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fishoutofwater -> rocky d/s relationships (9/11/2010 3:40:09 PM)

Dear Master,

I am a young-ish submissive living with my husband and dom.

Before I ask my question, some background information may be necessary in order to illuminate the problem at hand.

So, when I first met my dom I was 17. Neither one of us had any experience with BDSM but wanted to try it out. Personally, I always knew I wanted
to be with someone I would feel comfortable submitting to, principally in the bedroom. In fact, the little sexual experience I had before then had not been terribly rewarding. I had, and still have, a hard time getting turned on unless some aspect of d/s and/or s/m is part of the act.

Long story short, we started playing and found that it suited us both quite well. Mind you, I always desired a different level of play from my partner. He was more reluctant to take too many steps forward all at once. His philosophy was always to take one step at a time, while I wanted to dive in head first. I always felt that I was "more into it" than he was. His type of play is centered around sex, incorporating BDSM. For me, BDSM is my primary interest and preference. Sex is secondary. Since he was/is the dom in this relationship, we took it step by step as he preferred. We made it work for the last seven years (although we have encountered some serious problems along the way)

Our BDSM/sexual relationship (no strings attached) eventually turned serious and we moved in together. Later on, we got married.

So, after the initial excitement accompanying something new and thrilling, I found it harder to get my needs met. In other words, my partner's interest seemed to wane a little bit. We both decided to join a local BDSM club, where I experienced numerous sessions of more "hardcore" or "edge" play.
Since then, he has developed more of a interest in playing with other girls. We have an open relationship, so I never viewed this as a problem. In fact, since I was getting my needs met at the club with and without him, I found it to be only fair that he also look for others.

Very recently, his focus has shifted to play with others. (I feel like a third wheel, when I am part of it at all). Our most recent scene involved me being locked in a very small space with another girl. We would get removed from the "hole" at times to receive beatings/sex/discipline etc. The other girl is better matched for my husband in terms of play than I am. Her main focus is also sex, and she does not necessarily prefer hard play. In this scene I felt almost cheated, as the play was very light most of the time and was focused on their preferences. When they later asked me what I thought of the scene I said the following:

I had a lot of fun. It was a neat experience. The other girl is easy to get along with. HOWEVER, the scene was not really what it was anticipated to be. I found no real challenges, physically or psychologically.
Another long discussion short, my partner proceeds to tell me that he prefers to play with the other sub because she "appreciated what she got the whole way through", is more emotional and reactive, in short, a better sub. He indicated that I am not a real sub, since I am not as "appreciative" as her.
This revelation really hurt me. It also made me confused about my own identity. On the one hand, he always encouraged me to voice my preferences and said I should be able to ask for things. It would be up to him to give it to me or not. Now I found that that is not really true. I find myself unable to have my needs met, while remaining "a true sub".

QUESTION: How can I work on getting my needs met while not overpowering him or making him feel inadequate?
How can I regain my identity as a sub while not giving up on the things that make me happy? Is there a specific way to address this problem without disrespecting my dom?

What is your view on a "real sub". Is it really so that "real subs" don't have needs independent of others? (If so, I might have to give up on my long-held identity, and be something else)

Sorry for the very long post.
Thank you in advance for any helpful tips

fishoutofwater



Nineveh -> RE: rocky d/s relationships (9/11/2010 3:53:57 PM)

Real people have needs, sub or not.  You should definitely have a conversation with him about the fact that your needs are not being met.  It is possible that you would be best seeking someone outside the relationship to fulfiul your needs just as he has found people outside the relationship to fulfil his.



leadership527 -> RE: rocky d/s relationships (9/11/2010 3:59:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nineveh
Real people have needs, sub or not.

QFT



fishoutofwater -> RE: rocky d/s relationships (9/11/2010 4:08:05 PM)

Thanks guys. That is my opinion as well. I never entered this relationship saying I have no limits, no preferences, no needs etc. All that being said, I need advice on HOW to deal with this problem. I want to make it work. I love my husband/dom and I want to find a way we can both function.

I want to seek outside help (i.e., play with others.) However, he told me it makes him feel inadequate when I mention this. Damn, this is no fun at all.

thanks again
fishy



DaddyHedgie -> RE: rocky d/s relationships (9/11/2010 4:08:45 PM)

That first line really says it all. It seems to be that he simply wants to spend all his time with this sub who seems to "fit him better" then his own wife. And as the relationship is open, perhaps you should talk to him about you getting your hardcore and edge play from a dom who is willing to take you as far as you want. Its only fair, if he found what he needs in another sub, that you find what you need. And if he cant provide it in this lifestyle, then it may be time to find a dom who can. Im not saying get divorced, or anything like that. But a friend who is a dom and gives you what you seek.

So thats my advice. Talk to him about you having a dom who takes you where you need to. And the fact that he feels "inadequate" is only on his end. You seem to feel the same when he doesnt provide for you. So, love or not, and the inadequacy aside, you need a dom who takes you to your subspace. If he wont man up and do it for you, then you need to do what you need to. 's how I see it, at least >.>



Nineveh -> RE: rocky d/s relationships (9/11/2010 4:30:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fishoutofwater

Thanks guys. That is my opinion as well. I never entered this relationship saying I have no limits, no preferences, no needs etc. All that being said, I need advice on HOW to deal with this problem. I want to make it work. I love my husband/dom and I want to find a way we can both function.

I want to seek outside help (i.e., play with others.) However, he told me it makes him feel inadequate when I mention this. Damn, this is no fun at all.

thanks again
fishy


Considering he is fucking others it's only fair that you be allowed to as well.  The fact that it makes him feel inadequate is, honestly, kind of beside the point.  I'd have a serious discussion with him and be clear about what you need, if he isn't able to give that to you he should be able to accept you looking for it elsewhere.



fishoutofwater -> RE: rocky d/s relationships (9/11/2010 4:40:23 PM)

@DaddyHedgie: Wow, thanks for your thoughtful response. I agree in principle with what you are saying.

@ Nineveh: While I have no desire to find someone else to have sex with, I know that I will eventually need more hard play (sans sex).


And yes, when he says I am not a good sub, it really hurts. I do feel inadequate. What I see as the main difference between what he is doing and what I want to do is this:

If he wanted to do the things I seek, I would be very happy to do them only with him (no need for another dom)

He is able to do the things he likes with me, but prefers someone else. In fact, he is choosing to do things to other people, that he has no interest in doing with me (more extreme humiliation play for example)

Anyways, more help is appreciated. Especially on HOW to address the issue with him, in a tactful, non-confrontational manner

fishy



leadership527 -> RE: rocky d/s relationships (9/11/2010 4:49:44 PM)

Really Fishy? You need to talk to him exactly as you have us. You've been very tactful and non-confrontational here. Granted, it's WAY FREAKIN HARD to be as detached face to face with the other half of the problem, but that's what you need to do.

My advice is to not worry about what he is doing and/or what you are doing. The real problem here is that there are needs not being met in the relationship and the discussion that needs to happen is about getting those needs met in a way which affirms the marriage rather than destroys it. In theory, you two are a team. You both need to start acting that way. You need to sit down like two partners and work out how to resolve the problems your team is facing.

How about this.

You: Honey, I'm seriously needing more edge play and you don't seem interested. We need to figure out something.
Him: You're a bad sub.
You: Maybe... maybe not. But whether or not I'm a bad sub, I'm still unhappy. Won't you help me?



fishoutofwater -> RE: rocky d/s relationships (9/11/2010 4:59:31 PM)

@leadership527: THANK YOU! first for saying that my post was tactful (I have often been criticized for being much to blunt in the past, and it is something I have been working hard at improving) and secondly, for giving me an idea of what to say and how to view the problem!

The wheels in my head are finally turning again here. Maybe there is hope

fishy



leadership527 -> RE: rocky d/s relationships (9/11/2010 5:10:05 PM)

*chuckles* You're welcome Fishy.

Sometimes I think I need to open a tattoo parlor that specializes in tattooing the word "PARTNER" on the insides of people's eyelids. That way every time they blinked, they'd get a subliminal message* reminding them that it's a PARTNERSHIP *grins*.

*NOTE: subliminal messages do not work. Yet another Svengali-esque mind control technique where the emperor has no clothes.



Nineveh -> RE: rocky d/s relationships (9/11/2010 5:34:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fishoutofwater

@DaddyHedgie: Wow, thanks for your thoughtful response. I agree in principle with what you are saying.

@ Nineveh: While I have no desire to find someone else to have sex with, I know that I will eventually need more hard play (sans sex).


And yes, when he says I am not a good sub, it really hurts. I do feel inadequate. What I see as the main difference between what he is doing and what I want to do is this:

If he wanted to do the things I seek, I would be very happy to do them only with him (no need for another dom)

He is able to do the things he likes with me, but prefers someone else. In fact, he is choosing to do things to other people, that he has no interest in doing with me (more extreme humiliation play for example)

Anyways, more help is appreciated. Especially on HOW to address the issue with him, in a tactful, non-confrontational manner

fishy


I don't know that being completely non-confrontational is possible, however you can certainly be tactful and polite.  You do need to be open and honest with him about your needs though, and you will probably need to be insistent that they do need to be met.



DesFIP -> RE: rocky d/s relationships (9/11/2010 6:41:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fishoutofwater

I want to seek outside help (i.e., play with others.) However, he told me it makes him feel inadequate when I mention this. Damn, this is no fun at all.

thanks again
fishy


Tell him this, in his own words. That it makes you feel inadequate when he insists on playing with others the way he likes to play instead of playing with you the way you need to play.

He can either meet your needs or allow someone else to do so. What he cannot do if he wants you to continue to love and follow him is leave your needs unmet. He is causing you to feel bad by cutting you down and making it clear he prefers this other girl to you. He is making you angry because he always claimed he wanted honesty from you but he's shown you that he doesn't want that, he wants you to lie and tell him that he's fabulous when he isn't. He is making you resent him. None of these things will cause a good relationship, they will destroy the relationship you have.

He needs to man up and accept criticism or else watch the relationship disintegrate. He needs to earn your trust all over again now that he's told you he is afraid of hearing the truth and doesn't care about your needs. Personally I wouldn't submit to someone who demanded I lie to him to shore up his weak ego and who told me point blank that he didn't care that I didn't enjoy sex with him. YMMV

I'd consider marriage counseling on learning how to communicate openly and how to prioritize your relationship over him screwing others. But I doubt he'd agree to it. Unfortunately this is what happens when you marry very young, you idealize the other person and eventually discover that he isn't the person he always claimed to be. Good luck, you'll need it.



RealSub58 -> RE: rocky d/s relationships (9/11/2010 6:58:50 PM)

quote:

What is your view on a "real sub". Is it really so that "real subs" don't have needs independent of others? (If so, I might have to give up on my long-held identity, and be something else)
quote:

ORIGINAL: fishoutofwater


I am so sorry you are hurting.
The only response I feel like I am able to give is your "identity."
My username came from my Sir, not me.  Realsub. 

I am a natural submissive, I do not have to work at submission, it is who I am to the core. 
If being a submissive is something saved only for the bedroom or "club" I am not much able to help you there either. 

Being a submissive is something I am and thus allowing the dominant to be in control of not only a scene but of everyday life is what I desire.  I am assuming your husband is not in control outside of the bedroom and thus possible lacks what he believes is respect from him at that level, out of the bedroom.  A husband needs/wants respect as a man and husband 
quote:

I want to seek outside help (i.e., play with others.) However, he told me it makes him feel inadequate when I mention this.
and a wife wants/needs love and emotional attachment.

IMHO, an open relationship is a natural road for possible disaster.
Been there with a dom and done that.  Didn't end well for me and yet it was ok with him cause he got his sex; which he called his "dirty little secret."

I hope you receive the advice, encouragement and help you seek.

wanted to add.....Jeff (leadership527) always has something good to say !!




LadyPact -> RE: rocky d/s relationships (9/11/2010 8:08:51 PM)

I'm a little confused here.  Maybe you can help Me out.

In the original, I thought I had read that it already was ok for you to play with other people.  If this is in place, I'm not really sure what the issue is about.  It seems to Me that you have or had prior permission.  Was there something about that which has changed?

The biggest problem that I'm seeing with the situation is what appears to be hurtful things said between the two of you.  There's no reason that the two of you can't discuss the areas of incompatibility and leave the statements that are hurtful out of it.  (I agree that you did a good job at phrasing it here.)  Things like implying the other person is not a good Dom or sub don't have to be included in it.



subsfaith -> RE: rocky d/s relationships (9/12/2010 5:20:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fishoutofwater
QUESTION: How can I work on getting my needs met while not overpowering him or making him feel inadequate?

These are not needs.  Psychological needs are define as water, food, warmth, shelter, clothing, human contact, etc.... no where in needs is a section for a sound thrashing or a BDSM interest.  However, if you place undue focus on your desires, they will mimic needs.

The first step to getting your desires met is letting your husband know what they are.  Tell him clearly, 'I want...'.  As your husband he will want to please you, and will probably give you want you want, unless it goes against what he wants.

quote:

ORIGINAL: fishoutofwater
How can I regain my identity as a sub while not giving up on the things that make me happy? Is there a specific way to address this problem without disrespecting my dom?

I don't understand how you have lost your identity as a sub?  I see that you are doing things that your husband wants, but that doesn't mean you have lost anything.

quote:

ORIGINAL: fishoutofwater
What is your view on a "real sub". Is it really so that "real subs" don't have needs independent of others?

I think in the instance you gave, you weren't as submissive as the other girl.  I also think you were far too focused on your own needs to think about his, and this will have affected your submission.  However I don't think that discounts you from being a submissive.

All people have needs, but what you have classed as needs are desires.

Overall, I would say there are two people in your relationship, you and your husband.  You both have desires, and it looks like they are differently focused.  Which means you need to find a solution, you can either change your mind and turn his desires into your desires, you can compromise (he meets some of your and you meet some if his), or you find other ways to realise your desires.

I do have a couple of suggestions, perhaps a fem-sub mentor might be a of use to you.  Someone who you can talk to, someone who understands that side of the fence, someone with similar experiences.

There is a book called The Surrendered Wife by Laura Doyle that focuses on relinquishing control, being respectful, and changing your own behaviour as a way of effecting change in your relationship.

I know in this post you have given us just one of your experiences, and for greatest effect and understanding you have posted one that was particularly about your husband and his desires.  However, if you are honest with yourself, I am sure you will find lots of occasions where the scene was about you and what you wanted.

Sometimes we have to give more of ourselves in order to get back what we want in return...

Good luck



LadyRian -> RE: rocky d/s relationships (9/12/2010 8:11:43 AM)

Hello,
If I may quote you here:

"Another long discussion short, my partner proceeds to tell me that he prefers to play with the other sub because she "appreciated what she got the whole way through", is more emotional and reactive, in short, a better sub. He indicated that I am not a real sub, since I am not as "appreciative" as her.
This revelation really hurt me. It also made me confused about my own identity. On the one hand, he always encouraged me to voice my preferences and said I should be able to ask for things. It would be up to him to give it to me or not. Now I found that that is not really true."

Trust your gut instincts. If something about your relationship is causing you emotional pain, then there's something that needs to be fixed. The comparison with another, and his telling you that you are somehow inferior to her is, in my opinion, unnecessarily cruel.  It also indicates to me some underlying relationship issues that have much less to do with BDSM than with partnership/marriage issues. 

My submissive is gone now, due to partnership issues, which carried over into BDSM.
He was decidedly less than honest with Me, (even worse, dishonest with himself,) and the result was disaster.
I would say that it's essential for you to be honest with him, concerning your feelings. It may be difficult due to the dynamics of your relationship, but without trust and truth, it becomes less of a relationship. If he refuses to listen to you, and is less than willing to work with accommodating your feelings, as your husband, I'd take a good look at what I wanted out of life, and behave accordingly. You are a submissive, yes. You are also an equal human being, with needs and desires.

And what I would call a need here is the need to be loved, the need to be valued by the one you love, and appreciated. BDSM activities are indeed desires, as another poster stated. But for many people there's a need underlying; A need for connection, trust, and love.

Some people are cool with just play,or a casual relationship, not getting too deeply involved with the other person. If it works well for those concerned, go for it.
Some of us feel differently and need something more.
There are varying degrees of everything.






fishoutofwater -> RE: rocky d/s relationships (9/12/2010 10:08:13 AM)

@Ladypact: I used to play with other people at the club with his permission (to them) to play with me. We very rarely attend that club now, and very few people there are interested in my level of play (basically it has been taken over by a lot of very young people who all want a light spanking) Sorry, I guess I didn't explain that part:(

@subsfaith: I agree. The term "need" is not necessarily used correctly here. Keep in mind though, most people now recognize psychological needs as more than "human contact". If you look at Maslows hierarchy of needs for example, love and BELONGING is one entire section, followed my esteem (respect and self-esteem) and finally self-actualization.
Feeling accepted, valued, and to experience some sexual intimacy are considered needs in this context. I feel that those "needs" or areas are not being met.

While I can learn to like many things for my dom (I have done this numerous times and continue to engage in activities that I am not actually into) I cannot change what I consider my "sexual preference". As I mentioned in my original post, before I met my husband I was unable to enjoy sexual activities because they contained no aspect of BDSM.

I do like the idea of a sub-mentor. I might need one of those. I will try to seek one here in my community.

Thank you
fishy



sexyred1 -> RE: rocky d/s relationships (9/12/2010 10:21:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fishoutofwater

And yes, when he says I am not a good sub, it really hurts. I do feel inadequate. What I see as the main difference between what he is doing and what I want to do is this:

A good sub is subjective, there is no one size fits all. You are as good as he makes you feel. If you do not feel good from the way he treats you, then it is he who has the problem. When he said you are not a "true" sub, that is complete bullshit.

If he wanted to do the things I seek, I would be very happy to do them only with him (no need for another dom)

Exactly; he needs to realize this was your intention. And you need to discover why he is not doing them with you.

He is able to do the things he likes with me, but prefers someone else. In fact, he is choosing to do things to other people, that he has no interest in doing with me (more extreme humiliation play for example)

Here is the big red flag for me: You first said he would not go far enough with you thus you sought out more from experiences at the clubs. NOW, you say he is doing what you wanted him to do to YOU, but to someone else. That smacks to me of him punishing you for not reacting the way HE thought you should react, rather than him respecting your honest answer when he asked you how you thought the scenes went. This says he is just trying to hurt you emotionally and is being a selfish jerk.

Anyways, more help is appreciated. Especially on HOW to address the issue with him, in a tactful, non-confrontational manner

I think you have said all the right things to him, but he is not listening and just ignoring your needs. If you still care enough about your marriage, I would recommend not playing with others for a while until you both figure out the underlying reasons for the behaviors exhibited.
 
In the end, hopefully you will find out the truth of it all.

fishy



subsfaith -> RE: rocky d/s relationships (9/12/2010 11:36:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fishoutofwater
@subsfaith: I agree. The term "need" is not necessarily used correctly here. Keep in mind though, most people now recognize psychological needs as more than "human contact". If you look at Maslows hierarchy of needs for example, love and BELONGING is one entire section, followed my esteem (respect and self-esteem) and finally self-actualization.

Feeling accepted, valued, and to experience some sexual intimacy are considered needs in this context. I feel that those "needs" or areas are not being met.

While I can learn to like many things for my dom (I have done this numerous times and continue to engage in activities that I am not actually into) I cannot change what I consider my "sexual preference". As I mentioned in my original post, before I met my husband I was unable to enjoy sexual activities because they contained no aspect of BDSM.


Hi Fishy,

While I agree, a lot of people do place unnecessary emphasis on human contact as psychological needs, I have yet to read a study that can refute what Maslow claims to any great degree. So I tend more to believe that people are conditionalising their wants and desires, saying they are 'needs' and in turn making themselves unhappy when their conditions aren't being met. 

BDSM isn't a need, or every person on the planet would need it to some degree.  I don't even think sexual intimacy is a need.  Sex is listed by Maslow as a means of procreation and nothing more.  People are born virgins, and many have died that way too, without adverse effect (unless you count crazy cat-ladies).  However, telling yourself you are going to be psychologically damaged if you don't fulfill this side of you is likely to be a self-fulfilling prophesy. 

Now I can understand you aren't getting what you want.  It sucks, I know, I rarely get what I want in BDSM terms.  But it isn't going to damage me in the long term, if anything it will make me stronger if I can focus my energies in the right way.

In terms of 'sexual preference', I disagree with you.  I think you can change to that to a high degree.  When I first started out I abhorred the thought of anyone hitting me, or inflicting pain on me.  The thought of experiencing pain turned me off instantly.  Yet here I am many years later a self-confessed pain-slut. 

I see so many things that can be achieved with the right train of thought.  self-conditioning if you will.  We can change our minds about things, we can change our preferences, but (and excuse me for saying so, I mean no offense) it sounds like you don't much want to try to change.

Your OP is so much about you and what you want, and how he is getting what he wants.  Perhaps some resentment in there, some unhappiness, and lots of frustrations.  So all I can add is that we cannot change others, we can only change ourselves.  In that, you can change how you react to what your husband does.  He will only change if he wants to.

I wish you well Fishy,

Faith




LadyPact -> RE: rocky d/s relationships (9/12/2010 12:10:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fishoutofwater

@Ladypact: I used to play with other people at the club with his permission (to them) to play with me. We very rarely attend that club now, and very few people there are interested in my level of play (basically it has been taken over by a lot of very young people who all want a light spanking) Sorry, I guess I didn't explain that part:(

No need to be sorry.  It can be hard to write an original that includes everything without it being the length of a book.  I thought I was reading it wrong.

I don't want to negate subfaith's good advice.  The thing is, I'm not submissive and I don't think immediately of bending to how another person wants things.

If it were Me, I'd be asking to attend the club more often for those times that you can find someone who wants to play at your level and asking if arrangements can be made about playing with those people more frequently.  (Just on a personal note, I'd be disappointed if the public space that I went to play had become 'lighter' as well.  That's just Me.)  Also, can you talk about the idea of visiting your local munch?  It may be an avenue for you to meet different people who have different play styles.  Of course, all of this is completely dependent on what your Master decides in his authority.

I do hope this works out for you so that everyone's wants can be met.



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