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We come in peace... - 9/10/2010 7:32:34 AM   
AlwaysLisa


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Status: offline 		After reading through several verses of the Quran and then looking up some of the Old Testament, both have quite a bit of violence and acts of cruelty within the pages.

They are equal when it comes to their key audience, men.   Both have men as the leading force, main character if you will...pretty heavily condeming homesexualilty or even those who are Bi, (however the Quran does mention youthful men quite a bit "servicing" dark haired virgins).   Women are not placed on a pedestal in either book.  

Both speak of slaughtering infidels or non believers in the chosen God (or Allah). 

Point is, you can find quotes that support or decry much about the same issues in both books...so why is one the work of evil and the other revered?   Personal faith has torn apart countries for centuries.  It was predicted that WW3 would be instigated as a holy war, by a Middle Eastern country.  I heard this back in the seventies.  With all our knowledge as a species, you would think we could overcome this violent nature we posess.   Evidently not, and religion seems to be the fuel that feeds the behavior.

Pity.




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< Message edited by AlwaysLisa -- 9/10/2010 7:33:42 AM >

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RE: We come in peace... - 9/10/2010 8:08:49 AM   
DCWoody


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A, until very recently women (mostly) had little role other than kids, that books written long ago reflect this simply reflects this, and isn't necessarily a sign of sexism.

B, Trying to compare and contrast religions based on how they should officially behave according to what they're meant to believe is pointless, once ya get past a certain point of stupidity adding another retarded chapter doesn't make much difference.

C, Regardless of B, Islam is by far the worst religion currently, in how it in practice affects the world. It's such a clear 'leader' in this field that no amount of semantics and vagueness in how 'worst' is qualified can challenge this statement. There doesn't seem much point excusing their religious beliefs on the basis that other people are also stupid, any more than the other people can defend honourably their stupidity by pointing at Islam.

D, Much as I dislike and work against religion, people are perfectly capable of violence without it. It is not that violence in religion fuels violent human nature, but the reverse.

E, We are, slowly, overcoming this. Since WW2 there has been a consistent decline in conflict world wide. Some would point to the UN, others to better communication technology, maybe it's just the US was eventually the only big power left standing....either way, the world seems to be heading towards fewer and fewer conflicts....personally I can't think of a single ongoing conflict outside the extremist Islam vs USA & allies thing....albeit that does span multiple nations.

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RE: We come in peace... - 9/10/2010 8:34:38 AM   
samboct


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Status: offline 		"C, Regardless of B, Islam is by far the worst religion currently, in how it in practice affects the world. It's such a clear 'leader' in this field that no amount of semantics and vagueness in how 'worst' is qualified can challenge this statement. There doesn't seem much point excusing their religious beliefs on the basis that other people are also stupid, any more than the other people can defend honourably their stupidity by pointing at Islam."

Strong disagreement here. Judaism is given a pass because its got too few members to be destructive, which leaves Christianity and Islam. Given that Catholicism is slowly unmasking the degree of pedophilia prevalent in many churches, the megachurches have enormous wealth and perhaps more political power than they should- remember the "moral majority"? and the Catholic church's crusade against birth control has contributed to spiraling population growth globally-Christianity has demonstrated enormous destructive power and might. Furthermore, it's the institutions of the religions that have done the damage, not the individual believers.

In contrast, the institutions of Islam are less powerful since they don't have the same hierarchy as Christianity. Islam has also taken root or contributed in countries which don't have a lot of global power, except by wielding the power of the oil well. In the developed world, the religion is relatively powerless-an Islamic political candidate in the US? How about in Western Europe? Japan? China? South America?

In terms of the violence advocated by individuals in the religion- again, this is a function of where the religion has its foothold. There's great inequalities in the countries where Islam is the dominant religion. True, like Catholicism, organized Islam such as it is is anti science and anti education, thus continuing to foster the inequalities that make it attractive to the populace, but that's nothing new- how long did the Catholic church maintain its iron grip in Europe?

Any fundamentalist branch of religion can commit heinous acts, whether it's Timothy McVeigh for the Branch Davidians, or the Talibs in Afghanistan, or Shin Aum Rikyo (sp?) in Japan. The only significant difference at this point is that Islam has the largest population of people that see great inequality- a necessary precondition for terrorism.

The reason I disagree strongly here is because singling out Islam in this fashion merely alienates the moderates in the religion- the people in this country that largely left the Middle East for more economic opportunity and religious freedom. These are the people we need to embrace, to get them to discuss with other moderates how the radical/fundamentalist faction of Islam hurts us all. Unfortunately, I suspect they won't be too effective- how much did mainstream Christianity do to stop McVeigh? The most useful thing the Islamic moderates could do is to inveigh against the inequalities in the Muslim world- that will reduce terrorism.


Sam

(in reply to DCWoody)
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RE: We come in peace... - 9/10/2010 8:44:28 AM   
DCWoody


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Status: offline 		Note I said currently. That ya think it might upset/alienate people to say something isn't an argument for its inaccuracy.

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RE: We come in peace... - 9/10/2010 9:55:06 AM   
servantforuse


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Status: offline 		If you think there is violence in the Koran, read up on sharia law.

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RE: We come in peace... - 9/10/2010 10:09:15 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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Status: offline 		"With all our knowledge as a species, you would think we could overcome this violent nature we posess."

Knowledge will never trump nature, unless you lobotomize everyone.

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RE: We come in peace... - 9/10/2010 11:01:58 AM   
samboct


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Status: offline 		"Note I said currently. That ya think it might upset/alienate people to say something isn't an argument for its inaccuracy."

Umm, most of the stuff I pointed out about Christianity is still true today. And from my perspective, you haven't dealt with the problem of geography. Islam is highly popular in the developing world, less so in the developed world. Perhaps the violence that you attribute to Islam is a function of geography. I am hard pressed to see many US born Muslim terrorists for example- the numbers are quite small compared to the overall population, and I'm not sure you could show statistical difference with any other religion. If we had Muslims blowing themselves and their neighbors up every weekend in Des Moines, Detroit, or Dubuque, well, then I might agree with you. But we don't- so spreading the propaganda that Islam is inherently more violent than any other religion can certainly cause harm. You are of course, free to do so......


Sam

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RE: We come in peace... - 9/10/2010 11:54:13 AM   
pogo4pres


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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

"Note I said currently. That ya think it might upset/alienate people to say something isn't an argument for its inaccuracy."

Umm, most of the stuff I pointed out about Christianity is still true today. And from my perspective, you haven't dealt with the problem of geography. Islam is highly popular in the developing world, less so in the developed world. Perhaps the violence that you attribute to Islam is a function of geography. I am hard pressed to see many US born Muslim terrorists for example- the numbers are quite small compared to the overall population, and I'm not sure you could show statistical difference with any other religion. If we had Muslims blowing themselves and their neighbors up every weekend in Des Moines, Detroit, or Dubuque, well, then I might agree with you. But we don't- so spreading the propaganda that Islam is inherently more violent than any other religion can certainly cause harm. You are of course, free to do so......


Sam



I forget who said it on Real Time with Bill Maher, but the point was made if you're living in a 350,000 dollar McMansion and driving an Escalade, it is a bit more difficult to get radicalized, than say living in a garbage dump.   Another quote, for which I have never found solid attribution:
"Terrorists are the mosquitoes, born of the twin swamps of poverty and injustice.  Before one can eradicate the mosquitoes, one must first drain the swamps"

Really simple concepts, but some remain too fucking stupid to see them.




Radically,
Some Knucklehead in NJ


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RE: We come in peace... - 9/10/2010 12:49:01 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pogo4pres

Another quote, for which I have never found solid attribution: "Terrorists are the mosquitoes, born of the twin swamps of poverty and injustice. Before one can eradicate the mosquitoes, one must first drain the swamps"

Really simple concepts, but some remain too fucking stupid to see them.

I'm not surprised that nobody wants to own that quote, though I admit that some people may be, um, what's the phrase I'm looking for, "too fucking stupid," to understand why. See if you can guess.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 9/10/2010 1:15:27 PM >

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RE: We come in peace... - 9/10/2010 8:05:27 PM   
samboct


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Status: offline 		Yo Knucklehead....

I took a stab at how terrorists are made in this thread here- last post on the topic.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_3380519/mpage_5/tm.htm

And I like that quote, but it's not quite accurate- it's a single swamp.

Sam

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RE: We come in peace... - 9/11/2010 2:56:40 AM   
DCWoody


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Status: offline 		"And from my perspective, you haven't dealt with the problem of geography. Islam is highly popular in the developing world, less so in the developed world. Perhaps the violence that you attribute to Islam is a function of geography."

Oh yes, well, I'd say education levels....but ya. That doesn't change it though, whatever the causes.....and I've never meant to suggest other religions are any less fucktarded than Islam....the fact remains that Islam is the most troublesome religion in the world today.

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RE: We come in peace... - 9/11/2010 3:19:26 AM   
hertz


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quote:

the fact remains that Islam is the most troublesome religion in the world today


Are you sure? Depending on how we are defining 'religion', I'd say US style free-market economics is the more troublesome religion. When your God, with his invisible hand, truly doesn't give a shit whether you live or die, then it's bound to end in tears.

Interesting article on the concept below:

http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/99mar/marketgod.htm

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RE: We come in peace... - 9/11/2010 5:16:49 AM   
DCWoody


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Status: offline 		We are defining religion in the non-retarded manner used by dictionaries.

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RE: We come in peace... - 9/11/2010 5:39:20 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
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From: Tamaris
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlwaysLisa

After reading through several verses of the Quran and then looking up some of the Old Testament, both have quite a bit of violence and acts of cruelty within the pages.

They are equal when it comes to their key audience, men.   Both have men as the leading force, main character if you will...pretty heavily condeming homesexualilty or even those who are Bi, (however the Quran does mention youthful men quite a bit "servicing" dark haired virgins).   Women are not placed on a pedestal in either book.  

Both speak of slaughtering infidels or non believers in the chosen God (or Allah). 

Point is, you can find quotes that support or decry much about the same issues in both books...so why is one the work of evil and the other revered?   Personal faith has torn apart countries for centuries.  It was predicted that WW3 would be instigated as a holy war, by a Middle Eastern country.  I heard this back in the seventies.  With all our knowledge as a species, you would think we could overcome this violent nature we posess.   Evidently not, and religion seems to be the fuel that feeds the behavior.

Pity.





I also heard or rather read this too, a book by General M'c Arthur, it even mentioned the station where I served and a particular sanger in much detail. Anyway, I became of the belief that the next war, will be the war that fucks us all and that because of the point of origin and the weapons technology now available. The literature I read mentions things that have come to pass, like the break up of the Warsaw pact and religion running riot in the now out of control former USSR territories. So this war, the third world war, the Holy war the whatever label war will come and come soon, so the job of ourselves is to delay that war as long as possible and if at all possible defuse the situations that could escalate into something meaner, but what will it take to see more clearly, perhaps this religion thing, the old lines in the sand need scrubbing out.

Poverty is a factor in religion,where there is poverty people need to find belief and it is the poor of the world who have the true power, for no one cares about the poor, but they are the fertile fields for the growth of change.

I am aware of what Islam is to the few, as I am aware of what Christianity is to the few, both these Abrahamic religions that stemmed from the same source are the problem the rest of the world has to suffer, but why does the world have to suffer for God, unless God is not the problem, just people in their primitive understanding.

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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to AlwaysLisa)
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RE: We come in peace... - 9/11/2010 6:22:12 AM   
samboct


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Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		Woody

From Wikipedia-

According to a 2004 telephone survey of a sample of 1846 Muslims conducted by the polling organization Zogby, the respondents were more educated and affluent than the national average, with 59% of them holding at least an undergraduate college degree.[85] Citing the Zogby survey, a 2005 Wall Street Journal editorial by Bret Stephens and Joseph Rago expressed the tendency of American Muslims to report employment in professional fields, with one in three having an income over $75,000 a year.[86] The editorial also characterized American Muslims as "role models both as Americans and as Muslims".
Unlike many Muslims in Europe, American Muslims do not tend to feel marginalized or isolated from political participation. Several organizations were formed by the American Muslim community to serve as 'critical consultants' on U.S. policy regarding Iraq and Afghanistan. Other groups have worked with law enforcement agencies to point out Muslims within the United States that they suspect of fostering 'intolerant attitudes'. Still others have worked to invite interfaith dialogue and improved relations between Muslim and non-Muslim Americans.[87]


Here's my problem with your viewpoint...If Islam is such a troublesome religion- why isn't it troublesome in the US? Because I think you'd find it difficult to really come up with much justification for that viewpoint- certainly compared to any other religion. From my perspective- the religion is incidental to the problems of terrorism. If the terrorists on 9/11 9 years ago wore a certain type of sneaker- should we ban those types of sneakers and say that all people wearing them are terrorists?

This type of prejudice is exactly what Osama Bin Towel and his minions hoped to achieve. (Was it really 9 years ago?) There really isn't much prejudice against Muslims in this country- nor should there be. But tolerance doesn't suit Bin Towels aims and so he hoped to increase the divide in between Muslims and the Western world. Why let him win?

Sam

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RE: We come in peace... - 9/11/2010 7:14:42 AM   
DCWoody


Posts: 1401
Joined: 10/27/2006
Status: offline 		You are missing my point.

I'm not saying the 'trouble' is inherent in Islam more than other religions, I'm saying that Islam is currently causing the most trouble....under the current circumstances. Maybe things would be different if things were different, but they ain't. It is a statement of reality of the world today. Of what is not what might be.

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RE: We come in peace... - 9/11/2010 7:34:57 AM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline 		I think the difference is that currently there are more Muslims using their holy book to justify violence than there are Jews doing the same. Also the fact that a lot of the violence being justified is against the West and Western secular culture sort of paints them as the "enemy" so to speak.

Also Judaism and the Old Testament have a direct link to Christianity, the religion of the people who first settled the US, whereas Islam hasn't really permeated western culture to any significant degree.

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RE: We come in peace... - 9/11/2010 7:57:02 AM   
DCWoody


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quote:

Christianity, the religion of the people who first settled the US,




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RE: We come in peace... - 9/11/2010 8:23:23 AM   
hertz


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quote:

DCWoody We are defining religion in the non-retarded manner used by dictionaries.


LOL If you are incapable of thinking beyond the definitions and ideas fed to you by your media, that's absolutely fine by me. And clearly a one-line reply is extremely intelligent. Nice work. But personally, I think you are missing a trick. I think it is perfectly justifiable to suggest that the OP suggestion that:

quote:

Personal faith has torn apart countries for centuries.  It was predicted that WW3 would be instigated as a holy war, by a Middle Eastern country.  I heard this back in the seventies.  With all our knowledge as a species, you would think we could overcome this violent nature we posess.   Evidently not, and religion seems to be the fuel that feeds the behavior


... is only a partial rendering of the truth.

In the past, there is little doubt that the followers of different religions went up against each other to fight for supremacy and control of the way populations think. That is because if you go back five or six hundred years, religious philosophies were pretty much all there were. We are in a different world now. Yes, we still have traditional religious belief to deal with, but we also have a whole new set of 'pseudo-religious'  belief systems in the mix - free-market economics, science and, up until recently, a few state controlled collectivist ideas.

Think about it, if you are able to. The modern war between the West and Islam is not about competing religions. But it is, as always, about competing philosophies. What is going on today is a struggle between Islam (or versions thereof), secularism and the free market. It's a bigger and more complex battle altogether.

quote:

DCWoody  Islam is currently causing the most trouble....under the current circumstances.


The reason Islam is so fully in the frame, in my opinion, is that some of us are ignoring the reality that some of the followers of Islam (by no means all of them) are of the opinion that their belief and their very right to believe is under attack. It isn't under attack by another religion though. If you look at what the opposing forces look like, what you actually see is a version of Islam on one side and secularism and the free market on the other. It's an incredibly complex situation, much more complex than you and your trusty dictionary would have us believe.

quote:

I think the difference is that currently there are more Muslims using their holy book to justify violence than there are Jews doing the same.


@ Elisabella The difference is that those Jews who justify violence do not completely turn to religion to justify their evil. They turn to Zionism (which is apparently a secular idea) and their alliance with Western values to defend their bombing of Gaza and their theft of Palestinian land. Israel has a few million zealots willing to kill for what they believe in, and they are armed not with home-made fertilizer bombs and suicide belts,  but with US supplied nuclear technology. They may be fewer in number than the jihadis (I don't actually know) but they make up for it by being armed to the teeth.



< Message edited by hertz -- 9/11/2010 8:26:51 AM >

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RE: We come in peace... - 9/11/2010 8:49:50 AM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

quote:

Christianity, the religion of the people who first settled the US,






Don't get pedantic :P

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