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RE: Collars as Mere Symbols - 4/23/2006 1:19:47 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Collars are awesome.  I'm one of those horrible types who has a FEW collars and wear them according to mood and occasion.  I'm also not "collared" as in owned by anyone currently.

But that doesn't mean I don't think of collars I've worn and sigh.  There was a chick at the Arisia con in January who was wearing an identical collar to one I wore in a previous relationship- it was not a very common collar so I was very surprised to see her in it and it REALLY caught me emotionally.

There was a local couple who had one of those eternity locking collars that needed tools to open it as well and they always pronounced that as some symbol of how they would always be together.

Less than a year later unfortuantely, he left her, the collar is off and life hs gone on.

Your collar can be twine, steel, air, or nothing at all- it is simply a symbol.  If you don't have the commitment, no object or symbol in the world will make a difference.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to RiotGirl)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Collars as Mere Symbols - 4/23/2006 1:22:19 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ICGsteve

A wedding ring indentifies one as married, a collar indentifies one as owned, or more accuratly would identify one as owned if there was agreement about what the definition of "owned" is. Currently the collar has no firm meaning BEACAUSE slave has no firm meaning. If the community or an event sets a standard for what a collar means, that one is not entitled to wear one unless they feel that they as an individual accepts that meaning and conforms to the definition, then a collar would mean a lot more than it does not. Right now a collar means what ever the couple or small group (ie a poly relationship)   wants it to mean.

I don't care if you get every single other kinkster in the world to sign and ratify a definition of what a collar means and who is entitles to it- I'd still do exactly what I want and feel exactly how I feel and wear or not wear collars exactyl as I decided was best for me.

How I value a collar has NOTHING to do with what anyone else says. 

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to ICGsteve)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Collars as Mere Symbols - 4/23/2006 2:00:08 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross


Your collar can be twine, steel, air, or nothing at all- it is simply a symbol.  If you don't have the commitment, no object or symbol in the world will make a difference.


Great post.  It is really the commitment and meaning behind the collar which makes the symbol of the collar so significant.  I recall telling my  Master, "i don't care if you tie a shoe string around my neck, that you even want to collar me is amazing enough."

Having said that, the collar he did choose to give me has great meaning to me, due to everything it signifies.  What surprised me further is that he bought himself a matching bracelet.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Collars as Mere Symbols - 4/23/2006 3:11:03 PM   
pekusa


Posts: 4
Joined: 11/6/2005
Status: offline 		The collar is a symbol indeed. Not just mere, as was stated. The collar is and of itself what is the meaning of symbol by definition. "A thing that represents or stands for something else, especially a material object representing something abstract." That's exactly what a collar symbolizes.

My sweet sub has recently been given a lovely silver choke collar. It can be worn at all times and is especially nice at bed time to tug on the loose end and have it encompass her neck snugly while she falls to sleep. The collar is the devotion to her submissiveness in our lifestyle. The gold rings on our hands signifies our love for each other in our marriage. Two very important symbols.

We have session collars that are made for different activities and we have different collars for public wear. But, my sweet little sub is working on getting her permanent collar to absolutely show her devotion as my submissive. With a nice little engraving on the inside.

Very, very significant symbols in our lifestyle. Very important.

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Collars as Mere Symbols - 4/23/2006 4:31:58 PM   
ICGsteve


Posts: 202
Joined: 2/2/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I don't care if you get every single other kinkster in the world to sign and ratify a definition of what a collar means and who is entitles to it- I'd still do exactly what I want and feel exactly how I feel and wear or not wear collars exactly as I decided was best for me.

How I value a collar has NOTHING to do with what anyone else says. 


Which would always be your right. It would also be the right of the event or organization that defined the meaning of  collar to banish you if you continued to refuse to accept the community standard. The group would lose your company, but then everyone who remained in collar would be rewarded with the increased value of the collar once its symbolism grew from having meaning only with-in the relationship to having meaning for everyone.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Collars as Mere Symbols - 4/23/2006 4:39:03 PM   
feastie


Posts: 1793
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ICGsteve

A wedding ring indentifies one as married, a collar indentifies one as owned, or more accuratly would identify one as owned if there was agreement about what the definition of "owned" is. Currently the collar has no firm meaning BEACAUSE slave has no firm meaning. If the community or an event sets a standard for what a collar means, that one is not entitled to wear one unless they feel that they as an individual accepts that meaning and conforms to the definition, then a collar would mean a lot more than it does not. Right now a collar means what ever the couple or small group (ie a poly relationship)   wants it to mean.


By your own words, a wedding ring or collar is a means of identification.  Whether or not that identification is true or meshes with your personal beliefs is another thing altogether...and truly, none of your business.  A person and their relationships are their business and their business only. 

(in reply to ICGsteve)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Collars as Mere Symbols - 4/23/2006 5:45:38 PM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Yes, a collar is merely a symbol of what 2 (or more) share.  They make it what it is.  I guess another significance would be wearing it among other lifestylers, as they would understand that it represents some sort of "ownership" (note, I am not talking about collars of "consideration" or "training").

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to feastie)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Collars as Mere Symbols - 4/23/2006 5:46:16 PM   
RiotGirl


Posts: 3149
Status: offline 		sounds like a pissing contest.  You know i once heard the funniest thing.  Forgot the guys name, but he was working and some really big dude and him basically started getting into a testarone match.  "whose better, whose bigger"  Kind of like "my penis is bigger then yours"  So the guy, pulls down his pants and says  "ok lets see whose got the bigger penis"

i about died laughing.. and granted he said it better and he didnt use the word penis.

heh

(in reply to feastie)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Collars as Mere Symbols - 4/23/2006 5:59:55 PM   
ICGsteve


Posts: 202
Joined: 2/2/2005
Status: offline 		Rings identify identity, have nothing to do with beliefs. By wearing a wedding ring one says "I am married". Married it is agreed means married in the eyes of the law. A collar could signal one's identity, if wearing a collar had meaning. It does now only in the relationship, or should I say some relationships. If I see a woman in  a collar I have no ideas what it means. I could ask her and she could say that she is a slave but that does not tell me much either. I could talk with her for an half an hour and get some sense of what being a slave means to her, but then no one is ever going to hold her to it. She has no reason to tell the truth other than personal integrity, and has many others have pointed out a lot of people seem to lack this quality,  If she was faced with a standard and then wore a collar even though she does not believe in the group definition she would be found out eventually, and would then be labeled dishonest.

Couples like all individuals have every right to do what they want, but groups like all groups have no need to allow behavior they don't approve of. If collars had group significance people could still be who ever they wanted to be, however they may  not be able to be dishonest or hide who they are. In the US in most places when you go to vote you have to say what you are (Dem, rep, ind). What ever gave you the idea that BDSM'ers have some right to not identify themselves? We do so long as the group does not demand self identification, but the group can at anytime change its mind. It is time for the BDSM community to change its mind.  

(in reply to feastie)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Collars as Mere Symbols - 4/23/2006 6:05:21 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ICGsteve
What ever gave you the idea that BDSM'ers have some right to not identify themselves? We do so long as the group does not demand self identification, but the group can at anytime change its mind. It is time for the BDSM community to change its mind.  

There's quite a large difference between identifying under a common banner and excluding those who don't share particular rituals and perspectives.

We have a leather pride flag, we have flagging itself, we have other flags and many other symbols of "wiitwd."  No one is suggesting we shouldn't use symbols and use them as we want to identify ourselves.

But that's very different than suggesting we deny someone a place in our community because "you can't have two masters so you aren't really a slave and thus can't be collared" or "you can't be a slave and have a job and thus can't really be collared" and so on and so forth.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to ICGsteve)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Collars as Mere Symbols - 4/23/2006 6:31:19 PM   
ICGsteve


Posts: 202
Joined: 2/2/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

There's quite a large difference between identifying under a common banner and excluding those who don't share particular rituals and perspectives.

We have a leather pride flag, we have flagging itself, we have other flags and many other symbols of "wiitwd."  No one is suggesting we shouldn't use symbols and use them as we want to identify ourselves.

But that's very different than suggesting we deny someone a place in our community because "you can't have two masters so you aren't really a slave and thus can't be collared" or "you can't be a slave and have a job and thus can't really be collared" and so on and so forth.


What ever gave you the idea that a group definition of slave with its symbol of a collar would get into such petty detail about how one lives? Maybe we could have many colors of collar and get into such stuff, but that is silly isn't it.

A collar would be a self identifier about who one is. No one other than the slave and master would decide  if they fit the definition or not, and the definition would be simple. Hopefully it would be a standard oath that one takes when they accept the collar, such as "I pledge to serve, honor and obey my master with out question and at all times to the best of my ability". Something like that, simple and open to interpretation with-in the relationship but also binding in a broad sense if one is going to wear a collar. If you are in collar and start to mouth off to your master in public everyone is going to know one of two things is going on, either you are in collar under false pretenses or else you are not a good slave. Don't you see how community standards would actually improve the experience and not take anything away from your freedom of choice or freedom to be who you want? The only thing that you are not free to do is claim that you are a slave and then  in an outrageous manor not   behave as one. That alone will get you in trouble, as it should.  Every group will of course develop customs about how one interacts with slaves, like when are you allowed to approach them and in  what manor do you address them, and when do you need to ask the master's permission etc. This will also improve the experience in my opinion, and again nothing  is set in stone. The group will develop customs that work, that most people see the value in, and that sets the right atmosphere.

< Message edited by ICGsteve -- 4/23/2006 6:32:35 PM >

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Collars as Mere Symbols - 4/23/2006 6:40:33 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ICGsteve
The group will develop customs that work, that most people see the value in, and that sets the right atmosphere.

But we already have.

We already do.

No, I don't see the value in having an exclusionistic perspective- saying "if a person who professes to be a slave acts in X, Y and Z manner, that person will be eliminated from our community."

I'm just an inclusionist, and judging one's orientation based on one's action is impossible and pointless. 

I completely agree that if enough people get organized to the point that they want to be exclusionist, then they certainly should go with that and exclude whoever they feel is inappropriate for them.  ClubFem is a great example of that.

But suggesting that "we all" do that just isn't my idea of paradise.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to ICGsteve)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Collars as Mere Symbols - 4/23/2006 6:44:07 PM   
RiotGirl


Posts: 3149
Status: offline 		Gee would you two get the hint and stop showing off your genitals in the thread.  Yer totally OFF TOPIC  *you know there is a forum for that*  Go pee, go flame, go insult, go argue some where else.  Plus what you all are argueing about is kind of boring, no offense, and even though i try and read it, i gots to skip it.  go out for a cup of coffee atleast! 

ICG - understand that LA is feeling slightly threatened as she chooses to wear a collar and is not owned.

LA - understand that ICG feels that what you choose to do denotes the value of a collar.

Neither of you are right.  Nor wrong i suppose.  Agree to disagre and go along.   Could always kiss and make up.. or ya could just ignore what i'm saying again.  LOL

(in reply to ICGsteve)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Collars as Mere Symbols - 4/23/2006 6:48:30 PM   
RiotGirl


Posts: 3149
Status: offline 		As a side note, after being bound up and before he gagged and hooded me, as he was locking all locks and what not.. he grabbed my collar and locked it back around my neck with a different lock, locking all the keys away in a lock box.. so i cant go around enjoying my little on/off curiousity.  LOL and he made it tighter, so now its a constant awareness thing.  As it used to be loose (i've sensitive skin) and well after over a year i tend to not feel it as much.

where's the bolt cutters.. hmmmmm.. i wonder if anything would happen if i take a pair of bolt cutters to the lock?

you know they say, curiousity killed the cat

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Collars as Mere Symbols - 4/23/2006 6:49:56 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RiotGirl
ICG - understand that LA is feeling slightly threatened as she chooses to wear a collar and is not owned.

Uhhh no I don't.  The only way I'd feel threatened online is if my bank sent me an email about being overdrawn.  I understand the ICG finds strength in harmony, power in solidarity. 

He's right on that point- a common belief is a strong thing.  A standard helps people compare and feel secure in their position.

It's just not going to work- we value things too disparately, our perspectives ARE too varied to do what he is suggesting on any large scale at this point.

And while I understand stength in harmony, I also see strength in diversity as well.
quote:


LA - understand that ICG feels that what you choose to do denotes the value of a collar.

I don't think he's suggested that he considers what I do specifically to denote the value of a collar.  His point is far more general.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to RiotGirl)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Collars as Mere Symbols - 4/23/2006 7:40:29 PM   
feastie


Posts: 1793
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline 		The widow/er that wears his/her ring isn't married any longer.  The person that wears a ring that might be mistaken for a wedding band or engagement ring, for that matter, but isn't married, is still wearing a symbol.  The person that is married and has a metal allergy doesn't wear a ring at all, but neither does she wear a scarlet "M" on her chest either.  It's what that symbol means to that person that is important, not what it means to the rest of us.

The fact that we cannot be stuffed into certain little boxes is what makes us interesting.


(in reply to ICGsteve)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Collars as Mere Symbols - 4/23/2006 8:12:54 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: feastie


The fact that we cannot be stuffed into certain little boxes is what makes us interesting.


Unless of course, being stuffed into boxes is your fetish
Sorry, couldn't resist....one of those nights......

(in reply to feastie)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Collars as Mere Symbols - 4/23/2006 10:16:15 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		The collar is wrapped around my power. It squeezes my heart and the thought of it no longer being there panics me. Shakes, cold sweats the works. I can't imagine it ever being gone and yet it's not a physical thing at all. Yes, I can have a piece of leather which is wrapped around my throat and call that thing the collar, but it's not. The reason I say that if Himself takes the collar it's because that unleashes the power around which it's wrapped and when that all flows back to me, we are no more.. we can't be Master/slave without it because it is what contains the beast and ties me to him. The truth of the collar which belongs to Himself lays around that power and it is not mere symbol. It is what gives me life as a slave. Take it away, the slave dies. Pure and simple.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Collars as Mere Symbols - 4/24/2006 5:14:49 AM   
RiotGirl


Posts: 3149
Status: offline 		Interesting take Bita and Owned.. i agree.."just cos its not my kink doesnt mean its not your kink"

heh.. i can understand where being stuff in a box is enjoyable.  Of course there wouldnt be much stuffing.. har!  i'm little..  

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Collars as Mere Symbols - 4/24/2006 5:32:15 AM   
feastie


Posts: 1793
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline 		A box is one thing, a CERTAIN box is another kettle of fish altogether.


(in reply to RiotGirl)
Profile   Post #: 40
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