RE: Where is the Conservative utopia?

RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? (Full Version)

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thornhappy -> RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? (10/2/2010 10:52:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 It's Big Corporations that want to "run the world" they couldn't care less about the U.S. unless they can use us. I believe that's called capitalism, popeye.

popeye1250 -> RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? (10/3/2010 12:55:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thornhappy quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 It's Big Corporations that want to "run the world" they couldn't care less about the U.S. unless they can use us. I believe that's called capitalism, popeye. Thorn, wrong, that's called being a fucking parasite.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? (10/3/2010 12:56:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 quote: ORIGINAL: thornhappy quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 It's Big Corporations that want to "run the world" they couldn't care less about the U.S. unless they can use us. I believe that's called capitalism, popeye. Thorn, wrong, that's called being a fucking parasite. the parasite that gave you every fucking thing you have in life. Its called symbiosis.

AnimusRex -> RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? (10/3/2010 1:13:31 AM)
OK, so looking though the replies, what is the message that comes through? 1. True Capitalism, or True Conservatism, the ideology preached by the modern American conservative movement is not based on actual real world examples that we can study and emulate; instead, it is an abstract theory that exists only in books. 2. According to Lockedaway, the belief system of the conservative movement is that the rich will get ever richer and the poor will get ever poorer, and this is good. Is this a correct intepretation of the comments?

popeye1250 -> RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? (10/3/2010 1:26:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 quote: ORIGINAL: thornhappy quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 It's Big Corporations that want to "run the world" they couldn't care less about the U.S. unless they can use us. I believe that's called capitalism, popeye. Thorn, wrong, that's called being a fucking parasite. the parasite that gave you every fucking thing you have in life. Its called symbiosis. Wilbeur, they don't "give" anyone anything.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? (10/3/2010 1:29:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AnimusRex OK, so looking though the replies, what is the message that comes through? 1. True Capitalism, or True Conservatism, the ideology preached by the modern American conservative movement is not based on actual real world examples that we can study and emulate; instead, it is an abstract theory that exists only in books. 2. According to Lockedaway, the belief system of the conservative movement is that the rich will get ever richer and the poor will get ever poorer, and this is good. Is this a correct intepretation of the comments? Not even close. 1. "True capitalism" is not preached by the "modern American conservative movement". 2. It is not a belief system, it is a natural consequence of capitalism that the gap between rich and poor (as groups) will grow. That is not the same as the poor getting poorer and that is not the same as any individual member of the "rich" or the "poor" remaining in that group. Did you really even look through the replies, or just come back with the same false premises you started with?

DomKen -> RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? (10/3/2010 3:15:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AnimusRex OK, so looking though the replies, what is the message that comes through? 1. True Capitalism, or True Conservatism, the ideology preached by the modern American conservative movement is not based on actual real world examples that we can study and emulate; instead, it is an abstract theory that exists only in books. True Capitalism has been tried. The period in the US after the Civil War and before Teddy Roosevelt was a period of virtually no business regulation. Unions were essentially nonexistent. It was a period when people were executed by the state for demonstrating in favor of a 40 hour work week. The company town and company store were common place. It is important to learn the lessons that history has to teach. Business must be tightly regulated and workers rights must be vigorously enforced or we will find ourselves back there again.

Moonhead -> RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? (10/3/2010 4:41:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 I don't really think that the U.S. could be described as a "capitalist" country anymore. We are handing out "foreign aid" to somewhere in excess of 130 differant countries, we have things like "the agency for international developement" which evidently their "goal" is to "help" foreign countries to become "competitors" of ours yet they tell us it's to ,"create new markets for our goods and services." Oh Really? In true "capitalism" you don't "help" your competition you fucking BURY them if you can! And in capitalism if you need more employees you raise the wages and increase the benefits until you get more, not hire people who sneak into our country illegally and will work for much less than U.S. Citizens. No, the U.S. is a long way away from being a capitalist country. In all the time I've seen you whining like a schoolgirl about foreign aid, you've never offered any figures about the vast sums that are being pumped out of your country. Got a percentage of the budget you can cite for this terrible waste of tax money, or even a figure for annual spending?

DomYngBlk -> RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? (10/3/2010 6:05:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydawg from 1969 till 1991, Somalia was a communist dictatorshipo allied with the USSR. Most of Africa is Socialist. Most Arab States are Socialist. Haiti has never had a stable Government, but many of the combatants there are fighting to establish Socialism. Your list is mostly backasswards. What you are calling "capitalist" are either socialist or recently liberated from Socialism. That you are unaware that most of Africa and Arab Nations are Socialist is typical. North Korea is socialist. South Korea is NOT. Which really is the point. Utopia is the domain of the left. Stupid nonsense. The right is not trying to create a Utopia, a perfect ssytem. Just to feed as many people as possible. A comparison of North to South Korea makes the point perfectly. Most arab states are kingdoms. Hence the use of the word Prince and Princess when speaking of their leaders.

hertz -> RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? (10/3/2010 6:25:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydawg North Korea is socialist. South Korea is NOT. Which really is the point. Utopia is the domain of the left. Stupid nonsense. The right is not trying to create a Utopia, a perfect ssytem. Just to feed as many people as possible. A comparison of North to South Korea makes the point perfectly. No, it doesn't. There are a number of reasons why North and South Korea have ended up in different situations. Their differing economic systems are only a part of the story.

DomYngBlk -> RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? (10/3/2010 6:38:19 AM)
And north korea isn't socialist. Totalitarian.

TheHeretic -> RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? (10/3/2010 6:47:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk And north korea isn't socialist. Totalitarian. Hardly mutually exclusive, Yngblk. Quite the opposite in fact.

hertz -> RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? (10/3/2010 7:00:38 AM)
What this thread needs, more than anything, is a little recognition that the economic system employed by a state is not the same as the socio-political system employed by a state. It is easily possible for a version of Capitalism to exist under Authoritarian conditions as it is for it to exist under Libertarian conditions. Yeah, that's right - the good old political compass strikes again... [img]http://www.hjackson.org/blog/political-compass-hitler-friedman-stalin-thatcher-ghandi.gif[/img] I still don't know what definition of 'conservative' is being used here.

DomYngBlk -> RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? (10/3/2010 7:04:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk And north korea isn't socialist. Totalitarian. Hardly mutually exclusive, Yngblk. Quite the opposite in fact. But one can't equate a socialist state (ie Norway) with a totalitarian state (ie north korea) and call them the same thing.

Moonhead -> RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? (10/3/2010 7:04:29 AM)
The Hitler/Thatcher one, by your compass.

Moonhead -> RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? (10/3/2010 7:08:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 Wilbeur, they don't "give" anyone anything. You were privately educated, then? Don't use the roads, call a security agency rather than the Police if you're house is being broken into, didn't get any benefits when you were in the army, none of that. If you have any suggestions as to how the basic social infrastructure that nobody except a government is willing to do as it isn't profitable can be funded other than through taxation, I'm sure most on here would be interested to hear what that is. Or are you just whining about government activities you had no problem with over the last eight years because you don't like the chap in the white house again?

hertz -> RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? (10/3/2010 7:11:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead The Hitler/Thatcher one, by your compass. That suggests that the conservative 'utopia' might appear quite tame to our eyes. Not so different from the US as it is now, or most of the rest of the western democracies, I guess. http://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2008

Moonhead -> RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? (10/3/2010 7:30:05 AM)
Yep. I'd imagine Animus was asking a rhetorical question to see if anybody could explain how western civilisation is insufficiently capitalist. Doesn't look like any of the hardcore Libertarian faithful on here have managed to come up much in that direction either. Hardly surprising, really...

lockedaway -> RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? (10/3/2010 8:07:17 AM)
"Tell me what business you are in and I'll hand your competitor a shovel. Such drivel, nobody seems to have any compassion anymore. " You said the stupid shit written above, slave? Here is my compassion for you. Providing you promise to move to another country of your choice, I will buy your one way ticket. YOU do not need to live in a free society because you do not want liberty. You want control, either to have it or to be controlled. Let me explain something to you. A free society does not compel "compassion" whatever the hell "compassion" means because "compassion is subjective. Got it? When you voluntarily give to charity, it is called "philanthropy". Understand? When your earnings are seized from you to give to people on welfare, or to give to third world countries or just to be generally mis-fucking-managed, it is called TYRANNY. The United States....is dying. We are in the process of making the greatest transfer of wealth to China and South America in our history and it will lead to our eventual collapse. YOUR president (cuz he sure as hell isn't mine) is capping our oil wells in the Gulf of Mexico because deep water drilling is too dangerous. But he is allowing Venezuela and other South American countries to drill in the same locations. So obviously it isn't too dangerous, it is just too dangerous for Americans? I hope you like the new country that is being created for you. I just hope that when the Republic of Texas actually DOES secede that Louisiana, Arkansas and Oklahoma goes with them.

AnimusRex -> RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? (10/3/2010 8:08:46 AM)
Thanks, Hertz for the graph, which I think works pretty well. And Moonhead puts his finger on what I am talking about, which is that the modern American conservative movement continues to cry out that we are not "capitalist" enough, that progressive taxation, social welfare programs business regulation, and labor unions destroy the economy. So the implication is that if only we lowered taxes, reduced the power of unions, eliminated social welfare programs, and business regulation we would have a better society. Which leads to my question of "where has this been tried and found to succeed?" I don't know of any nation that has both widespread middle class prosperity and liberty, which doesn't also have strong labor unions, business regulation and progressive taxation. The ideas embraced by the conservative movement only work within the pages of books and think tank analyses. Which is exactly why I say they have morphed into the mirror image of their hated enemies, the socialists.

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