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Self Discipline - 4/24/2006 8:22:44 AM   
kisshou


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Can a Master train a slave to have self discipline?


If a slave can be trained to have self discipline then would it make her no longer a slave? (am not really sure how to word that but hope you know what I am trying to say) :)

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RE: Self Discipline - 4/24/2006 8:25:45 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou
Can a Master train a slave to have self discipline?

One would hope so.
quote:


If a slave can be trained to have self discipline then would it make her no longer a slave? (am not really sure how to word that but hope you know what I am trying to say) :)

Self discipline means that when someone (including yourself) tells you to "stay" then you can "stay."

Self discipline means that when you WANT a cookie, but know that it will ruin your dinner, you don't have a cookie.

Most masters prefer slaves who don't need constant attention and reinforcement like a 2 year old.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to kisshou)
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RE: Self Discipline - 4/24/2006 8:38:46 AM   
ShadowT


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Greetings..

I've been near/in the lifestyle for many years.
I've discovered that the Master is like the director of a band.
Such that he directs the girl's self control and aids her to make her own self discipline stronger when ever he can through reward and punishment techniques and other techniques as well.  Helping her self discipline to grow stronger and better so she can better be being in control over her own body and actions for the Master so she can serve him and please him to the best shes able.

Have a great day.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Self Discipline - 4/24/2006 9:22:36 AM   
babyblues


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i am expected to keep the house clean, pay the bills, do the dishes and laundry, etc. without being micromanaged....he has better things to do than babysit me...
 
as good as LA's cookie probably tastes, my hips don't need it, so i will use my self discipline and grab an apple instead...
 
i am not a child, i do what is right and what is expected of me without having to be told every little thing
 
 

(in reply to kisshou)
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RE: Self Discipline - 4/24/2006 3:01:07 PM   
kisshou


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an owned slave doing what is right is doing what is pleasing to the one that owns her

so your motivation comes not from self but from wanting to please someone else

what i was asking had nothing to do with being micromanaged but more what is the motivational force behind it

1)are you saying you don't eat the cookie becauase your hips would get fat and the one that owns you does not want a slave with fat hips?

2)or are you saying you don't eat the cookie because you yourself don't want to get fat?

3)or i guess it could be both you and the one that owns you don't want you to be fat

wouldn't choice 2 be self discipline since you are doing it for yourself?

(in reply to babyblues)
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RE: Self Discipline - 4/24/2006 3:12:11 PM   
Areflectionofyou


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self discipline is important, and a Master should want his sub/slave to possess discipline.

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RE: Self Discipline - 4/24/2006 3:21:16 PM   
Tikkiee


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Yes, a Master can train a slave to be more self-disciplined. However, it is my own personal opinion that each person has that ability within themselves and that they should not need another to 'train' them. Maybe encourage them; but not train. As I said though, that is only my personal opinion.

_____________________________

~~@ cass @~~

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RE: Self Discipline - 4/24/2006 3:53:16 PM   
Focus50


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To teach or train you to have self-discipline that you never had before?  Doubtful or maybe just a little....
 
To bring it out in you or to a much higher level for the greater good of the *relationship* dynamic?  Absolutely!
 
The thing about *self* discipline within a D/s or M/s relationship is that my girl also brings it out in me, too!  When I'm single and generally bored and unmotivated, my self-discipline tends to drop a few knotches....  Things like I don't shave as often or I let the dishes pile up a little higher etc - it's normal.
 
But when I own a girl, I have someone to set required standards of behaviour for - and I'm big on leading by example.  Even if we're not yet living together, I'm much more conscious of keeping myself and home at a much higher standard in general *because* of her - and not necessarily a new level of self-discipline itself.  That's what a dynamic does - you feed off and inspire each other.
 
Having a higher or lower level of self-discipline is not relative to being a slave.  You cease being a slave when you're no longer owned - and I'd expect your own self-discipline would then drop as a consequence.  Just as my own does when I no longer own a slave....
 
Focus.

(in reply to kisshou)
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RE: Self Discipline - 4/24/2006 3:55:01 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou

Can a Master train a slave to have self discipline?

If a slave can be trained to have self discipline then would it make her no longer a slave? (am not really sure how to word that but hope you know what I am trying to say) :)


Ok I don't think I am understanding what your trying to get at here.. because honestly what you asking really doesn't make alot of sense and even seems silly.  I always found you to ask questions and express thoughts that are pretty damn good.... so me thinks i don't understand what you getting at or you having trouble expressing it.  but what I understand from you questions is this.

"Can a Master train a slave to have self-discipline" 

Yes and not only that any one can learn to have self-discipline on their own or anyone with the knowledge could teach another. 

"If a slave can be trained to have self discipline then would it make her no longer a slave?"

Now this is the question that doesn't make sense to me.  If the answer to this question is "No" then it would equate to a slave to be someone with "NO Self-discipline"  Therefore anyone with No Self-discipline is a potential slave.  So what does a person with No self-discpline look like... is it someone that anyone would like to be around?

Self-Discpline is simply a Postive Character Strength that any individual would find beneficial to themselves and those they care about.  It is not limited to just Dominants.  As another note... It takes Self-Discipline to Learn anything to some degree.

So at the end of it... I am really not sure I understand what you trying to get at. 

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to kisshou)
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RE: Self Discipline - 4/24/2006 4:03:09 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou

an owned slave doing what is right is doing what is pleasing to the one that owns her

so your motivation comes not from self but from wanting to please someone else

what i was asking had nothing to do with being micromanaged but more what is the motivational force behind it

1)are you saying you don't eat the cookie becauase your hips would get fat and the one that owns you does not want a slave with fat hips?

2)or are you saying you don't eat the cookie because you yourself don't want to get fat?

3)or i guess it could be both you and the one that owns you don't want you to be fat

wouldn't choice 2 be self discipline since you are doing it for yourself?



I think I am getting a feel for what your trying to get at.... maybe.

Self-discipline is a strength of character (one of many) that enables one to realize that which motivates them.

A slave can be motivated to please their Master.  But motivation in of itself doesn't mean they will succeed.  Self-discpline (amoung others) is needed to take what is motivating the slave and make it happen. 

I can be as motivated as I can be... but if I don't have the right stuff to make it happen... it never will happen.  self-discipline is not motivation.  It is a tool, a skill to achieve what motivates us.

It appears to me that you consider Motivation and Self-Discipline as similiar things.... which they are not

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to kisshou)
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RE: Self Discipline - 4/24/2006 4:10:09 PM   
SirCumsSlut


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou

Can a Master train a slave to have self discipline?


If a slave can be trained to have self discipline then would it make her no longer a slave? (am not really sure how to word that but hope you know what I am trying to say) :)




It is not so much being trained to have self discipline, but rather a Master is enhancing what already exists.  IMHO, and my case, Sir builds on my self discipline so that I can handle all that the real world throws my way.....there was a time when I didn't want to face another day......Did I lack self discipline???  In a way yes I did....I surpressed the self discipline that I had gained growing to adult hood (mainly my first marriage).   Sir has since enhanced that discipline, and made me much stronger...
 
So I have to say "no" to train but "yes" to a Master enhancing self discipline

_____________________________

Peace
His slut


"Your firm hand and compassionate heart are what guide me in my journey....I am Yours, Sir" His slut

(in reply to kisshou)
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RE: Self Discipline - 4/24/2006 4:28:15 PM   
slavejali


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I think self-discpline leads to mastery of self. When one has mastery of self they are no longer a slave to their little hidden goals and agendas and desires, this puts them in a perfect position to be able to surrender to their partner and they become amazing slave potential.

Sure a good Master could lead the way to that self-discipline and the benefit he will receive from that is a most wonderful slave.

_____________________________

Freedom in Bondage

Different Strokes for Different Folks

"I'll always have a *soft spot* for Sadists"

(in reply to SirCumsSlut)
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RE: Self Discipline - 4/24/2006 7:05:41 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou
so your motivation comes not from self but from wanting to please someone else

Because it pleases yourself and makes you fulfilled to please someone else.

It always comes back to self.

quote:

1)are you saying you don't eat the cookie becauase your hips would get fat and the one that owns you does not want a slave with fat hips?

I'm saying you don't do X because you realize that doing X negates Y, when Y is your long term goal. Even though you want to do X and Y, you have the discipline of self to realize and stay true to the more priority of the two.

quote:

wouldn't choice 2 be self discipline since you are doing it for yourself?

As Knight said, motivation and discipline are completely different things. 

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to kisshou)
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RE: Self Discipline - 4/25/2006 7:51:53 AM   
babyblues


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou

an owned slave doing what is right is doing what is pleasing to the one that owns her

so your motivation comes not from self but from wanting to please someone else

what i was asking had nothing to do with being micromanaged but more what is the motivational force behind it

1)are you saying you don't eat the cookie becauase your hips would get fat and the one that owns you does not want a slave with fat hips?

2)or are you saying you don't eat the cookie because you yourself don't want to get fat?

3)or i guess it could be both you and the one that owns you don't want you to be fat

wouldn't choice 2 be self discipline since you are doing it for yourself?



you're angling towards another topic - overweight subs/slaves - and actually, it's an interesting discussion i've taken part in through other forums....if i were the OP type, i would post it as a topic, but instead i will just say.....
 
my self discipline encourages me to eat an apple instead of a cookie for several reasons....
1. yes, Master abhors overweight women for several reasons
2. yes, i prefer not to have overly fat hips
3. bingo 

i am doing it for both of us, because it's the right thing to do...and i use my self discipline to accomplish that....he's not standing over me ordering me to not eat that cookie.....a slave is not a child

(in reply to kisshou)
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RE: Self Discipline - 4/25/2006 8:38:32 AM   
IronBear


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I don't agree that self disclipline and the mastering of self reduces or detracts from a slave's slavery... kajira I know, are selfdiscliplined and their self disclipline is part of their training and and what makes them what they are. As I would want and need my slaves to be self reliant and able to carry on with logical duties without either being told or micro managed, self disclipline is paramount. Just my views and beliefs nothing more and nothing less.... Others must do and work with what is good for them and their relationships.. There is no right or wrong response.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to babyblues)
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RE: Self Discipline - 4/25/2006 11:06:03 AM   
kisshou


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I do have a tendency to confuse even myself, I have been told I 'over think' things.

For the past month or two I have wanted to achieve something that the Owner is indifferent to. So when I wrote the op I was thinking to myself that I wish I had the self discipline to just do it on my own. When it comes to pleasing someone else it is so clear cut and easy when it comes to myself it is a whole different matter. I am not sure if this makes it a motivation or a self discipline problem.

LA said "because it pleases yourself and makes you fulfilled to please someone else"


the someone else in that statement is the significant part, it is an external force, so I was thinking that the opposite would hold true, if it was all internal , you are pleased by pleasing yourself, wouldn't that make you a Master?

Why is it that if it would please the Owner I would do it in a heartbeat but without that motivating force it does not matter so much?  Is that a slave trait or just my own personal weirdness?

(in reply to KnightofMists)
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RE: Self Discipline - 4/25/2006 11:07:37 AM   
Ceyx


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I'm pretty much with Focus 50 on this one.

My miss is more disciplined as a result of our relationship, but as I've told her many times, she has amazing powers of application when she's operating in the right framework. I see that as bringing out a potential that she has inherently, but that she doesn't always exercise when she isn't focused on pleasing. And appreciated for that focus.

By the same token, I've become more disciplined as a result of my relationship with miss. I take my responsibility for her seriously, and for me that means that I should try my best to be the sort of person she'll be proud to call her owner. Self-control and self-review are important parts of that effort.

I'm proud of miss' increased self-discipline, and I don't think it makes her any less submissive. On the other side of the coin, the fact that she's doing it to please me doesn't mean that she isn't conducting her affairs well.

(in reply to kisshou)
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RE: Self Discipline - 4/25/2006 11:21:56 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou
When it comes to pleasing someone else it is so clear cut and easy when it comes to myself it is a whole different matter. I am not sure if this makes it a motivation or a self discipline problem.

It sounds like a motivation problem.  While motivation might not be the same as self-discipline, they are certainly related.

After all, what use is there for self-discipline if you're not motivated towards anything?  Otherwise, you either end up not doing anything productive or trying to do EVERYTHING.  Motivation focuses you, it gives you a map, while self-discipline keeps you on the road.

quote:

the someone else in that statement is the significant part, it is an external force, so I was thinking that the opposite would hold true, if it was all internal , you are pleased by pleasing yourself, wouldn't that make you a Master?

Being "a master" is a completely different thing from "knowing what is right and best for myself and having the discipline to follow through with it."

We're all doing this because it makes US fulfilled, within ourselves.  Trust me, lots of masters do things specifically to please others as well.  Doing something because you want to please someone else doesn't make someone a sub or not a sub- most good humans in the world do that.
quote:


Why is it that if it would please the Owner I would do it in a heartbeat but without that motivating force it does not matter so much?  Is that a slave trait or just my own personal weirdness?

It's your own weirdness.  My ex owner didn't care anything about Firefly, but I loved it and sought out groups for it.

Now, a lot of subs DO tie their sense of security and worth to being useful and being found pleasing by another.  Whether this is a good or bad thing ultimately depends on where it goes and how it's expressed.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to kisshou)
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RE: Self Discipline - 4/25/2006 11:55:07 AM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou

I do have a tendency to confuse even myself, I have been told I 'over think' things.


well lets not worry about that too much we all do this from time to time.   and um no do not add "but i tend to do it alot"    Here is a way to exercise "Self-Discipline"... I will not say/think devaluing things of myself.  First go have the more strong obvious verbal statements and then just work it down to just thoughts and then remove the thoughts.. slow steps with each step you become stronger and it bolds for confidence and enhances Self-discipline.  The only question.. is it important enough for you to want to do the work and effort.  Are you motivated to be a better you in this regard?

quote:


For the past month or two I have wanted to achieve something that the Owner is indifferent to. So when I wrote the op I was thinking to myself that I wish I had the self discipline to just do it on my own. When it comes to pleasing someone else it is so clear cut and easy when it comes to myself it is a whole different matter. I am not sure if this makes it a motivation or a self discipline problem.


One will not take a step if they preceive the pain to change to be greater than the pain to stay the same.  Or that the reward's/benefits of achievement do not justify the efforts that must be exerted for the goal.

It seems to me that what you describe is a motivation problem.  You can have great Self-Discipline but if your not motivated to the goal  you will not make the effort at the end of the day.  I am love the idea of using a 16 foot bull whip but frankly I don't percieve the rewards worth the efforts and I will not exercise my Self-Discipline to learn the skills need to use such a toy.

You need to reflect deeply into the reasons you what to do this thing you meantion.  Sometimes by looking at if from different angles we can learn to change our perceptions and find the motivations need to take on a goal.

Remember there is Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivations.  The most powerful is actually the intrinsic ones.

quote:


LA said "because it pleases yourself and makes you fulfilled to please someone else"

the someone else in that statement is the significant part, it is an external force, so I was thinking that the opposite would hold true, if it was all internal , you are pleased by pleasing yourself, wouldn't that make you a Master?


"because it pleases yourself and makes you fullilled to please someone else."

this could be considered either an intrinsic motivation or extrinsic.  It really depends on how you look at the sentence.  "because it pleases yourself...":  this part of the sentence is actually an instrinsic movitation.  the question is how you finish the sentence and if you place more importances on that part.  ".... and makes you fullied to please someone else"  This part gives you the reward to your motivation, but it also makes the reward dependent external on someone else.  "to Please someone else"  is to become dependent on their pleasure with your actions.

Now consider "because it pleases yourself to make efforts to please others"

This to me is the Instrinic motivation of the submissive/slave.  It is the most powerful of motivations in my mind... and protects you from a being dependent on others for your own self-gratifcations.  The focus is very much on your pleasure to make the efforts to please.  it doesn't reflect that you will always please!  I feel submissives set themselves up when they make their pleasure dependent on the judgement of someone else.  Accept that not all of your actions are going to be pleasurable.... But, are you not motivated to do so?  Take that personal pride that your efforts are to please.  Take pride in efforts and not having the unrealistic expectation that your must please someone each and every time to be pleased for yourself.  It is difference of focusing on the journey of being "YOU" as oppose to the "Illusionary GOAL" of pleasing someone else.  Sometimes the "Goal" is the Journey!  Often at it's core you will find the "journey" is much more important than just the "end"

My girls are constantly being taught and reinforced to "BE the best that  they Can Be at any given Moment"  and not the "Best at Every Moment"  Realistic expecations that is internally generated!  


quote:


Why is it that if it would please the Owner I would do it in a heartbeat but without that motivating force it does not matter so much?  Is that a slave trait or just my own personal weirdness?



it' is your own personal focus and perspective that is causing this.... change the perspective just alittle and you will be able to move mountains.  Remember changing it doesn't mean you would become less of a slave.. in fact you would become more in my opinion.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to kisshou)
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RE: Self Discipline - 4/25/2006 2:59:32 PM   
crouchingtigress


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This is some text on self dicipline execises I recently read:


Developing Will Power and Self Discipline One way to develop and improve this ability is to practice doing disagreeable things in your daily life. Your mind and feelings may oppose this action, nevertheless, do it. By doing something you do not like or are too lazy to do, you overcome your subconscious resistances, train your inner powers and gain strength. Muscles get stronger by resisting the power of the barbells. Inner strength is attained by overcoming inner resistance.


Here are some exercises:1) You are sitting in a bus or train and an old man or woman, or a pregnant lady walks in. Stand up and give up your seat even if you prefer to stay seated. Do this not just because it is polite, but because you are doing something that you are reluctant to do. In this way you are overcoming the resistance of your body, mind and feelings.


2) There are dishes in the sink that need washing, and you postpone washing them for latter. Get up and wash them now. Do not let your laziness overcome you. When you know that in this way you are developing your will power, and if you are convinced of the importance of will power in your life, it will be easier for you to do whatever you have to do.
3) You come home tired from work and sit in front of the T.V. because you feel too lazy and tired to go and wash yourself. Do not obey the desire to just sit, but go and have a shower
4) You may know your body needs some physical exercise, but instead you keep on sitting doing nothing or watching a movie. Get up and walk, run or do some other physical exercise.
5) Do you like your coffee with sugar? Then for a whole week decide to drink it without sugar. You like to drink three cups of coffee each day? For a week drink only two.
6) Overcome your laziness and your habits. Convince yourself of the importance of what is to be done. Convince your mind that you become stronger when you do things, even when you are reluctant, too lazy or believe you are too tired to do.
7) Sometimes, when you want to say something that is not important, decide not to say it.
8) Don't read some unimportant gossip in the newspaper, even if you want to.
9) You have a desire to eat something not too healthy. Refuse the desire.
10) If you find yourself thinking unimportant, unnecessary, negative thoughts, try to develop lack of interest in them by persuading yourself of their futility.
Never say that you cannot follow the above exercises, because you certainly can. Be persistent no matter what. Think and rethink about of the importance of performing the exercises and the inner power and strength they will give you. Believe me it helps. It helped me and it can help you.
Trying to attempt too many exercises immediately at the start may end in disappointment. It is better to start with small and not so important actions at first, and gradually increase the number and difficulty of the exercises. Practice will improve and increase your power, giving you a lot of satisfaction.
Remember, these exercises develop both will power and self discipline, as they are strongly connected. Strengthening one strengthens the other.
Most of these exercises can be practiced anywhere, anytime. You do not have to devote special times for them. Believe me, they are very effective. Practicing them enables you to be strong and exercise will power and self-discipline in everything you do. This power becomes available whenever needed.
If you practice weight lifting, running or doing aerobics you strengthen your body. When you need to move something heavy, you have the strength for it. By studying French each day, you will be able to talk French when you travel to France. The same thing happens with will power and self-discipline. By strengthening them, they become available whenever they are needed.

_____________________________


Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."




(in reply to KnightofMists)
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