of her post too. Women with personality traits that point towards a possible past history of Stockholm Syndrome, will often be on the lookout for a 'treat them mean to keep them keen' sort of bloke. She could look for that in the vanilla world or she could well look out for it within the BDSM world but wherever she looks she will need more reality than what the average dominant can give her. I go to another site where you can make your own forums page. There is one called 'Extreme Violence' Its a very popular forum and women and men share their interest in things like, being punched full force in the face or having their limbs broken. A bog standard dominant wouldn't survive a minute with people like this. These people are openly looking for cold hearted, sadistic abusers. Then we get the sub female/male that is just well into this lifestyle. She/he ends up being coerced into a world of love and a world of abuse. Jesus christ her head must be spinning... I mean, whats real, what isn't? In some ways she loves the mix but in other ways she's frightened and fighting with her conscience. What a confusing place to be. I think this is where the op ended up, in a world full of confusing emotions. There is only one person we can blame in such a situation and that is the abuser. Of course BDSM is nothing to do with abuse. Abuse has reached well outside the boundaries of BDSM and there is no longer a relationship between the two. I also don't believe that an abusive person is any more likely to find a woman he/she can abuse within this lifestyle than a woman outside of this lifestyle. Dominant does not = abuser. Abuser = Abuser

exploringsiren -> RE: Internal Enslavement Vs Stockholm Syndrome (9/6/2010 8:37:57 AM)
quote: Of course BDSM is nothing to do with abuse. Abuse has reached well outside the boundaries of BDSM and there is no longer a relationship between the two. I also don't believe that an abusive person is any more likely to find a woman he/she can abuse within this lifestyle than a woman outside of this lifestyle. Dominant does not = abuser. Abuser = Abuser Very well stated, and yes, as you said above, abuse needs to be discussed and out in the open.

NuevaVida -> RE: Internal Enslavement Vs Stockholm Syndrome (9/6/2010 12:28:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists I am sure that some find it rather romantic to consider them incapable of life after him or leaving him. But again the implications of such a thought is far from healthy. As you know, there was a time I disagreed with your words above. Time and experience behind me, I feel exactly as you do now, and have aligned myself with someone who feels the same. It's a nice concept - maybe even not "romantic" - but when reality hits, and one finds her/himself without the master, the concept isn't so nice after all. As one who had to decide whether to rise up and overcome or give up and....what - - become a waste of human? I can only say that rising up after living that notion was quite a trek. But a necessary one. And one I will not cause myself to repeat. quote: many talk about the slaves limites becomes the Masters limits. To me the more accurate point is the Master's limits and slaves limits becomes the Relationship's limits. Total Authority doens't dictate without limits or boundaries. It just means the Master could if he so choose to disregard those boundaries and limits... but the consequences of those choices are on him... and I have yet to see a relationship last that disregarded those boundaries. The health and well being of my relationship is my first priority... in order to do that sucessful... I have to have my girls know and protect their boundaries. I love this. I'm going to share this with Mr. Man, in fact, because I think he'd agree wholeheartedly. I haven't seen it put this way before, but it makes perfect sense.

juliaoceania -> RE: Internal Enslavement Vs Stockholm Syndrome (9/6/2010 12:44:09 PM)
Surrenderwithin, I think you mistake battered woman's syndrome with Stockholm Syndrome... Women often stay in situations they feel unable to leave that are bad for them emotionally, in which a man has manipulated them to make them needy. A man who is abusive will isolate a woman, control her with his anger. My ex husband was physically violent with me, less so emotionally than physically. I have also been involved with men that were manipulative, who attempted to isolate me, and attempted to control me with anger and disapproval. Something happens within a woman that tolerates those behaviors. If I were you I would seek help and find someone to talk to, a wise friend, a religious figure, or a therapist... someone that can help you process what has happened to you, because it may not be M/s that has caused these things, but being in a relationship that was damaging to you emotionally. People have different needs, different ways of interpreting their experiences, etc. What one person finds an unhealthy situation, another will thrive... Good luck to you

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