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Kent State tape indicates pistol fire preceded National... - 10/9/2010 7:20:24 AM   
rulemylife


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Status: offline 		Kent State tape indicates altercation and pistol fire preceded National Guard shootings



KENT, Ohio -- A noisy, violent altercation and four pistol shots took place about 70 seconds before Ohio National Guardsmen opened fire on antiwar protesters at Kent State University, according to a new analysis of a 40-year-old audiotape of the event.

The discovery adds new perspective to -- and raises new questions about -- one of the signature events of the 20th century, after four decades of spirited discussion and research.

"They got somebody," an observer says. "Kill him!" at least two male voices repeatedly shout, followed by sounds of a struggle and a female voice yelling, "Whack that [expletive]!" or "Hit that [expletive]!" Four distinct shots matching the acoustic signature of a .38-caliber revolver then ring out, according to a review by New Jersey forensic audio expert Stuart Allen.

Earlier this year, Allen and colleague Tom Owen examined the recording at The Plain Dealer's request and determined that Guardsmen were given an order to prepare to fire moments before they unleashed a 13-second fusillade of rifle shots at a May 4, 1970 demonstration that killed four students and wounded nine others.

What compelled the Guard to shoot is the central mystery of the iconic event, which galvanized sentiment against the Vietnam War.

After uncovering the apparent command, Allen has continued to study and enhance the old recording, and determined this week that it also contains the clash and the pistol fire that precede the Guard volley.

Though the tussle and pistol shots, if authenticated, match some key details of a confrontation several witnesses reported seeing or hearing involving a pistol-waving Kent State student named Terry Norman, they raise many new questions.

Norman was photographing protestors that day for the FBI and carried a loaded .38-caliber Smith & Wesson Model 36 five-shot revolver in a holster under his coat for protection. Though he denied discharging his pistol, he previously has been accused of triggering the Guard shootings by firing to warn away angry demonstrators, which the soldiers mistook for sniper fire.





< Message edited by rulemylife -- 10/9/2010 7:35:14 AM >
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RE: Kent State tape indicates pistol fire preceded Nati... - 10/9/2010 8:13:13 AM   
FirmhandKY


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Status: offline 		Interesting news, rml.

Thank you.

Firm


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RE: Kent State tape indicates pistol fire preceded Nati... - 10/9/2010 8:15:45 AM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		I think the sort of incident that happened at Kent State was inevitable for that moment of our history. It's interesting to have some confirmation on disputed details of what stupid little thing snowballed, but ultimately, it's trivia.

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That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Kent State tape indicates pistol fire preceded Nati... - 10/9/2010 9:34:39 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I think the sort of incident that happened at Kent State was inevitable for that moment of our history. It's interesting to have some confirmation on disputed details of what stupid little thing snowballed, but ultimately, it's trivia.


It's not trivia for the families of the dead students nor is it trivia for those who suffered permanent injuries.



(The Picture from Kent State)





< Message edited by rulemylife -- 10/9/2010 9:41:19 AM >

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RE: Kent State tape indicates pistol fire preceded Nati... - 10/9/2010 10:17:41 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

It's not trivia for the families of the dead students nor is it trivia for those who suffered permanent injuries.


Nor is it trivia for the Guardsmen who heard fire, and reacted, but were later accused of lying, and charged with crimes.

Firm


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RE: Kent State tape indicates pistol fire preceded Nati... - 10/9/2010 10:27:21 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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Status: offline 		Im not sure whether it was this site or another where I discussed the reasons for my becoming disenchanted with the counter-culture movement I was heavily involved in and enlisting in the Army. It was Kent State that "turned me". I was there, visiting an ex girlfriend on my way to make a...ahem...deal, and it was the protest leaderships' intent to provoke the Guard into violence. Because of that I didn't attend and realized the hypocrisy of the movement. They were clearly willing to sacrifice a few students in the name of "non-violent civil disobedience".

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RE: Kent State tape indicates pistol fire preceded Nati... - 10/9/2010 11:14:01 AM   
lockedaway


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Status: offline 		I am certain that new our latest technological advancements and unfettered access to government documents would change a great deal of what we accept as historical fact.

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RE: Kent State tape indicates pistol fire preceded Nati... - 10/9/2010 11:40:31 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

It's not trivia for the families of the dead students nor is it trivia for those who suffered permanent injuries.





So criminal assault charges for the guys who attacked the photographer then, RML? Or are you just imitating another dim Dem who resorts to images of pathos when he can't think of anything to say?



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RE: Kent State tape indicates pistol fire preceded Nati... - 10/9/2010 11:54:40 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I think the sort of incident that happened at Kent State was inevitable for that moment of our history. It's interesting to have some confirmation on disputed details of what stupid little thing snowballed, but ultimately, it's trivia.


I agree. Tragic, but at this point, interesting details, changing little.

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RE: Kent State tape indicates pistol fire preceded Nati... - 10/9/2010 12:09:23 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

It's not trivia for the families of the dead students nor is it trivia for those who suffered permanent injuries.



So criminal assault charges for the guys who attacked the photographer then, RML? Or are you just imitating another dim Dem who resorts to images of pathos when he can't think of anything to say?


The photographer was working for the FBI.

The FBI should not have been enlisting student spies.

The FBI was subsequently reprimanded and reigned in for their borderline activities in the '60's and '70's.

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RE: Kent State tape indicates pistol fire preceded Nati... - 10/9/2010 12:18:15 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Im not sure whether it was this site or another where I discussed the reasons for my becoming disenchanted with the counter-culture movement I was heavily involved in and enlisting in the Army. It was Kent State that "turned me". I was there, visiting an ex girlfriend on my way to make a...ahem...deal, and it was the protest leaderships' intent to provoke the Guard into violence. Because of that I didn't attend and realized the hypocrisy of the movement. They were clearly willing to sacrifice a few students in the name of "non-violent civil disobedience".


The Guard should never have been there in the first place.

It was a political stunt by Rhodes to prove he was a "law and order" Governor.

Kent is in a rural area but just on the outskirts of Cleveland and Akron.  There was assistance available from numerous police departments in the area.



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RE: Kent State tape indicates pistol fire preceded Nati... - 10/9/2010 12:29:29 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

It's not trivia for the families of the dead students nor is it trivia for those who suffered permanent injuries.


Nor is it trivia for the Guardsmen who heard fire, and reacted, but were later accused of lying, and charged with crimes.

Firm




Ok, fine. To both of you; yes, I'm an insensitive bastard. For the individuals, confirmation and vindication are not trivial.

In fact, I believe I have had a complete dee-dee-dee on this whole topic. It may not be so trivial at all.

I'll get back.

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That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Kent State tape indicates pistol fire preceded Nati... - 10/9/2010 2:06:18 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


Ok, fine. To both of you; yes, I'm an insensitive bastard.


no!  no! ... wait!

I'm the insensitive bastard around here!

Firm





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RE: Kent State tape indicates pistol fire preceded Nati... - 10/9/2010 2:54:05 PM   
pogo4pres


Posts: 593
Joined: 1/14/2007
Status: offline 		FR


Still the best protest song EVER!! 


Tin soldiers and Nixon coming,
We're finally on our own.
This summer I hear the drumming,
Four dead in Ohio.

Gotta get down to it
Soldiers are cutting us down
Should have been done long ago.
What if you knew her
And found her dead on the ground
How can you run when you know?

Gotta get down to it
Soldiers are cutting us down
Should have been done long ago.
What if you knew her
And found her dead on the ground
How can you run when you know?

Tin soldiers and Nixon coming,
We're finally on our own.
This summer I hear the drumming,
Four dead in Ohio.



4 May, is a significant date in my life, aside from Kent State in 1970,  it was my first day of "basic training" at Lackland AFB in 1977, and 22 years later in 1999 was the date of my mother passing away.  I  always find it unusual that a single day, or in the case of the month of December, a single month can hold such import in one's life.

Historically,
Some Knucklehead in NJ


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RE: Kent State tape indicates pistol fire preceded Nati... - 10/9/2010 4:05:44 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline 		And the best prose that captured the recognition of the failure of the 60s:

"And that, I think, was the handle—that sense of inevitable victory over the forces of Old and Evil. Not in any mean or military sense; we didn’t need that. Our energy would simply prevail. There was no point in fighting—on our side or theirs. We had all the momentum; we were riding the crest of a high and beautiful wave ....

So now, less than five years later, you can go up on a steep hill in Las Vegas and look West, and with the right kind of eyes you can almost see the high-water mark —that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back."

HST


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Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

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RE: Kent State tape indicates pistol fire preceded Nati... - 10/10/2010 1:38:25 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		I was thinking about this subject a fair bit as I went about my day, yesterday. I was thousands of miles away, and 3 years old when this happened, but I have my own history with the sorts of things the FBI was up to in that era. I sometimes forget that what I just casually know to be true about the period, is still a shocking revelation for some, and something to be reflexively denied by more.

The story of shots in the crowd isn't new. Neither is the version where those shots were fired when a spy for the FBI panicked. Is this enough to take the lid off how and why those reports didn't make the final cut? By itself, I don't think it is. That makes my first impression of this story, both when I saw it in one of my news feeds and again here, the one I'm sticking with. It just doesn't matter.

Now if the people who know for sure, especially the photographer, decide it is time to let go of the burden they have been carrying for 40 years, then we will have something for the talk shows and the book stores.

In the grand picture, the elements for a tragedy like this existed in many places. The protesters thought the guns were loaded with blanks, and the guys who sent the soldiers out thought the hippies were a genuine threat. It was a misunderstanding, fated to get people killed.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to FirmhandKY)
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