Just suppose ?

Just suppose ? (Full Version)

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Aneirin -> Just suppose ? (9/10/2010 5:22:15 PM)
Just suppose oil had never been discovered in the middle East, would the Western world be having such problems now with those of the Muslim faith ? To remember, Islam as we know it now has long passed it's peak, the age when art, science and learning was the prerequisite, a religion devoted to the glory of the god in it's myriad forms. Given that Islam had become more or less back water and penny less would it be such a threat now if it was not for the vast sums the infidel has to pay for what they desire more than life itself, that thing the infidel found in Islamic lands ? Did we create this problem, are we reaping what we have sown ?

DomKen -> RE: Just suppose ? (9/10/2010 5:36:48 PM)
2 things to keep in mind. 1) These things are cyclic. Christendom started as teh glorious Roman Empire which ruled essentially half the world and then collapsed into the Dark Ages. The Islamic world is going through a down time. They will eventually have their own renassaince. 2) The crusades. We were in conflict with the Islamic world long before we needed petroleum.

Elisabella -> RE: Just suppose ? (9/10/2010 6:03:51 PM)
Nah that's like saying that African warlords only do what they do because people want diamonds. We might fund insanely violent people but we don't actually make them insanely violent.

Aneirin -> RE: Just suppose ? (9/10/2010 6:17:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen 2 things to keep in mind. 1) These things are cyclic. Christendom started as teh glorious Roman Empire which ruled essentially half the world and then collapsed into the Dark Ages. The Islamic world is going through a down time. They will eventually have their own renassaince. 2) The crusades. We were in conflict with the Islamic world long before we needed petroleum. The time of the crusades, people were so fucked up on religion they did what they were told by the church, which at the time was the Roman Catholic church who was answering a call from the Byzantines who were concerned about the encroachment or the Islamic empire into Europe, more so loss of power as opposed to the protection of Christians.

pahunkboy -> RE: Just suppose ? (9/10/2010 6:21:40 PM)
then we would have to ignore the 12 times that the Muslims crushed others in the crusades. Give it a quick read in wiki- it was brutal- bold- and re-occurring. It is all fun and games until a people is invaded and enslaved.

Aneirin -> RE: Just suppose ? (9/10/2010 6:24:00 PM)
Just one point Pahunk, beware of wikipedia, it is not the font of all correct knowledge all the time, for it is open to modification by any that choose to do so.

pahunkboy -> RE: Just suppose ? (9/10/2010 6:34:40 PM)
quote: Muslims crushed others in the crusades quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin Just one point Pahunk, beware of wikipedia, it is not the font of all correct knowledge all the time, for it is open to modification by any that choose to do so. Historical context MUST be more then 234 years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire Westerners typically think only in recent history as a frame of reference. When that is like coming into the middle of a movie. Thus- we seldom get at the root of any problem.

Aneirin -> RE: Just suppose ? (9/10/2010 6:48:03 PM)
But if you desire more scholarly articles on the subject, Try;' Google Scholar', just type that into your search engine and go for it, but the situation as regards the rights and wrongs of the crusader period is complex, far more complex than one might think, but as always what is understood comes from one's own perspective. A friend of mine has changed Wikipedia pages, his entries were chased by a bot, but he managed to make his words stay put by sheer persistence. Also another wikipedia page I knew has been changed by another into complete tripe, that person's perspective, they make the situation definitive when before and as most know it the information was questionable, open to conjecture as there is not enough known.

THELADY -> RE: Just suppose ? (9/10/2010 7:12:33 PM)
IMO there are 4 other things to keep in mind. 1 we are not to blame for all the ills in the world. those people over there have been fighting each other and any others since they began. they have also been living (out side the few modern towns) like they have lived since they began. maybe they like riding camels and living in tents or adoby houses. I don't know, don't really care, its their choice. 2 any oil money made stays mostly in the hands of the rulers. 3 'we' did not fight them in the crusades. some in america might have had ansestors who did.....just a guess.....but who knows! some americans thru the eras may have had hands in their politics, what govt on earth hasn't butted in else where when they could. 4 if that makes the killers( the radicals) our fault then they have no free will. hummmm maybe there is a God! ETA 5 if there was no oil we woulf be living in the 1800's with horse and buggys. -eyes roll- wouldn't that life be fun! obama's science czar thinks de- industerlizing America is a good thing.

DomKen -> RE: Just suppose ? (9/10/2010 11:24:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen 2 things to keep in mind. 1) These things are cyclic. Christendom started as teh glorious Roman Empire which ruled essentially half the world and then collapsed into the Dark Ages. The Islamic world is going through a down time. They will eventually have their own renassaince. 2) The crusades. We were in conflict with the Islamic world long before we needed petroleum. The time of the crusades, people were so fucked up on religion they did what they were told by the church, which at the time was the Roman Catholic church who was answering a call from the Byzantines who were concerned about the encroachment or the Islamic empire into Europe, more so loss of power as opposed to the protection of Christians. And the argument can be made that the "arab street" is driven by a small set of leaders who hold power by fomenting concern about christian encroachment into the islamic world. the situation that occured at the start of the crusades is simply reversed.

hertz -> RE: Just suppose ? (9/11/2010 1:55:11 AM)
Sorry - just realised the date.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Just suppose ? (9/11/2010 8:15:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin But if you desire more scholarly articles on the subject, Try;' Google Scholar', just type that into your search engine and go for it, but the situation as regards the rights and wrongs of the crusader period is complex, far more complex than one might think, but as always what is understood comes from one's own perspective. A friend of mine has changed Wikipedia pages, his entries were chased by a bot, but he managed to make his words stay put by sheer persistence. Also another wikipedia page I knew has been changed by another into complete tripe, that person's perspective, they make the situation definitive when before and as most know it the information was questionable, open to conjecture as there is not enough known. Which of course means that all wiki pages are similarly corrupted. Hint: follow the footnote links

Aneirin -> RE: Just suppose ? (9/11/2010 10:43:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin But if you desire more scholarly articles on the subject, Try;' Google Scholar', just type that into your search engine and go for it, but the situation as regards the rights and wrongs of the crusader period is complex, far more complex than one might think, but as always what is understood comes from one's own perspective. A friend of mine has changed Wikipedia pages, his entries were chased by a bot, but he managed to make his words stay put by sheer persistence. Also another wikipedia page I knew has been changed by another into complete tripe, that person's perspective, they make the situation definitive when before and as most know it the information was questionable, open to conjecture as there is not enough known. Which of course means that all wiki pages are similarly corrupted. Hint: follow the footnote links From Wikipedia itself ; Reliability of Wikipedia Because of my studies, I approach Wikipedia from an academic view point, it is a stepping stone to information rather than a total source.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Just suppose ? (9/11/2010 11:00:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin But if you desire more scholarly articles on the subject, Try;' Google Scholar', just type that into your search engine and go for it, but the situation as regards the rights and wrongs of the crusader period is complex, far more complex than one might think, but as always what is understood comes from one's own perspective. A friend of mine has changed Wikipedia pages, his entries were chased by a bot, but he managed to make his words stay put by sheer persistence. Also another wikipedia page I knew has been changed by another into complete tripe, that person's perspective, they make the situation definitive when before and as most know it the information was questionable, open to conjecture as there is not enough known. Which of course means that all wiki pages are similarly corrupted. Hint: follow the footnote links From Wikipedia itself ; Reliability of Wikipedia Because of my studies, I approach Wikipedia from an academic view point, it is a stepping stone to information rather than a total source. I guess you didnt understand my hint.

Moonhead -> RE: Just suppose ? (9/12/2010 9:34:17 AM)
There's certainly no doubt that America has a long history of buying oil from the more reactionary and obnoxious regimes in the area (hard as it might be to believe, the current Iranian theocracy is only slightly more appalling than the regime the Shah ran for twenty years after the CIA deposed Mohammed Mossadeq and put the tosser back in power because it looked like -the progressive and left leaning- Mossadeq was planning to nationalise Iran's oil industry). Of course, oil is far from the only issue here, and the whole Soviet Union thing is just as relevant. Remember who it was who started funding radical shi'ite terrorists in Afghanistan? Nobody had a problem with the Muhjahadeen when they were giving the USSR a hard time. It's only when the Russians split and a new influx of cretins who think it's still the fourteenth century flooded in from Pakistan that anybody in the 'States realised that perhaps running insurgency training schools for the sort of fundamentalist muslims who stone unmarried women and hate everybody who can't read the Koran in Arabic might not have been such a good idea. As everybody else has already said, Aneirin, there's a lot more than oil going on, here. That just leads to excuses being made for the Saudis that aren't made for similarly vile regimes elsewhere in the middle east.

thishereboi -> RE: Just suppose ? (9/12/2010 3:01:43 PM)
quote: Just suppose oil had never been discovered in the middle East, would the Western world be having such problems now with those of the Muslim faith ? Were there wars in the area before the oil was discovered?

Vendaval -> RE: Just suppose ? (9/13/2010 12:54:52 AM)
It is quite literally, "putting out fire with gasoline".

Aneirin -> RE: Just suppose ? (9/13/2010 4:06:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: Just suppose oil had never been discovered in the middle East, would the Western world be having such problems now with those of the Muslim faith ? Were there wars in the area before the oil was discovered? Yes, there were inter tribal wars the same going on as ever, cattle rustling, women pinching, that sort of thing, the same as I suppose any tribe in any part of the world has done since the dawn of mankind, and the fighting of Ottoman Empire, which I believe was Britain sticking it's nose in as they wished to depose Ottoman rule in the middle east, weaken them so they would not be such a threat to Europe and what remained of the British Empire and their field of influence.

thishereboi -> RE: Just suppose ? (9/13/2010 4:13:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: Just suppose oil had never been discovered in the middle East, would the Western world be having such problems now with those of the Muslim faith ? Were there wars in the area before the oil was discovered? Yes, there were inter tribal wars the same going on as ever, cattle rustling, women pinching, that sort of thing, the same as I suppose any tribe in any part of the world has done since the dawn of mankind, and the fighting of Ottoman Empire, which I believe was Britain sticking it's nose in as they wished to depose Ottoman rule in the middle east, weaken them so they would not be such a threat to Europe and what remained of the British Empire and their field of influence. Then I guess the oil really doesn't matter.

Aneirin -> RE: Just suppose ? (9/13/2010 5:43:41 AM)
Except for the fact little if anything was being derived from that region before, the Arabs were not important to the world, whereas they are now. Now if I could bring the discussion back to this link, see under the sub heading Barrels and Bombs note who is funding the terrorist groups, none other than the wealthy people who were made rich by oil exports. So it could be said the need/greed for oil to enhance our lives has caused the situation we are now in, for The Institute for the Analysis of Global security (IAGS) believes there is a link between oil and terror. As to suggestions that we would be back in the pre twentieth century if it were not for oil, I ask, would we, or would we have an alternative energy source, geo thermal even in accordance with Tesla's designs, or could it be for the oil that we did have, we were more frugal with it, treating it as the rare commodity it is along with food and water instead of the free for all build big engines to guzzle gas for the leisure market. As to war, the wars fought, they were fuelled by oil, for without oil, no terrifying machinery, no cities getting blitzed on a nightly basis and civilians becoming targets off the battlefield. If oil was used frugally, would oil be wasted in war.

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