RE: Internal Slavery

RE: Internal Slavery (Full Version)

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Rule -> RE: Internal Slavery (4/23/2006 4:24:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RiotGirl Hm <quirks a cynical unbelieving eye at everyone> You must surely have me mistaken. Indeed, surely everone is mistaken. It is just coincidence that most are mistaken in the same way. [8\|] quote: ORIGINAL: RiotGirl Thank you all. Anytime. [;)] You cannot escape your destiny, RiotGirl. You may struggle and riot, but in the end you will surrender and all will be well. [;)]

KnightofMists -> RE: Internal Slavery (4/23/2006 4:57:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RiotGirl chuckles> ooooh you. Okay, my logical argument is that anyone can do anything in which they will to do. i can go logically kick the cat. Granted i wont, but i logically can. Its illogical to say "i cant leave" because i have two feet, two legs and they both work fine. i can walk down the street cant i? (with his permission of course). Heck when he says "get me a drink" i'm able to walk to get one. So therefore we know i can walk, all my parts work fairly well. So to be unable to leave.. its impossible. One foot infront of the other. Plus everyone has full control, capability of themselves. "Anyone "Can" do anything in which they "Actually" do" this is logical This doesn't equate to "Anyone Will do anything which they Can do" this is illogical. Just because you can walk with your two feet out of a relationship.. Doesn't mean you will do it or that you even can do it. Everyone makes choices in their life and are faced with situations that constantly restricted our ability to actually do some things. I remember my little boy crawling into a sloped swiming pool. He kept crawling until the water was over his head and he just kept crawling. His awareness of the danger was completely none existent. After several attempts and corrections on the part of his mother and myself, his choices changed. He no longer chose to crawl until he was under the water. He could do it... yes, but he chose not to do it. HE Learned! Became self aware of the consequence of his choice. We learn from our choices and become aware of consequences of these choices. Maslow's Hierachy of needs had it figured pretty good to some extent. We learn to protect our selve in a basic physiological and safety sense and we grow from there. We move to Love/Belonging and eventually to Self-Actualization. We continuely build and learn from our experiences, continue to make choices. choices of doing some actions and choices "NOT" to do others. Our Lessons learned will restrict us. In time, what we consider as a choice of "NOT" doing... grows... to I can't do that. The negative consequence so significant that it would be illogical to consider. This is not a submissive thing... It's a Human thing.

babygirlangel -> RE: Internal Slavery (4/23/2006 5:29:49 PM)
riotgirl, i hear and feel what you are saying, only i havent met that One that i surrender to... my mind goes.. why should i do that? what is the reasoning behind this? im not sure i can ever submit to someone else totally because of all the questioning in my mind.. and trust...trust is a foreign word to me. tell me.. why should i trust You? what makes You more able to make the right choices? i feel these are valid questions, though i dont usually ask them right out. maybe this isnt what you were meaning.. but im still looking for the logic.

cillydom -> RE: Internal Slavery (4/23/2006 5:55:03 PM)
Perhaps enslavement happens when the relationship becomes more important to you than what you may have to do to keep it.

RiotGirl -> RE: Internal Slavery (4/23/2006 6:13:34 PM)
Thats a new thought Cilly.. one i will contemplate it.. as i will the rest of this thread. Again, i'm much obliged (thankful) of all comments. i thank everyone for listening as i move further along the road of discovery

babygirlangel -> RE: Internal Slavery (4/23/2006 6:13:57 PM)
i dunno why, but i found that to be very profound

Rule -> RE: Internal Slavery (4/23/2006 6:24:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: babygirlangel riotgirl, i hear and feel what you are saying, only i havent met that One that i surrender to... The desire and need to obey is what characterizes a natural slave, even before she meets the One. He will cross your path, but you must recognize him. quote: ORIGINAL: babygirlangel my mind goes.. why should i do that? what is the reasoning behind this? The mind consists of three seamless parts, three lovers: soul, ratio and ego (self). Only the self goes, thereby strengthening the other parts of the mind. Your self is only the temporary caretaker of the body and the other two parts of the mind. When the sub is united with her owner, the self departs and the slave is born, a new being. Slaves are essential to humanity and the functioning of the universe. quote: ORIGINAL: babygirlangel im not sure i can ever submit to someone else totally because of all the questioning in my mind.. Once you surrender the questioning also goes away. quote: ORIGINAL: babygirlangel and trust...trust is a foreign word to me. tell me.. why should i trust You? what makes You more able to make the right choices? The slave trusts when the slave feels safe. It is then that she may transform into a true slave. It may very well be that the slave is more intelligent than the master. It is not the ability to make the right choices that qualifies someone as a master, though. It is because the slave is part of the master that she trusts the master. The slave enhances the master, provides him with skills and abilities and intelligence that a normal person must do without, makes him superhuman. To be a slave is to obey your master. Like the body obeys the brain. It would be silly and damaging if the body resisted the directions given by the brain, wouldn't it? quote: ORIGINAL: babygirlangel i feel these are valid questions, though i dont usually ask them right out. maybe this isnt what you were meaning.. but im still looking for the logic. It is the natural order of things between slave and master. Do not ask why the sun shines. There have been written volumes on that subject, but those do not produce heat or light. Simply accept that the sun shines.

ExistentialSteel -> RE: Internal Slavery (4/23/2006 6:44:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cillydom Perhaps enslavement happens when the relationship becomes more important to you than what you may have to do to keep it. Yeah, I agree with the others that Cilly said it best with that. I would think that many M/s relationships come to this. Subs, choose well because it will eventually come down to what your Dom will make you do, knowing that you will do most anything to keep the relationship intact.

RiotGirl -> RE: Internal Slavery (4/23/2006 6:53:17 PM)
quote: Subs, choose well because it will eventually come down to what your Dom will make you do, knowing that you will do most anything to keep the relationship intact. Isnt that like a manipulation tactic? Some sort of sinister game? Should i now go and stand up and REFUSE to be manipulated? Granted though, i disagree with my situation. As he most always waits till i'm willing. i sort of disagree about the word "make" As NOBODY can make me do a damn thing i dont want to. My favorite thing is "i only ever do what i want do, i might take how you feel into consideration, but dont be fooled, i only do what i want to do" He doesnt make me do a dang thing i dont want to do! hrrrrrrrrump. He orders and then i decide if want to. Generally i do in some round about way, but i'm never "made" to do anything. Course he can turn my own will against me, but then generally i'm not too upset about it, cept when i think about it.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Internal Slavery (4/23/2006 7:52:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cillydom Perhaps enslavement happens when the relationship becomes more important to you than what you may have to do to keep it. What an excellent post.

LaMspeach -> RE: Internal Slavery (4/23/2006 11:08:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RiotGirl whoa!!!! LAM has a slave? good golly how do you put up with him <weg> Congratulations! Thanks, riot, but I've been his slave for two years.

SusanofO -> RE: Internal Slavery (4/24/2006 1:12:48 AM)
Good thread! I think if someone wants to keep or forge some type of "relationship" - hopefully both Doms-and or Masters, as well as a submissive or a slave are doing things to HELP any process of becoming "internally enslaved"(I include submissives here because I'd bet there submissives and slaves in relationships who consider themselves on the way to (though not yet "arrived" - as far as becoming "internally enslaved)." this last comment isn't meant to start a debate between what is a "true" submissive vs. a "true" slave, btw - there are scads of those threads here ...personally I've resolved that concept for myself. There is thread I liked here last week titled MENTAL BONDAGE (some may have seen that;I thought it had a pretty good definition of methods of inducing it - I imagine some people may equate the two in some situations (or not)). I think there must be Doms and-or Masters who think they are "internally enslaving" someone when they're really not taking the time to read that person very well (and I realize all people make mistakes and that getting to know someone is a process, and that trust is earned on both sides). And so I imagine there must be submissives who think they are responding well to someone else's "cues" and their expectations as far as becoming "internally enslaved" but might not be altogether doing that (in which case it's probably the Master's call to bring it to their attention, I'd think, if he wants to do that). Even if someone is an experienced so-called "bottom" or "top" , I'd bet they might know what any process in becoming "internally enslaved" is for them and what they require to have it meet someone else's definition (or be willing to find out and make a decison about whether to pursue an activity with someone). Realize I may be stating the obvious to more experienced folk (I am relatively "new")[:)] From my own submissive perspective, if someone is a true Master they know (or are at least willing to contemplate if they don't) what the process of "internal enslavement" means to them personally - and could explain it to a submissive or a slave, if they asked that question. Ditto for a submissive in explaining what she thinks it means (to a Dom or Master and trying one's best to do it). In my case, listening to the answer sans complete* wishful thinking (but including some trust and hope) about whether a person really means what they are saying is something I consider important (and, in my situation for now, I'm trying to remember it in general - it and doesn't apply to anyone at CM or who is on this thread). If people end up, at the end of the day - not being "on the same page" -having stated and listened to eachother's expectations and made a real effort to intuit eachother's hopes upfront, and realize it's a process - then I guess they then decide - if they have a parting of the ways re: Any "relationship actvity" - how much yearning - for "what is happening", or "might be", or "could have been" they can stomach (and whether they make an effort to remain friends who can contact eachother, in any case, or not). This has been a clarifying thread for me. Glad it was available to read. - susanofO

ExistentialSteel -> RE: Internal Slavery (4/24/2006 2:04:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RiotGirl Isnt that like a manipulation tactic? Some sort of sinister game? Should i now go and stand up and REFUSE to be manipulated? Granted though, i disagree with my situation. As he most always waits till i'm willing. i sort of disagree about the word "make" As NOBODY can make me do a damn thing i dont want to. My favorite thing is "i only ever do what i want do, i might take how you feel into consideration, but dont be fooled, i only do what i want to do" He doesnt make me do a dang thing i dont want to do! hrrrrrrrrump. He orders and then i decide if want to. Generally i do in some round about way, but i'm never "made" to do anything. Course he can turn my own will against me, but then generally i'm not too upset about it, cept when i think about it. RGirl, that post was insightful and funny as it showed your dilemma. Yeah, my comments did bring up the possibility of manipulation or we could call it an awareness of what happens emotionally and use of the process. I pointed out a development that often occurs. A Dom-type may give a little, pull back a bit and leave it to the sub to perform in the way he chooses if she wants to get back in his warm and fuzzy environment..

RiotGirl -> RE: Internal Slavery (4/24/2006 4:21:35 AM)
quote: RGirl, that post was insightful and funny as it showed your dilemma. Yeah, my comments did bring up the possibility of manipulation or we could call it an awareness of what happens emotionally and use of the process. I pointed out a development that often occurs. A Dom-type may give a little, pull back a bit and leave it to the sub to perform in the way he chooses if she wants to get back in his warm and fuzzy environment.. heh, glad you thought it funny. If there is one thing thats enjoyable its amusing others, granted you cant always do it, so you must settle for amusing yourself = ) Hmm "we could call it" You know, i think he does that! Still doesnt make me! He does pull back.. how very odd.. you know i've thought about that.. But, i'm stubborn and thickheaded and strong willed and depending on whats going on i'll hold out for a good while = ) Course the longer i hold out the more unhappy i become, the more cranky, and generally miserable. Sometimes, i think, he sees that i just dont "get it" and he brings me home so to speak and starts over. hehe Trying to teach me a variety of other things that i'm just too stubborn or thickheaded to catch on. Some of em, i dont think i really want to learn. Though i have said a million times that for me 1 + 2 doesnt equal 3. i can find a million ways to get 1 + 2 to equal many things, but no i'm still supposed to figure it out. Be much easier if he just said it! You know, i've been holding out for awhile, refusing to allow my self to fall into that warm fuzzy place. Variety of reasons, and no matter what he did, i wouldnt allow it to really change my headspace. Even as miserable as i was, i managed to be content i suppose? Though after reading this thread last night, god only knows why.. maybe i should go re examine things.. i went and found it. Twas quite nice actually. i cut off my nose despite my face all the time...

RiotGirl -> RE: Internal Slavery (4/24/2006 4:31:41 AM)
quote: This has been a clarifying thread for me. Glad it was available to read. - susanofO Awesome that you got something from it and that it clarified things for you.

RiotGirl -> RE: Internal Slavery (4/24/2006 4:54:53 AM)
quote: "Anyone "Can" do anything in which they "Actually" do" this is logical This doesn't equate to "Anyone Will do anything which they Can do" this is illogical. Just because you can walk with your two feet out of a relationship.. Doesn't mean you will do it or that you even can do it. Everyone makes choices in their life and are faced with situations that constantly restricted our ability to actually do some things. I remember my little boy crawling into a sloped swiming pool. He kept crawling until the water was over his head and he just kept crawling. His awareness of the danger was completely none existent. After several attempts and corrections on the part of his mother and myself, his choices changed. He no longer chose to crawl until he was under the water. He could do it... yes, but he chose not to do it. HE Learned! Became self aware of the consequence of his choice. We learn from our choices and become aware of consequences of these choices. Maslow's Hierachy of needs had it figured pretty good to some extent. We learn to protect our selve in a basic physiological and safety sense and we grow from there. We move to Love/Belonging and eventually to Self-Actualization. We continuely build and learn from our experiences, continue to make choices. choices of doing some actions and choices "NOT" to do others. Our Lessons learned will restrict us. In time, what we consider as a choice of "NOT" doing... grows... to I can't do that. The negative consequence so significant that it would be illogical to consider. This is not a submissive thing... It's a Human thing. Hmmmm.. you know. You're right. Which of course makes me wrong =( So, one can actually use to feet to walk out of a relationship, which doesnt mean they will or can. With your Maslow's Hiearchy of needs, our lessons restrict us by learned consequences. Things grow untiil its "i cant" as its illogical to do. Which you are right. It is utterly illogical for me to ever walk out. The consquence of Not having him are way too great. i could equate it too walking off a cliff or the sun going out. Maybe silly and extreme - but i see the loss of Him as utter chaos, loss of safety, stability, momentary sanity, generally just floating around with chaos around me. Trying to figure out how to stand back on my own feet. Extreme and as silly as it sounds, i see myself shattering and having to pick up the pieces. i prolly wouldnt put the puzzle back together right again. Yet generally, most can not comphrend those feelings and think i'm nuts. But i'm not, i'm dead on right. i know excatly what would happen. Therefore, in agreement with this post. The fact that its "illogical" to leave.. would give another explanation other then IE.

barelynangel -> RE: Internal Slavery (4/24/2006 5:12:27 AM)
RiotGirl, i haven't read all the replies here but perhaps you are not giving enough credit to the One who owns and masters someone. To me, slavery is a reaction not an actionary. I react as slave to mastery and enslavement, this is what makes me enslaveable and in the end, a slave. I cannot make myself a slave, i can only recognize slave -- the Man will make me a slave because i will react as one not act as one. (the difference is who has control -- if i act, i do, if i react, he does). That, to me, is a mistake that many people make they try and "act" as slave, and when the reaction bowls them over they have no clue what is going on because "acting" as slave means you are still in control, reacting as slave means you have no control, not even over yourself in your reactions to your Master. When the reaction occurs and they are still trying to "act" slave, it gets cross purposes and they fight the reaction because they are not in control and they still try and "act" which puts them in control. (i hope this makes sense). The choice of my enslavement is his, not yours. All one can do is consciously consent to what he wishes, but to me that is just dotting the i's and crossing the t's of legalities, slavery is not about legalities but about instinct. The enslavement is what is internal, your reaction to such is internal. Your reaction to his action of enslavement is what is slave. Its the natural instincts of yours that make you feel like two people or like you are someone in who is not in control of herself. Well to put it bluntly, you aren't. He is. You can think all you want, however, the slave will react and that is where your fear is coming in. You can't control you. Well, you aren't suppose to. What you are fighting against isn't internal slavery, for it sounds like you are already enslaved, what you are fighting against is your natural reactions which makes you slave. This isn't about physical actions of you, kneeling, obeying, leaving... this is about reactions of you to him, his mastery of you, his enslavement of you. Its instinctual for you, that pull to him is something that just is natural for you. As you progress in your enslavement throughout your relationship with him, you will at times fight against it, his enslavement etc. There is no help for it, you will be changing, you will be progressing and on some basic level at times, you will feel the power quivering within you. The power you are feeling is him. He more than likely expects your fight, he will probably know when its gonna happen before you do. There is nothing wrong with fighting it (erm lol well thinking you can fight it) women who are enslaved do so, and will do so throughout. That is as natural as her reactions to him as the fighting is conscious and her reaction is instinctual. But what keeps a owman as slave, is Him. His ownership, master and his enslavement. what you are contemplating here is that you somehow have choosen to be "slave." More than likely, you recognized slave but the chice was his in the end, because he decided to enslave you. Which could be the basis for your own confusion, you are trying to think as a free person, you are struggling for your autonomy. Not that you really want it, but your mind is thinking you do. Slavery happens, in my opinion, because of the Man. Your mind is fighting what the slave in you already knows and does. Slavery is reactionary. People can kick and scream and stamp their feet that it is a choice, however, when it comes to being slave, it is reactionary to enslavement. okay i think i repeated myself enough lol.. sorry am multitasking and trying to get ready for work. I wish you well in your journey, winks don't forget your seatbelt. angel

RiotGirl -> RE: Internal Slavery (4/24/2006 6:46:26 AM)
Angel, That made a great deal of sense. To clear something up really quickly, i dont act as a slave. i refuse to act in my life. Though i possibly could and would prolly be really good at it, i refuse to act it out. i only move in any direction based on whats inside of me. i refuse to play at this. Though maybe you mean "act" as concious "obeying" things. Like kneeling and doing stuff. You did make alot of sense. LOL i am not contemplating a decision to be "slave". i could prolly come up with alot of low self esteem reasons as why i wouldnt contemplate the decision as well as alot of fear based thoughts on it. Granted it'd be a beautiful thing, just not something i can see myself reaching at this point in time. The reactionary part.. i can see that. i react to him all the time. Bit frustrating, especially if i am trying to not react to him. Generally leaving me confused, thinking "howd he do that" But i do react to him. Heck i even laugh at jokes i dont find funny, just cos i see him laughing. (imagine how hard it can be to say.. that isnt funny.. while laughing) You did make tons of sense and i think your post was very informative and i hope others get alot from it as well. Thanks for sharing!

cillydom -> RE: Internal Slavery (4/24/2006 7:47:23 AM)
I have trouble with the word true as applied to anything we do. And to elaborate on my “Perhaps enslavement happens when the relationship becomes more important to you than what you may have to do to keep it” this allows the same woman with the same level of need to be a slave to one and not another depending on what may be demanded of her. Say for instance one dom would want her to do something that may be detrimental to her children and she rightly refuses, then under this circumstance she wouldn’t be considered a slave to him. On the other hand with another dom that would not push her that far then she could be considered a slave, as she would be willing to do anything he wanted to keep the relationship, so enslavement is relative to the couple involved and their wants and needs.

VvShadowspawnvV -> RE: Internal Slavery (4/24/2006 12:14:09 PM)
hi RiotGirl =) For me, it means that i would do anything to have this chance to be with Him. Being with Him, and the way it makes me feel, is what i NEED. So maybe it's not "internal slavery"... maybe we should simply call it addiction. =P becca

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