RE: Political Landscape

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: Political Landscape

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Political Landscape

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Political Landscape - 9/17/2010 8:07:21 AM

Moonhead

Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Is that a "2" I see starting to flash up around the temple on his avatar?

So just how many jokes have I cracked about how much I hate everything about America?
Come to that, can you name any of the eeeevil lieberals on here who have ever done that?
It'd be a pity if Ron was right and you were just inventing stuff to suit your partisan ideological stance, after all.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 21

RE: Political Landscape - 9/17/2010 8:11:07 AM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

Try to direct your replies appropriately, Moon. I am not the one who made such a claim, and you know damn well where I stand on positions you have taken and the language you have chosen to utilize doing so, and what I believe such choices say about your character.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 22

RE: Political Landscape - 9/17/2010 8:11:24 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Ron, you might want to tone that down a bit before the mods get wind of it, mate.

I did, but didnt feel good about it

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 23

RE: Political Landscape - 9/17/2010 8:12:45 AM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

Ron I read the original and I just gotta say...........You are my HERO!!!

I wanna be you when I grow up.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 9/17/2010 8:13:06 AM >

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 24

RE: Political Landscape - 9/17/2010 8:20:22 AM

Moonhead

Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Try to direct your replies appropriately, Moon. I am not the one who made such a claim, and you know damn well where I stand on positions you have taken and the language you have chosen to utilize doing so, and what I believe such choices say about your character.

Mea culpa, old boy. I sometimes have trouble telling you and Sanity apart.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 25

RE: Political Landscape - 9/17/2010 12:56:27 PM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
People who believe any old bollocks versus people who are a touch more sceptical....no matter the self-proclaimed political persuasion....

Conservatives like to believe that they're exactly the sorts who are 'a touch more sceptical', NG. (Sorry about my sparseness in the upper balcony area, btw).

Difficult to be idealistic about anything when all you have is a plot of land...a few tomatoes....and living in fear of anything that moves...including the wind....just defeating the object of my own thread....

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 26

RE: Political Landscape - 9/17/2010 12:59:27 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

I am an idea person, not a label person. Show me consistently good ideas and I might support you, don't and I won't

The thing that drives me crazy is that the word "ideologue" has a bad connotation to it. What is wrong with being passionate about an idea? What is wrong about supporting an idea? It isn't about parties for me, it is about the ideas they are supposed to espouse and being true to them. I find it ironic that people who support ideas and not movements or people get derided, while sellouts are thought to be "moderate"

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 27

RE: Political Landscape - 9/17/2010 1:05:13 PM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Gott mit Uns!!!!

Except god didn't bother to inform them that you need a degree of political nous to get what you want....which is a point that would lend toward Pahunks thread in that there's a marked difference between the Germans and the Yanks in that respect....

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 28

RE: Political Landscape - 9/17/2010 1:12:20 PM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I am an idea person, not a label person. Show me consistently good ideas and I might support you, don't and I won't

The thing that drives me crazy is that the word "ideologue" has a bad connotation to it. What is wrong with being passionate about an idea? What is wrong about supporting an idea? It isn't about parties for me, it is about the ideas they are supposed to espouse and being true to them. I find it ironic that people who support ideas and not movements or people get derided, while sellouts are thought to be "moderate"

There's a lot to be said for being honest...

And reading Edmund Burke....it's hard to argue with someone who predicted the worst excesses of the French Revolution and the problems associated with being an idealist....

All the evidence suggests that you simply can't reorder society based on grand ideas....it's a recipe for chaos....

My solution would be slow and steady wins the race...a sort of pragmatic English Liberalism....but then I would say that.....

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 29

RE: Political Landscape - 9/17/2010 4:13:00 PM

Sanity

Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline

Heh heh heh heh heh heh heh....

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Is that a "2" I see starting to flash up around the temple on his avatar?

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 30

RE: Political Landscape - 9/17/2010 4:54:47 PM

Jeffff

Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline

Tell us again about your, "independent" leanings?

After a little time away, I can't believe the douchery I read here.

_____________________________

"If you don't live it, it won't come out your horn." Charlie Parker

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 31

RE: Political Landscape - 9/18/2010 1:07:43 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

So anyway....do you have much in common with someone who simply parrots the party line...whatever the political persuasion.....or do you feel you have more in common with someone who employs a more critical approach to politics? I t

I'm not even sure whether or not Conservatism and Liberalism are relevant these days.....they certainly had a purpose in the 18th century....redistribution of power versus conserving the established institutions etc......but this argument really is redundant at this juncture. We're probably seeing this now in England where the three main parties have moved pretty much into the centre....particularly on economic issues.....and arguably the Labour Party has moved further to the right than the Conservative Party on social issues....which 100 years ago would have been unthinkable.

Seems times have changed....and people are arguing over dividing lines that aren't in line with the times.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Jeffff)

Post #: 32

RE: Political Landscape - 9/18/2010 1:13:06 AM

Vendaval

Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline

I am skeptical about human nature in general and politics in particular.

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 33

RE: Political Landscape - 9/18/2010 5:47:25 AM

Aneirin

Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

So anyway....do you have much in common with someone who simply parrots the party line...whatever the political persuasion.....or do you feel you have more in common with someone who employs a more critical approach to politics? I t

I'm not even sure whether or not Conservatism and Liberalism are relevant these days.....they certainly had a purpose in the 18th century....redistribution of power versus conserving the established institutions etc......but this argument really is redundant at this juncture. We're probably seeing this now in England where the three main parties have moved pretty much into the centre....particularly on economic issues.....and arguably the Labour Party has moved further to the right than the Conservative Party on social issues....which 100 years ago would have been unthinkable.

Seems times have changed....and people are arguing over dividing lines that aren't in line with the times.

Perhaps you are right, the parties of old are too old now and people realise that hence the low turn out at elections. There really is nothing to inspire those that do not vote and those that do, well perhaps a small percentage who believe in politics and the rest think they just ought to vote for what is basically the lesser of the evils that are presented.

What is required any more beyond the basic running of a country and the making sure what we have works, do we really need to progress via government 'ideas'. What are is the country in reality, a nation of people who wish only to live their lives, or a company where those on the board of directors derive the lions portion of the wealth and the people being the workers derive the least.

What Britain was at the time people had the least power was a machine of conquest and wealth generation for the few on the backs of the powerless, is it that now, I don't think so, yet those old minds wish to continue with what worked before, therefore the strategy is clear in order to get what they got in the past, they must steer the people/voters into what it is they have in mind.

In my mind,

Politics = power and power = wealth, and the overlord is Control

The same old human frailty that has gone on from the dawn of mankind, can we as a people evolve whilst we still cling to old stale ideas, I really doubt it, so we are stuck with the same old, same old same old dog chasing it's tail cycle for ever, until it is that something breaks out and changes the set ideas.

I believe in balance in all things, but whilst there is imbalance in society, the world, we can never evolve.

If it is that we as a species are meant to evolve or simply rise to a peak and then destroy ourselves as history has shown with the many great civilisations that have existed before, perhaps even decadence is the precursor for our destruction, rid the need to do for survival and boredom sets in.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 34

RE: Political Landscape - 9/18/2010 8:30:14 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

I am skeptical about human nature in general and politics in particular.

Go on then V....could get a decent converstion going here.....some details on the sceptical angle?...where exactly do you reserve judgement?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Vendaval)

Post #: 35

RE: Political Landscape - 9/18/2010 12:41:57 PM

Vendaval

Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline

Short reply since work is calling, first of all by paying attention to what people actually do rather than just what they say also by waiting until more information is available in many situations to make up my mind about an issue or a candidate.

Have to run, will write more later, have a good one, NG.

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 36

RE: Political Landscape - 9/18/2010 3:59:24 PM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Quite. A lot of them even deny that they're conservatives in the first place, don't they? All of these Republican voting independents who've been cropping up since the last election they had over there...

It's the "liberals" that keeps insisting that everyone call them "progressives" now.

Firm

Then you better stop that Firm.

Didn't you just tell me the other day you were a classical progressive?

Or was that classical liberal?

Oh, doesn't matter, they mean the same.

Either way you're still one of them commie pinkos.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 37

RE: Political Landscape - 9/19/2010 5:58:52 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I am an idea person, not a label person. Show me consistently good ideas and I might support you, don't and I won't

The thing that drives me crazy is that the word "ideologue" has a bad connotation to it. What is wrong with being passionate about an idea? What is wrong about supporting an idea? It isn't about parties for me, it is about the ideas they are supposed to espouse and being true to them. I find it ironic that people who support ideas and not movements or people get derided, while sellouts are thought to be "moderate"

Being an idealist...and I'm assuming you mean in terms of committed to ideals....rather than the Idealism of someone such as Hegel who placed spiritual and intellectual pursuits above the Materialism of some such as Marx.....does have negative connotations...particularly in Britain and the United States. Anglo-Saxon political philosopy....or British and US....do generally share certain core beliefs about human nature and the world.....the idea that people can be led astray by grand ideals being one....you'd be well received in France or Germany perhaps.

And there is some justification for the British and US way of looking at it......that being that those two countries have had stable..and successful histories....at least in part due to having stable political systems devoid of a series of revolutions driven by the idea that you can reorder society based on appeals to abstract notions such as reason and liberty.

A society which places ideals....or a preponderance on things connected with perception of the world....above the experience of human behaviour and how the world actually is.....does tend to be a turbulent one where people kill over ideas. In other societies which avoid the kill over ideas situation at any cost.....there is a price to be paid for that....and that price is a focus on a material life style at the expense of intellectualism. Which is better? Take your pick.

The interesting thing though is that the Anglo-Saxon model isn't that far removed from Machiavelli in that it assumes that people are dangerous and need their time occupied and minds turned away from grand ideals towards subservience.....only in the modern era this subservience is to a materialistic way of live i.e. the freedom to chase your interests providing you cause harm to no one else.....but nothing more.....it doesn't support groups of people getting together and striving for radical political change. Negative Freedom I think it's called in Berlinian terms.

And this model does have a dangerous component bound up in it......in that perhaps it denies the human spirit....if you believe there is such a thing as the human spirit....as it reduces people to deriving pleasure from consuming and owning things at the expense of intellectual pursuits or working together for the greater good.

Personally...I think there's room for both.....I don't get a great deal of pleasure from consuming things.....with the exception of food and holidays....I personally find reading and learning about something far more rewarding than owning a big house or an expensive car......but at the same time I do agree that people can be dangerous when it comes to grand ideals and any political system should guard against this in the interests of other sections of society not predisposed to radical political change.

And to answer your question: being passionate about an idea is not a problem....it's where that leads that is the problem....and it's what exactly is underlying that passion that is dubious......if an idea is simply an idea and certainly not the truth.....and if ideas evolve like any other part of human life....and if the value we place upon things are in many ways bound up with the circumstances of the time....then surely ideas are relative and there is nothing in them that make them worth fighting for....and if that's the case....then surely it's the human desire for power that drives the passion rather than the validity of the idea itself.

And in a roundabout way this comes back to the OP....in that there doesn't seem to be much of radical left or right these days.....most people conform to roughly similar political standards.....

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 38

RE: Political Landscape - 9/19/2010 8:45:04 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

Being an idealist...and I'm assuming you mean in terms of committed to ideals....rather than the Idealism of someone such as Hegel who placed spiritual and intellectual pursuits above the Materialism of some such as Marx.....does have negative connotations...particularly in Britain and the United States. Anglo-Saxon political philosopy....or British and US....do generally share certain core beliefs about human nature and the world.....the idea that people can be led astray by grand ideals being one....you'd be well received in France or Germany perhaps.

Yes, I meant having ideas that one believes in and works passionately for.

quote:

A society which places ideals....or a preponderance on things connected with perception of the world....above the experience of human behaviour and how the world actually is.....does tend to be a turbulent one where people kill over ideas. In other societies which avoid the kill over ideas situation at any cost.....there is a price to be paid for that....and that price is a focus on a material life style at the expense of intellectualism. Which is better? Take your pick.

There are all sorts of violence that can be undetected in a society that is "stable". There is structural violence, the violence of unequal wealth distribution in which a large portion of the populace works to support the top 5%, and then there is violence against elderly by not taking care of their needs, and the violence against children by not educating them properly. Just because a society has no war or revolution does not mean it isn't without violence on multiple levels.

quote:

And to answer your question: being passionate about an idea is not a problem....it's where that leads that is the problem....and it's what exactly is underlying that passion that is dubious......if an idea is simply an idea and certainly not the truth.....and if ideas evolve like any other part of human life....and if the value we place upon things are in many ways bound up with the circumstances of the time....then surely ideas are relative and there is nothing in them that make them worth fighting for....and if that's the case....then surely it's the human desire for power that drives the passion rather than the validity of the idea itself.

Some ideas are so threatening to the status quo that they engender violence for their very existence. We fought a cold war against some ideas, just because some people didn't like our ideas. So I suppose it depends on which side of the idea thing you are, abolitionists were passionate about their ideas too? Was their cause just?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 39

RE: Political Landscape - 9/19/2010 12:32:07 PM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

There are all sorts of violence that can be undetected in a society that is "stable". There is structural violence, the violence of unequal wealth distribution in which a large portion of the populace works to support the top 5%, and then there is violence against elderly by not taking care of their needs, and the violence against children by not educating them properly. Just because a society has no war or revolution does not mean it isn't without violence on multiple levels.

That's not violence in the sense of political upheaval Julia.....you're talking of ideas and principles.......

And you'd have to explain on the whole....why the US population on average has a far more comfortable existence than say the Russian population yet this is detrimental to the US. You can always find a flaw in a system...that's a given...but in order to support your point you need to explain why it would be a more attractive proposition to be a member of a society other than the US...particularly thinking of the more revolutionary inclined societies here....

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Some ideas are so threatening to the status quo that they engender violence for their very existence. We fought a cold war against some ideas, just because some people didn't like our ideas. So I suppose it depends on which side of the idea thing you are, abolitionists were passionate about their ideas too? Was their cause just?

Well...yeah...relativism.....cultural relativism...and I'd support that.....but then isn't that notion a fly in the ointment of idealism?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 40

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 next > >>

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Political Landscape

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.125