RE: Childless ? (Full Version)

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Aneirin -> RE: Childless ? (9/28/2010 9:37:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

If I had been able to make a conscious choice, I probably would have never had children and certainly would not have cursed them with the biological father my kids have.

Fortunately, my life took a turn, at a point in my life where I was not really able to choose any other path. Now, at this point in my life, I will always be grateful. I love, respect, and completely enjoy, my kids. They are wonderful human beings and fantastic parents to my grands. I would not be the woman I am today, without the life I've had.........children being a huge part of that.

And yes, I still make life decisions with family repercussions in mind. I don't bring just anyone into my life, I allow few people into my home. I worry less about my own personal safety than that of the people I love. I am very protective of my family, extremely so. So of course it reflects in my other choices and life goals.

I fully support people making the choice to avoid parenting. There are millions of people that should not be parents. One thing I have noticed about my friends that do not have children is a very different sense of their personal priorities and importance about their possessions and personal space. It is as though a part of them stopped maturing. There is a quality, a more self centred, selfishness. They seem to place a much bigger importance on their 'things'. I've often wondered if it has anything to do with never needing to go without, share, lose fragile items to groping little fingers, etc.


That is is, yes, I have also seen this, it is as if when one has a child, the parents suddenly grow up and in one particular case, my ex daughter and son in law, the mother changed almost overnight and the father, well, he took a while, but he changed eventually, kicking and screaming I thought, but when he did, he did that overnight and from there onwards looked worried, no doubt thinking his feckless ways are going to have to change as he now has a young life he was partly responsible for, no games anymore, this was for real.

Personally through infertility I have no children, it came as a massive shock when I did find that out, as what I had always thought would be my life couldn't be, perhaps it is why I just cast around now not thinking of futures. But I can't help thinking something is missing from life, a reason to be here. I did try marrying a woman with kids, but despite what I did, they were never my flesh and blood and on occaisions I was reminded of that with comments such as,' You are not my father' and ' they are not your kids' when emotions were wrought. I did stay, saw all three of them through their teens, but when the final one left I felt there was nothing left of me, the wife similarly, we went our seperate ways never having achieved any of the plans we had for when the birds had flown. I wonder if this is what happens to couples post children, the high instance of  break ups of long term marriage and divorce.

But if it is sort of expected that young people will grow up, come together and produce the future, what is the thought as regarding people who either choose not to have children or by will of nature cannot have them ?

Socially, well in this country anyway singles are generally not wanted, well not not wanted, but there is not much thought directed in their favour and it sometimes though it might I understand come across as a selfish thing to say, but I have to say it, becomes very wearing hearing about families coming first, children being the most important people it seems in society, then the parents, grand parents etc. Does anyone ever stop to think society is made up of others who are not connected to children, childless couples through intent or not, and singles who perhaps think in order to become part of society, they must shack up with someone and think about offspring to be accepted by society.

But then when people are in a family unit, control comes into the equation, for families are families, they do things together and they look out for each other, hence marketing highlighting and targeting the families seeing them as their bread winner.




sexyred1 -> RE: Childless ? (9/28/2010 9:55:12 AM)

I want to address two things:

First, LaTigresse mentioned about her childless friends:

Quote: sense of their personal priorities and importance about their possessions and personal space. It is as though a part of them stopped maturing. There is a quality, a more self centred, selfishness. They seem to place a much bigger importance on their 'things'. I've often wondered if it has anything to do with never needing to go without, share, lose fragile items to groping little fingers, etc.

I would take issue with that simply because it is not really fair to judge that way. When people ask me how I can afford the things I have, I tell them I have worked hard and I have no children to support, only myself. I fail to see where that makes me immature.
 
I fail to see how it is immature to want to be surrounded by a nice personal space and things; would you rather single people just give all their things away? I do actually give alot to charity. Many of us single people have experienced periods of unemployment, etc, when we went without, so when we are with, it stands to reason we will value those things.

Valuing the things in your life in no way diminshes the value of people in your life, that does come first and my family is my most important thing to me, not my things.

I don't see it being self centered, when you don't have kids, or could not have kids. It makes no sense to put down a person for being involved with themselves, when they are single. I see from my brother and sister in law who lived a certain lifestyle before having kids that their lives have changed 360 degrees and they are fine with that. They experienced both sides of the coin.

People who have not experienced both sides, cannot really speak with authority about the other situation. You need to walk in someone else's shoes before making a value judgement.

Next topic, Aneirin says:

Socially, well in this country anyway singles are generally not wanted, well not not wanted, but there is not much thought directed in their favour and it sometimes though it might I understand come across as a selfish thing to say, but I have to say it, becomes very wearing hearing about families coming first, children being the most important people it seems in society, then the parents, grand parents etc. Does anyone ever stop to think society is made up of others who are not connected to children, childless couples through intent or not, and singles who perhaps think in order to become part of society, they must shack up with someone and think about offspring to be accepted by society.

I agree that is has become suspect in many cases not to have had kids. It is also a society made up of family units, so sometimes being single is tough, when so much is geared towards couples or kids. Again, without knowing why someone is childless, by choice or not, it is not a valid way to structure things.

As in all things, the grass sometimes appears greener on someone else's lawn but appearances can be deceiving.
 




Wolf2Bear -> RE: Childless ? (9/28/2010 10:36:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

I agree that is has become suspect in many cases not to have had kids. It is also a society made up of family units, so sometimes being single is tough, when so much is geared towards couples or kids. Again, without knowing why someone is childless, by choice or not, it is not a valid way to structure things.

As in all things, the grass sometimes appears greener on someone else's lawn but appearances can be deceiving.
 


I am also one of those people who chose not to have offspring and didn't. Even in my late teens I swore I would never marry and never wanted offspring. Yes I had family, relatives and friends chastise me and say I I'm young yet and will change my mind. The one and only reason why I chose to remain childless was I did not want to take on that huge of a responsibility and firmly believe I would not make a good father in raising any child.

Yes I agree that sometimes the grass looks greener yet I also paid close attention to seeing how many others raised their children and saw things I felt weren't acceptable either. I see how happy my friends and my own sister is while she and her hubby raise 2 beautiful daughters, yet I've also seen how much they gave of themselves to their kids and done so unselfishly and with love, I have seen friends who are parents and their kids are spoiled little demons without acceptable manners, bad attitudes etc. It is those examples which has overall proved that I made the correct choice a long time ago. There have been a rare few moments when I wondered what my life would have been like if I fathered offspring, then reality hits with the knowledge that I didn't not want that responsibility and I did not want to risk repeating the mistakes my parents made as I was growing up. Though I will never know what it'll be like to have children yet I believe that is a small price to pay over being a bad parent and having offspring who would look at me with disgust and contempt.




Hillwilliam -> RE: Childless ? (9/28/2010 10:38:27 AM)

No kids and, as I'm 50, unlikely to have any.  At least I'm 99% sure I have none.




LaTigresse -> RE: Childless ? (9/28/2010 10:38:55 AM)

Red, I was discussing people I actually KNOW, not you! Quit twisting my words to mean any more than they say.




hlen5 -> RE: Childless ? (9/28/2010 10:47:46 AM)

I think it takes a lot to know you shouldn't have kids and I applaud and respect the people who have made that choice.
This subject is such a landmine, I didn't even want to post on it. I will say that I don't have kids and I will be reading the thread.

EFS (edited for spelling).




MistressRosalyn -> RE: Childless ? (9/28/2010 11:18:04 AM)

All of us play certain roles each lifetime, and sometimes having children isn't in the script. There are some people that are my friends who should have never had children, and others who would have been GREAT parents, but for whatever reason, they couldn't.

I completely respect those who knew that parenting wasn't for them, better that then to have miserable children. I had a high school friend who, at the ripe old age of 25, had a tubal ligation because she knew that children were not for her. When I last spoke to her, she did not regret that decision one bit.

For those who wanted children, but couldn't have them, my heart goes out to you. I don't pretend to understand why there are baby-mammas out there who can spit out unwanted child after unwanted child, yet there are truly wonderful folks who, for whatever reason, can't reproduce. It is very hard to squash that biological imperative; even at 50, I still see babies and think that it would be nice to have another. Thankfully, my brain kicks in and reminds me that I will have grand-babies one day.

As for marketing and other commentary, I simply don't pay a lot of attention to it. I've had my kids, and they are grown, so whatever. In fact, I was in Wally World last week, and one of the aisles was blocked, so I turned down the toy aisle, and I realized that I had no clue whatsoever as to what the "hot" toys this year are. Thank heavens!

I suppose though, to a person with no children who wants children, that every mention, every reference would be painful. Just as a person doesn't realize how many food commercials are on TV until they are extremely nauseated, so the constant mention of all things baby, child and family would, I imagine, rankle.

On a side note, about two weeks ago, a rather odd older couple came into the shop where I work. She was talking to something in a stroller, and then telling us how good he had been all day, etc. We thought that it was a dog or something like that. She asked for our help finding a special T-shirt for him because of how good he had been, so we moved to see what size "he" was. "He" was teddy bear.  The other clerks and owner let me handle it.

We found a lovely T-shirt that fit.






LadyHibiscus -> RE: Childless ? (9/28/2010 12:00:47 PM)

Not speaking for Red, or going after your comments, Lat, but there IS a stereotype that that non breeders are selfish, immature, or somehow "incomplete".

Hogwash.

I am glad that those of you who have kids and are glad of it, are. Those of us whho are on a different path are not on a lesser one.




LaTigresse -> RE: Childless ? (9/28/2010 12:07:15 PM)

LadyHib, if that was how my words were taken, it was not my intent.

I do not feel it is selfish to not want children. As I said, I did not want them prior to having them. I had not realized there was any sort of negative stereotype of people that did not have, or want, children. All I was doing was making an observation about the differences in personality between those that have children and those that do not. I would make a similar observation if we were discussing people that are only children versus people that come from large families. Or the differences in whether a person was the oldest in a family versus middle child, or youngest child.

Example: From my experience, an only child, or youngest, tends to mature more slowly and be less inclined to share.

I was also not implying that those personality differences were a negative. Just different.




LadyHibiscus -> RE: Childless ? (9/28/2010 12:08:31 PM)

Coolio. :) thanks for clarifying.




myotherself -> RE: Childless ? (9/28/2010 12:27:53 PM)

I don't have children, and haven't ever wanted them.

I never felt mature enough to be responsible for another's life, and as soon as I DID feel mature enough, I changed my job and went into teaching [:)]

So I can be part of the upbringing of hundreds of children every year, and still have time and money to do the things I enjoy outside of work. Not a bad compromise!





subrob1967 -> RE: Childless ? (9/28/2010 12:39:38 PM)

Never wanted any. never had any, no regrets whatsoever.




MstrPBK -> RE: Childless ? (9/28/2010 12:43:30 PM)

There are those who say I would make a wonderful father. My view is that while I am understanding I think my temperment to reinforce a unwanted behavior maybe a bit extreme - even if it were a child.

I will pass on caring for children.

MstrPBK
St .Paul, MN USA




sexyred1 -> RE: Childless ? (9/28/2010 1:03:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Red, I was discussing people I actually KNOW, not you! Quit twisting my words to mean any more than they say.


LaT, I did not say you meant me, I was commenting on any generalization about the topic, which is indeed, a highly charged one.

We can disagree without having an issue, right?




LaTigresse -> RE: Childless ? (9/28/2010 1:23:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1


quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Red, I was discussing people I actually KNOW, not you! Quit twisting my words to mean any more than they say.


LaT, I did not say you meant me, I was commenting on any generalization about the topic, which is indeed, a highly charged one.

We can disagree without having an issue, right?


Since I was not generalizing, we are not disagreeing. Unless you know my childless friends about whom I was writing...




hertz -> RE: Childless ? (9/28/2010 1:39:35 PM)

The great thing about not having your own kids is that you can play with other people's, and when they get to be a nuisance, or start to cry, or make crazy demands for food and stuff, you can give them back. It's all good.

The bad thing is that when my partner and I get old and frail, we'll have no-one to look after us. That's going to suck.

But on saying that, we won't need to explain to our kids why we didn't do anything to stop our generation fucking the world up before leaving it to them.






LadyHibiscus -> RE: Childless ? (9/28/2010 3:20:26 PM)

I had that "no one to take care of me" moment, but as I looked around I realized that not all chidren felt the need to care for their parents, so it would be a crapshoot either way.




Aynne88 -> RE: Childless ? (9/28/2010 3:30:53 PM)

I knew it from probably the age of 12. I am childless by choice, and at 44, never ever ever regretted it, and grow more resolute in my decision as I get older. I was the girl that didn't play with dolls, never wanted to babysit and still don't really care for the company of children in large time periods.

I think that a lot of people have children from family or societal pressures and I see an awful lot of unfit fucked up parenting around me. More people should evaluate having children prior to actually getting pregnant because I don't think it does children any good to come into a less than desirable situation, especially repeatedly. When you don't have the time, resources or emotional maturity to parent, please don't, it really doesn't add up to a healthy society.




PeanutTigerinBox -> RE: Childless ? (9/28/2010 3:30:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

The bad thing is that when my partner and I get old and frail, we'll have no-one to look after us. That's going to suck.


Whilst this is a point, don't forget that having kids won't guarantee that they will be looking after you, because I know that I won't be looking after my parents for many different reasons (and am unsure about my brothers view in that respect though in general we both appear to be happier to be far away from home).





hertz -> RE: Childless ? (9/28/2010 3:44:24 PM)

Thanks, those of you who pointed out that not every child sees it as a duty to look after their elderly parents. For two reasons.

1) I'm genuinely worried about how we're going to deal with getting ancient. It somehow helps to know that having kids might not have helped.

2) I gave up on my whole family 20 years ago, so I won't be looking after my own parents.




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