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Training or brainwashing? - 9/27/2010 10:49:20 AM

Bravado

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How would you differentiate the two? Or are they two sides of the same coin? In truth they can be used interchangeably in many instances of BDSM, but "training" is the preferred term, as the latter is a bit too CIA or cult-conspiracy. I'd like to define the differences in my perspective, but be aware that it's mostly a matter of semantics.

Training is the conventional term for a sub being conditioned to do what a dom wants. It is, or rather should be, always consensual in that the sub chooses to be trained, and is by no means forced to or unconsciously lured into it. To clarify, training may require force, but it is morally wrong to force training unto a person who truly does not want to be trained.

Brainwashing is a concept that is far less appealing. Rather than taking a willing sub and doing whatever it may be they are willing to endure, I would imagine that someone who is brainwashed is an unwilling or unsuspecting person that by manner of force or trickery is made to think differently and thus behave in a way desired by the dom.

Most would feel that brainwashing crosses the line. In all fairness, I suppose it must be, for if a person seeks to be brainwashed it would no longer be so. Sort of like that tired old phrase, "you can't rape the willing." Instead, brainwashing would become a roleplay. There are many kinks that involve brainwashing, mostly involving kidnapping and/or switch fantasies (making a dom into a sub), and plenty of people try and/or succeed in making overwriting someone's mind in such fashion, but overall I'd say that the only people I would expect to have interest in it are TPE fetishists, but only some.

Then again, there are those with interest in hypnotism and "mind control," which is perhaps only possible through hypnotism (which I don't believe in but also don't deny) but is roleplayed with magic and medicines. But again we have to wonder, can brainwashing be consented? If a sub claims they desire to be hypnotized or otherwise mentally rewritten, isn't that simply training?

Maybe the difference is clear to you, but for me, it's an interesting subject worthy of discussion. That, and I do rather like the idea of brainwashing someone, although I believe that it is principally immoral. Not gravely so, but I would think it's as immoral as a TV commercial that misguides viewers into purchasing a product.

Thoughts.

Post #: 1

RE: Training or brainwashing? - 9/27/2010 11:05:33 AM

leadership527

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I have a thought. I avoid the term "brainwashing" because it is meaningless outside of fictional material and I don't do scenes. I do not see "training" and "conditioning" as the same thing -- both of which I do with Carol. Finally, as I noted on the consent thread, I don't require her consent and I especially don't measure my own sense of ethics with that as a yard stick.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Bravado)

Post #: 2

RE: Training or brainwashing? - 9/27/2010 11:14:21 AM

LadyRian

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I definitely wouldn't use the word "brainwashing" to describe what I would consider training for my sub. The way I'd describe training, or conditioning, is the process of introducing my needs and desires to my submissive, and allowing him to get used to doing things the way I would like them done, as opposed to the way a previous Dominant might have expected things to be done.

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RE: Training or brainwashing? - 9/27/2010 1:34:47 PM

thishereboi

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quote:

Training is the conventional term for a sub being conditioned to do what a dom wants. It is, or rather should be, always consensual in that the sub chooses to be trained, and is by no means forced to or unconsciously lured into it. To clarify, training may require force, but it is morally wrong to force training unto a person who truly does not want to be trained.

To me training is showing the sub how to accomplish a certain task. I was never 'conditioned' to do what my mistress told me to do. When I made the decision to submit to her, I did what I was told. One of the first things she trained me to do was put away her laundry. It didn't involve force or brainwashing, she said do it this way and I did. If they have to be forced, then why do they want to be submissive in the first place?

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(in reply to Bravado)

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RE: Training or brainwashing? - 9/27/2010 1:59:31 PM

SubPet715

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When it comes to brainwashing I look for certain things that people try to do...and they have done it.

Trying to get me to change who I am as a person mostly, who I hang out with, what I enjoy, things like that they're not training they're turning me into something I am not. Which is why communication between two people must be open so the dom/domme can put a sub at ease that they aren't attempting to brainwash them or anything distasteful. In return the sub can be assured and be better fit to serve someone they trust.

Besides my brain is dry clean only *rimshot*

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Passion isn't really happiness.

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RE: Training or brainwashing? - 9/27/2010 2:26:33 PM

Tetron

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Training is the reinforcement of a behavior deemed positive. This example comes from things such as teaching a dog to roll over, when he does so you give positive reinforcement. Training always involves reinforcing a displayed trait (even if that trait is induced). Brainwashing involves a baseline personality alteration, the best example of this would be sexual reprograming. There is a process used on pedophiles and certain individuals of that type where they have them masturbate and switch to an appropriate image upon climax, attempting to alter their arousal response.

To break it down further, training is an emotional alteration, giving praise or withholding punishment for a specific action performed correctly. Brainwashing is an attempt to alter neural structure by changing pathways in the brain, such as converting a heterosexual girl into a bisexual girl, or giving someone a kink for something they were previously not interested in. This can be consensual or nonconsensual though nonconsensual is much more difficult. I have applied both training and brainwashing and found training to be faster, but brainwashing more lasting.

(in reply to SubPet715)

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RE: Training or brainwashing? - 9/27/2010 2:26:54 PM

DesFIP

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Teaching me how he likes his tea had very little to do with brainwashing. The other thing is that I'm not being beaten to a pile of snot willing to break my moral boundaries just to make the pain stop. I've not been forced to stay awake for days on end, and so on. When he says "I want you to learn how to do this" and I willingly agree, then he's teaching or training me. Brainwashing by default means consent was not asked for or given.

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Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to SubPet715)

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RE: Training or brainwashing? - 9/27/2010 3:42:27 PM

StrongSpirit

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First, prove that Brainwashing exists. Define it and show evidence.

In the Korean War, they captured 20,000 american soldiers, . 21 refused to return to come back, and we called it brainwashing. But 21/20,000 = a bit more than .1%. That sounds to me like they found draftees that hated their country, not actually brainwashing.

The keys of Brainwashing are supposed to be: 1) Isolation, 2) Dependency (control of food, bathroom, sleep, etc.) , 4) Breakdown of ego (you are maggots, etc.) 3) Propaganda.

Most forms of Training involve some form of Dependency and Breakdown of ego. Assuming that Brainwashing is in fact real, and not just some bull that people claim when someone changes their mind, then it would also require the following:

A) Isolation, which requires 24/7, and at least a solid week of training where the sub does not leave the dom's control for so much as a second.
B) exposure to propaganda promulgating an idea that the sub did NOT believe at the beginning.

The Isolation is rather rare, but not unheard of. Similarly, the exposure to Propaganda is also rather rare, Subs usually go out of the way to ensure that their Dom's ideas mesh with their own before they do anything like this.

I would have to say that in consensual BDSM their can be no real Brainwashing, just training. That assumes that Brainwashing is a real thing, not a fiction invented by people that dislike it when others convert to opposing ideals.

(in reply to DesFIP)

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RE: Training or brainwashing? - 9/27/2010 3:58:46 PM

MIsabelah

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Brainwashing aka mind-control aka persuasion of technique aka influence. Many people use a variety of terms for the word MIND-CONTROL and it does exist. I am not in a psychology class but a forum that discusses the D/s lifestyle on many levels. As for training subs- there is a lot of mind control enforcement used in training a sub or slave. The BIGGER question is WHO is using thosetechnique to training? Is it someone stable, secure, sane, and safe? Or some control freak who wishes to use these training techniques to use, misuse, and abuse someone who is already open to serve? Two different levels of thinking here. For those interested in reading information:

Rick Ross website is a good place to start: http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing20.html

Book: Brainwash: The Secret History of Mind Control by Dominic Streatfeild

There are plenty of books, movies out there to learn about it. I think the OP question is a relevant one.

(in reply to StrongSpirit)

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RE: Training or brainwashing? - 9/27/2010 4:12:58 PM

MercTech

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Training is the reinforcing and practice of proficiency of a set of actions or behaviors. The trainee makes the concious decision to accept or reject the training.

Brainwashing is the systematic breakdown of a subject's sense of self worth and undermining the jubject's value systems to aproach a tabula rasa on which a new set of values may be written to fill the void. The subject is usually detached from any previous associations that could reinforce their previous value system.

Cult indoctrinations and the "psychological conditioning" used during the Korean war are well documented forms of brainwashing.

Yep, there is a difference,
Stefan

(in reply to MIsabelah)

Post #: 10

RE: Training or brainwashing? - 9/27/2010 5:05:04 PM

LadyRian

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I wouldn't feel right about "training" a submissive as one would train an animal. I wouldn't feel right about "conditioning" a submissive using fear, or punishment. I would feel even worse about "brainwashing". If I wanted a mindless automaton, I'd go to Japan and commission one of those new robots they're creating over there.

A sub who desires to serve me would be doing so per his own choice. I am not one who considers my submissive to be less than my equal. I know there may be those who disagree with this point of view, but it's the way I feel about it. Any sub who would choose to serve me would be doing so because of his desire to please me. Instructing him in my ways and protocols enable him to serve and please me the way I know that he desires to, and I always will make sure I let my submissive know when he's pleased me. I find that with the sort of submissive who's company I enjoy, positive reinforcement is the best way to go. If both parties are on the same page concerning expectations, needs and desires, things are great. If the expectations, needs and desires of the people involved are incongruent, then it's not a good fit, and time to move on.

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"Dodging bullets since 2010"

(in reply to MercTech)

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RE: Training or brainwashing? - 9/28/2010 1:46:01 AM

ranja

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i have been trained to wash my brain by a Master brainwasher... he did it all the time.
i used to have many troubles with muddled thinking... strange ideas would randomly form and it was most likely because my brain would get dirty... on account of my extra ordinairily large ears... dust blows in over time and settles on the old brain and irrational thought processes are the result... or maybe it is just because i am a woman...
anyway, it turns out you can pull the entire thing out through your nose and give it a quick rinse... problem solved

(in reply to Bravado)

Post #: 12

RE: Training or brainwashing? - 9/28/2010 2:46:44 AM

Malkinius

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Greetings all....

I think it is time to clear up a few things here about training and brainwashing. To keep it simple, training is passing on knowledge or a skill from one person to another. Brainwashing is changing how someone things and relates to the world around them. Everything else is the details about how it is done and what is done.

The point of "training" a sub or a slave is both of these things. It is imparting knowledge and skills and changing how she thinks and relates to the world. I am sorry, but anyone who thinks differently is fooling themselves. Or they haven't a clue what is really happening. Changing how people think is something that happens all the time. It is a normal part of human interaction. It is not a bad thing. Parents do it with their children every day. Schools, churches, politicians all do or try to do it. Most of the time it works to some degree.

When I train a slave, I point out that my main goal is to change how they think. I don't use almost all of the techniques mentioned so far as being part of brainwashing or I do but certainly not to the degrees mentioned or implied. If I keep someone up an hour or two past their bedtimes every now and then talking, asking and answering questions and otherwise influencing what they believe and do, am I subjecting them to sleep depravation? Of course I am. Will people consider it the same as the techniques used by interrogators? No. People do things like that all the time without thinking about it. Yes, if done deliberately it can be used to change how someone thinks both through what is said and the slight change in the normal sleep cycle.

The problem with telling people you are 'brainwashing' them is they picture many of the things from books, movies and actual forced change attempts. You can do it without most of those techniques or without doing them to extremes as per my example above. I tell slaves I will change them and they will only see most of it looking back. I do and they do. <grins> Yes, I know, consent to have this done and the cooperation that goes with that consent does make it much easier to do. There are ways of doing it non-consensually without all the bad methods as well. It just takes longer. If people try to do the things they read about or see in movies, they are much more likely to go to jail than create a slave. A good reason for most to never go there or attempt to do so.

Be well....

Malkinius

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http://www.HouseMalkinius.com The goal is community.

(in reply to Bravado)

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RE: Training or brainwashing? - 9/28/2010 5:45:27 AM

lally2

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its all about degrees. my mind leaps to the thread about Pro Mia and the other term i cant remember where subs were (i think personally) brainwashed into starvation - a more leniant attitude would say that the Dom was training them to eat less until they became skeletal.

if you then take that premis further i think it is possible to see how training and brainwashing could be interchangeable, depending very much on the submissive involved. an experienced Dominant can train a sub to adopt new aspects of behaviour until they become second nature - now its over to the sub - is she still in contact with her old methods but has adopted His or has she completely lost the thread of where she was before the change occurred.

it is possible, even insidiously. ive been in relationships where adopting a mindset or a world view through another persons eyes was so complete that i totally lost the thread of me. going with the flow for the ease of life in general can mean you do and can adopt a whole other ethos, even if it doesnt absolutely concur with youres.

its in the skill and humanity of the Dominant to ensure that the submissive never loses the thread of who they are but still accepts and adopts their ways.

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to Malkinius)

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RE: Training or brainwashing? - 9/28/2010 11:06:48 AM

Bravado

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All very interesting thoughts and opinions. It also calls to question, that if you want to make tremendous changes in someone, including many parts of their personality, if you were attracted them for who they are/were, or their potential as a canvas for whatever illustration you had in mind. Would anyone want to share a personal answer on that?

(in reply to lally2)

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RE: Training or brainwashing? - 9/28/2010 12:41:58 PM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

How would you differentiate the two? Or are they two sides of the same coin? In truth they can be used interchangeably in many instances of BDSM, but "training" is the preferred term, as the latter is a bit too CIA or cult-conspiracy. I'd like to define the differences in my perspective, but be aware that it's mostly a matter of semantics.

I can only speak for myself. I differentiate the two in that the "training" that I do is actual -practical- training, dealing with specifics of how to manage certain day-to-day situations: How to seat guests "at table", how to provide decent table service, including coffee, wine, tea, mixed drinks, etc. 'at table', and service of soup, meat, fowl, fish, and dessert service; afternoon tea service; "order of address" for the announcement and greeting of family and guests; household care 101, including proper management of hardwoods, marble, china, glass, crystal, and silverware...

I have no interest in "brainwashing" someone into service. Either they have a service-oriented attitude or they don't. In the same way, I have no real interest in coercive activities. If someone doesn't share my interest in certain activities, and has no interest in giving them a try, it behooves me to find a more amenable individual with which to share my enjoyment of said thing. My preference is for individuals who serve because they enjoy doing so, and who obey because it is part of their nature to do so. I have no issue with training skills and establishing regular disciplines for behavior and actions... but to me, that isn't a mental/brainwashing process -- it is an educational opportunity that teaches a servant how best to apply the mindset that xhe already -has- in a way that is fulfilling for both of us.

Calla

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to Bravado)

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RE: Training or brainwashing? - 9/29/2010 1:22:58 AM

ranja

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And after my latest cleaning out of the cobwebs i realised that the 'training' and 'brainwashing' in my grey matter are understood and practised as simple or even crafty manipulation... i think we all do it (including the subs ssst)

it is of course possible to manipulate others so they become more acceptable to spend time with... but i have found that if one uses their manipulative skills to change oneself for the better the other person(s) seems to become more palatable too somehow haha

(in reply to Bravado)

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RE: Training or brainwashing? - 9/30/2010 3:12:23 AM

Acer49

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I train my dog

I motivate and inspire my submissive

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Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey Fierstein

(in reply to Bravado)

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RE: Training or brainwashing? - 9/30/2010 4:02:19 AM

DesFIP

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From: Apple County NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrongSpirit
Most forms of Training involve some form of Dependency and Breakdown of ego.

You're not serious about this, are you? Taking a class in sushi making does not involve the breakdown of ego. Or belly dancing, or pilates. Or any other skill set imaginable.

Dependency, to a degree, of course. You are dependent upon the teacher to explain and answer questions. But breaking down the ego? I'm beginning to wonder about what kinds of schooling you've had if you're serious that every teacher has always sought first to destroy you.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to StrongSpirit)

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RE: Training or brainwashing? - 9/30/2010 8:54:45 AM

submitting4U

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Training, subspace, and the scripts enacted in D/s and BDSM play derives from subconscious states. This implies partial awareness of our drives and motivations, usually connected to the erotic life in the fetish environment. As a sub, i both go along with the training and allow the hypnotic (subconscious state) state to advance. Like a dream state it brings me to places i could never predict. The domina or dom ... "pushes limits" with the sub's consent. That consent is often your passivity ... i have been involved in so-called "extreme play" but with allowance i do something i previously resisted or refused to entertain as possible. There are, however, people whose ego states are so disabled that they cannot protect themselves. A true sadist will exploit these folks to the fullest extent, sometimes to their death!

(in reply to DesFIP)

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