RE: The good times never last

RE: The good times never last (Full Version)

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Lockit -> RE: The good times never last (9/19/2010 2:40:54 PM)
So what will you do to help these poor men so mistreated and judged? Sit behind a computer doing nothing but pointing out the hypocrisy of others or get off your ass and do something productive about it? Put your money where you mouth is...

sexyred1 -> RE: The good times never last (9/19/2010 2:43:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB WhiptheHip, I'm relieved that there are so many people with sense on this thread and that I don't have to say everything I'd like to say to you. The gist is this: I wouldn't get within 100 feet of you without an armed guard. Your moral barometer is malfunctioning. You're the type of person who ensures domestic violence and rape frequently go unpunished, because you think being able to walk out the door is all there is to it. Part of me is thinking that you're defending this so violently because you would like to do it to a girl yourself. The rest of me thinks that you're just misguided, and not able to see two inches past your face. I would encourage you to look around you at those who disagree with you...we're all active participants in the BDSM lifestyle, and yet we all seem to be able to separate that from what happened with this girl. You need to perhaps do some self reflecting about what it is you think BDSM is, because all that shit is not a part of it. You are being far too nice. These posts have to be some of the most abysmally stupid and deluded posts I have ever seen. The rampant paranoia, restructuring reality to suit his own warped views and constant need to assume that those into BDSM do the same things that constitute crimes, boggles the mind. The most alarming thing here is the constant defense that those into the lifestyle practice some of the acts commited and that makes it alright. Obviously, he has never had a moment's thought on the notion of using correct judgement, not indulging every freaking fantasy that one has, being abusive and going too far. The most frightening human beings on the planet are those who remain staunchly black and white rather than understanding the vastness of the grey area.

Shoshone -> RE: The good times never last (9/19/2010 2:51:48 PM)
quote: WhiptheHip, I'm relieved that there are so many people with sense on this thread and that I don't have to say everything I'd like to say to you. The gist is this: I wouldn't get within 100 feet of you without an armed guard. Your moral barometer is malfunctioning. You're the type of person who ensures domestic violence and rape frequently go unpunished, because you think being able to walk out the door is all there is to it. Part of me is thinking that you're defending this so violently because you would like to do it to a girl yourself. The rest of me thinks that you're just misguided, and not able to see two inches past your face. I would encourage you to look around you at those who disagree with you...we're all active participants in the BDSM lifestyle, and yet we all seem to be able to separate that from what happened with this girl. You need to perhaps do some self reflecting about what it is you think BDSM is, because all that shit is not a part of it. I don't see anything in Whips post that indicates that he approves of exploiting underage girls and forcing them into sexual slavery. I think we can all agree that this type of thing should never happen to anyone of either gender or even to adults. EVER! But what Whip and I are saying is that the allegations don't add up. That there are major flaws in this case which is probably why the details have been publicized. Why try a weak case in court when you can try it in the court of public opinion? To attack Whip's personal character for being an advocate for truth and trying to argue a more reasoned and rational approach to this case is unfair. It is the typical shaming language used by people who want to get their way even when they are wrong. The mob mentality expressed on this thread is the very same mentality that got hundreds of black men in the South lynched. Lynched because someone said they raped a white woman when in reality it was almost always consensual. They didn't want to hear it and neither do you all. I feel sorry for you.

Shoshone -> RE: The good times never last (9/19/2010 2:56:31 PM)
quote: The most alarming thing here is the constant defense that those into the lifestyle practice some of the acts commited and that makes it alright. I'm interested to know what activities these men are charged with are NOT part of BDSM. quote: Obviously, he has never had a moment's thought on the notion of using correct judgement, not indulging every freaking fantasy that one has, being abusive and going too far. Yes! And there is NO ONE on this site wanting to "indulge in every freaking fantasy that one has". quote: The most frightening human beings on the planet are those who remain staunchly black and white rather than understanding the vastness of the grey area. You realized you just described yourself don't you? The insistence that these men are guilty because they have been accused is clearly black and white. It is Whip and I who are pointing out that things are grey. Hilarious!

BonesFromAsh -> RE: The good times never last (9/19/2010 2:59:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Shoshone First there is no allegation of sex with a minor. NONE. So why you guys keep making up crimes is beyond me. If you guys are doing it then you can guarantee that some federal agent with his career on the line will do it too. Please see post #56 or choose to continue to avoid acknowledging #4 on page 7 of the indictment.

Lockit -> RE: The good times never last (9/19/2010 3:03:43 PM)
Talk, talk, talk... what are the enlightened one's going to do about this injustice? Talk, talk, talk... If you believe in something you do something about it. If not... you talk, talk, talk. Address my posts on good master or bad master, bdsm or abuse. Trumped up charges... whatever... your words mean nothing. It's in your actions and you better believe if I believed they were innocent and being railroaded... and cared as much as a few of you seem to... I would be doing far more than debating it online. Believe in what you say... do something about it. You can bet I will be contributing more than talk, talk, talk. And if anyone needs the link to help... I can get it to you. But since our little Girl Part's has broken mommy's water... I'm thinking I won't be here to respond to email or anything on this thread... but don't really expect anything on the thread to respond to because none of you fighting the cause will address even the bdsm aspect of it all. So fuck it... I am off to go be a new granny one more time. ta ta

sexyred1 -> RE: The good times never last (9/19/2010 3:08:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Shoshone quote: The most alarming thing here is the constant defense that those into the lifestyle practice some of the acts commited and that makes it alright. I'm interested to know what activities these men are charged with are NOT part of BDSM. It does not matter what specific acts are being discussed, the only thing that matters is whether they caused extreme damage, were done without consent or were done with consent made with extreme lack of judgement. quote: Obviously, he has never had a moment's thought on the notion of using correct judgement, not indulging every freaking fantasy that one has, being abusive and going too far. Yes! And there is NO ONE on this site wanting to "indulge in every freaking fantasy that one has". Again, you are not getting the point. Using consensual BDSM acts among healthy adults in highly functional relationship as a defense against displaying depraved indifference to whether an indulged act should or should not be indulged in, is beyond ludicrous. quote: The most frightening human beings on the planet are those who remain staunchly black and white rather than understanding the vastness of the grey area. You realized you just described yourself don't you? The insistence that these men are guilty because they have been accused is clearly black and white. You are being idiotic. I did not describe myself. I made a comment about a particular topic. I did not say anyone was guilty as I am not sitting on a jury hearing all testimony. You did not listen. I SAID that I was commenting on the other poster's rabid insistence that law enforcement makes this shit up and how he kept alluding to everyone into BDSM makes extremely dangerous behavior with no thought of consequences, ok. It is Whip and I who are pointing out that things are grey. *No, you are agreeing with the other poster in that it is ok to not use good judgement in engaging in behaviors with those who may or may not be able to offer sound consent.* Hilarious! *I disagree; I could not find the discussion less hilarious and if you think it is; then you are as stupid as the other poster.* *Both you and he are not listening to what the others are saying and I will not repeat it again, since I cannot educate anyone with such extreme density.*

jujubeeMB -> RE: The good times never last (9/19/2010 3:09:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Shoshone First there is no allegation of sex with a minor. NONE. So why you guys keep making up crimes is beyond me. quote: ORIGINAL: Shoshone The mob mentality expressed on this thread is the very same mentality that got hundreds of black men in the South lynched. Lynched because someone said they raped a white woman when in reality it was almost always consensual. Minors. Cannot. Consent. Read the indictment: D. Overt Acts, 5: "Between on or about December 2002 to and including February 2004, Defendant Edward Bagley, Sr. sexually abused FV repeatedly while she was still a minor." And really? We're comparing sexual sadists to black men getting lynched? Next you'll be comparing them to Jews in the Holocaust. THAT'S the type of arguing people do when they want to get their way even though they are wrong.

sexyred1 -> RE: The good times never last (9/19/2010 3:14:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Shoshone Those men have their own battle to fight. I'm not on here because I have a personal stake in their fate. Our culture regularly disposes of men for the most arbitrary and capricious of reasons. Nothing I can do will ever change that. However, my goal here, is to point out the hypocrisy of some of the opinions being stated here. All of the allegations made so far are BDSM activities of some sort. So if these men can be charged then so can any of us. I think that point should resonate with the self-preservationist side of the human psyche. I'm puzzled why so far it hasn't. Most people ignored Noah too. I think the bolded parts above say it all. When people start to identify with criminal behavior to support their own frustrations, that is when you stop listening. Just curious, how does our culture dispose of men for the most capricious and arbitrary of reasons? This should be good.

Shoshone -> RE: The good times never last (9/19/2010 3:15:53 PM)
quote: Please see post #56 or choose to continue to avoid acknowledging #4 on page 7 of the indictment. Interesting. Now it makes more sense. They probably aren't charging them with statutory crimes because the statute of limitations has run out. But they can charge them with conspiracy and add on a bunch of other charges to make up for it. This part of the indictment actually confirms what I suspected earlier. The prosecutors are on a crusade to punish Bagley because they can't get him on statutory charges. So they will pile on everything else and make it look like conspiracy. Whatever. Their goose is cooked. But so is all of yours should some zealous prosecutor decide to make a career on any of your sexual activities.

BonesFromAsh -> RE: The good times never last (9/19/2010 3:21:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Shoshone Whatever. Their goose is cooked. But so is all of yours should some zealous prosecutor decide to make a career on any of your sexual activities. My sexual activities don't include minors.

jujubeeMB -> RE: The good times never last (9/19/2010 3:31:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Shoshone They probably aren't charging them with statutory crimes because the statute of limitations has run out. But they can charge them with conspiracy and add on a bunch of other charges to make up for it. This part of the indictment actually confirms what I suspected earlier. The prosecutors are on a crusade to punish Bagley because they can't get him on statutory charges. So they will pile on everything else and make it look like conspiracy. Lol. You are unbelievable, dude. You finally acknowledge that you didn't read the indictment and have been arguing something that was wrong and and now you're trying to make up another story about the prosecutors being on a crusade. Here's the deal: all we have to go on is in that indictment. Whether it's all true or false is TBD in court. But you making up fictional crusading prosecutors does not pertain. quote: ORIGINAL: Shoshone Whatever. Their goose is cooked. But so is all of yours should some zealous prosecutor decide to make a career on any of your sexual activities. Wrong again. I don't consent to being sold to other men, or involving a minor of any kind. And I only play with Doms with brains and hearts.

angelikaJ -> RE: The good times never last (9/19/2010 3:33:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Shoshone <i>There are a few issues here, BDSM activities witholding....such as consent, the sale of a human being for profit and the girls age. If you read the report, they sold her for cigarettes, meat, tapes, and cash. Hospital records will show she was admitted, and for what. They have the proof, why would you think otherwise? </i> These activities fall under sexual humiliation--BDSM. <i>I'll give you the fact some of what was practiced under the guise of BDSM could be explained away, but I don't foresee attempted murder, sex with a minor or human trafficking as being so easy to gloss over. </i> First there is no allegation of sex with a minor. NONE. So why you guys keep making up crimes is beyond me. If you guys are doing it then you can guarantee that some federal agent with his career on the line will do it too. Those men have their own battle to fight. I'm not on here because I have a personal stake in their fate. Our culture regularly disposes of men for the most arbitrary and capricious of reasons. Nothing I can do will ever change that. However, my goal here, is to point out the hypocrisy of some of the opinions being stated here. All of the allegations made so far are BDSM activities of some sort. So if these men can be charged then so can any of us. I think that point should resonate with the self-preservationist side of the human psyche. I'm puzzled why so far it hasn't. Most people ignored Noah too. Regarding sex with a minor, I don't know what the parameters would be to be to make having sex with a minor a federal crime unless she was taken across state lines. However, there is mention within the indictment that he did have sex with her as a minor: "Between on or about December 2002 to and including February 2004, Defendant, Edward Bagley Sr, sexually abused FV repeatedly while she was still a minor." Page 7 of the indictment; Under D Overt Acts #4 This is a Federal case. It will vary a lot from state cases. The federal charges will be different. The point has been made that much of what we do is illegal and LadyPact has already eloquently acknowledged that, so I don't think it is fair to say it is being ignored. I am not going to paint either Shoshone or WhiptheHip as villians as I don't think having a difference in opinion and being willing to point out the greys makes them one. Also I would like to note that WhiptheHip has said he does not believe in edge play. (For those who have been making him out to be a monsterous sadist.) Neither does it serve any real purpose to paint those of us who believe differently as unjust. Having said that, I don't believe it serves "the community" at all to be so divisive. This discussion has turned very ugly and the ugliness is on both sides. I had very personal reasons for staying away; and sadly my reasons have shifted. edit: add link and for clarity and spelling

Twoshoes -> RE: The good times never last (9/19/2010 3:43:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Shoshone To think that a person who's on her own and rejecting all other authority figures isn't going to do exactly what she wants to do is ridiculous. What a minor wants isn't necessarily what is best for their well being. That's why they need a guardian unless they are granted emancipation. You don't have to convince me to be unbiased; I feel empathy for everyone. I'm quite nonjudgmental and everything is grey to me. I probably shoulda been a therapist, but I hate routine. I haven't concluded anything in this case besides a lack of common sense. : ) However, if you were asking me for a counter argument, here you go [;)]: Providing food and shelter to a minor makes you de facto guardian which makes it wrong to have a sexual relationship with them. ("Sexual misconduct" charge) This voids consent given to anything of a sexual nature from that point on. P.S. Thank you for writing your posts clearer than WhipTheHip.

jujubeeMB -> RE: The good times never last (9/19/2010 4:37:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ I am not going to paint either Shoshone or WhiptheHip as villians as I don't think having a difference in opinion and being willing to point out the greys makes them one. Also I would like to note that WhiptheHip has said he does not believe in edge play. (For those who have been making him out to be a monsterous sadist.) Neither does it serve any real purpose to paint those of us who believe differently as unjust. Having said that, I don't believe it serves "the community" at all to be so divisive. This discussion has turned very ugly and the ugliness is on both sides. In telling him to check his moral barometer I wasn't implying that WhiptheHip was a monstrous sadist, I was referring to his frequent attempts to justify various types of statutory rape as being "better than" the alternatives. I'm pretty sure we can all agree - as a community - that statutory rape is just plain wrong, and should be legally punished. Those who can see the "gray" in that are not acting in the best interests of the BDSM community AT ALL. I also have a problem with anyone who says multiple times that someone who is able to walk out the door and doesn't isn't being abused. It's the classic argument against domestic violence, and whether or not the girl in this case was consenting (which I don't believe is possible for a minor to do), it's an argument that needs to be addressed. That said, I agree with you that this thread is quite ugly, though I believe it was ugly from the second it started. How could it not be, when there is dissent over something like this?

WhipTheHip -> RE: The good times never last (9/19/2010 5:20:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB WhiptheHip, I'm relieved that there are so many people with sense on this thread and that I don't have to say everything I'd like to say to you. The gist is this: I wouldn't get within 100 feet of you without an armed guard. Then you are clearly a fool. I have never hurt anyone in my entire life. I am completely non-violent, unable to protect myself and others I care for. I am not an edge player. I dont think edge play is sane. I would make edge play unlawful, if I could, along with most piercings. I am squeamish and faint at the sight of blood. I have never struck a male or female in my life. Even as a child I ran away from fights, and did not fight back when I was attacked, My strength has always been in my brain, not my brawn. My battlefield of choice is a chess, Scrabble, or Go board, and my weopon of choice are my words. Sewing vaginas shut and skewering breasts squik me. I dont believe in breakng the skin or drawing blood. I dont beleive sharp objects produce eortic pain. I have no problem with punishing those guilty of domestic violence or real rape. I just dont see strong evidence here of domestic violence or real rape. No one is accusing this guy of punching her, giving her a black eye, breaking her ribs, giving her fat lip. I have helped a lot of females in domestic violence situations, and this does not resemble a domestic violence situation. If this guy was physically abusive, he would have punched her, cracked her ribs, given her a black eye, black and blue marks on her arms and body. All that shit is part of BDSM as I have seen it practiced. I know Doms who sew the vaginas of their subs shut, and skewer their breasts with knitting needles, and shock them with electrical devices. Ive been into BDSM before you were born.

Twoshoes -> RE: The good times never last (9/19/2010 5:20:42 PM)
Keep in mind that: Nothing posted in this thread has any influence on what has happened or will happen in this case. I am pretty annoyed at the fact that I couldn't make myself not reply to this thread. [:)] Lame~sauce. Edit: And I forgot "a" in my last post.

WhipTheHip -> RE: The good times never last (9/19/2010 5:32:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lockit Okay, let's say this girl consented to a lot that went on and had the emotional and mental wherewithal to consent. At some point she didn't consent and begged for them/him to stop, which they/he didn't. The one guy who was her master sewed her up She had no complaints about this guy sewing her up. She did not use her safe word to stop it. "[he] caused her to go into cardiac arrest. She begged them/him to stop... she safe worded... yet she almost died and great risk to her health in all manners was taken." Her going into cardiac arrest was an accident. He took her to the hospital and saved her life. "Good master or bad master? Stupid master or smart master?" The guy was a bad guy, a dumb guy, and no master. That does not mean he deserves to spend the rest of his life in prison for crimes he did not commit. Let them charge him for what he did do in violation of the law, not for what he didn't do, or what she consented to have him do when she was an adult. That is all I care about. And the others, they should go free. "An abusive one that doesn't care for her well being" There is no evidence that he was abusive and didn't care for her well being. Many people will testify they had a loving relationship, and he did care for her well-being. Subs sometimes land in emergency rooms for accidents that resulted from their own actions. Just because an elecric scene goes bad does not mean the master is abusive or doesn't care. It just means you have a master who does not understand the principles of electricty, the protocols of electric play. "If someone sewed up my urinary hole" He didn't sew up her urinary hole. Don't you know the difference between your vagina and your urerthra. I guess not, that is why we are having this discussion.

ModTwentyOne -> RE: The good times never last (9/19/2010 5:44:01 PM)
The discussion is over.

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