RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (Full Version)

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GotSteel -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/11/2010 6:57:19 AM)

So calling someone who was shiting out a piece of sophistry to excuse their ridicule of those they disagreed with a weasely asshat wouldn't be an insult so long as the one hurling has the opinion that the recipiant is a weasel and has his head firmly imbedded in his ass about it?



mischoolboy -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/11/2010 6:58:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: odysseyIndeed

~ FR ~

If it is religion(specifically Christianity) that is a/the cause of homophobia because of those passages rather than already prejudiced people picking verses and using them out of context to try to justify their discrimination, why aren't all of the other sorts of people mentioned in the verse(liars, adulterers, thieves, etc.) just as discriminated against?





there are those who use religion as an excuse to hate on others. If there were no gays, they would find something else to hate others for. I think some people just have a need to hate others to feel better about themselves, there are versus in the bible that point to homesexuallity being wrong and they jump on those passages to excuse their behavior. You can find a passage to justify just about anything if you look hard enough.



Kirata -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/11/2010 7:12:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

So calling someone who was shiting out a piece of sophistry to excuse their ridicule of those they disagreed with a weasely asshat wouldn't be an insult so long as the one hurling has the opinion that the recipiant is a weasel and has his head firmly imbedded in his ass about it?

Yanno, I've been wondering why you're so prone to hurling insults and ridicule. [:D]

K.



DomKen -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/11/2010 7:36:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Shall I post all the many times you've defended christianity in a very personal manner? If it wasn't personal why do you spend so much time and effort writing in favor of it?:

I have no interest in listening to an irrelevant catalog of all the pathological ways you jumped from one manufactured conclusion to another.

You announced to the world that Christianity was my professed religion. That was a lie. You made it up.

If there was a link to a post of mine wherein I had professed Christianity as my religion, you would be shoving it in my face. But there isn't.

You lied. You got caught. Live with it, bozo.

K.


Ok then.

What are we expected to make of these posts?

Here's one in a thread expressly asking for advice from christians
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=1062441

Here's the first post in a thread where you argue quite passionately against calleding a christian terrorist a christian terrorist:
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2639251

Here you take exception to WBC being christian:
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2839568

Here you pretty clearly state a belief in some God:
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2914595

A christian theological argument:
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2155365

So tell me bozo when did you deconvert and become something other than the christian all these posts clearly show that you are?



rulemylife -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/11/2010 7:47:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: odysseyIndeed

If just reading about it in the Bible caused discrimination to occur, then everyone across the board who did any of the things listed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 would be discriminated against. People who fornicated couldn't get married, people who have cheated couldn't get housing, people who drink would be victims of hate crimes.

I understand that there are people who do bad things and who are prejudiced and try to use Holy text to justify what they've done and what they believe. I believe those people are prejudiced anyway though and would have been even if they had never read a verse in the Holy text of their choice.



Hate to tell you but every example you mentioned would have a righteous Christian denouncing a person for those things and more than likely discriminating against that person.

But let me ask you about your second point.  Where do you think all this prejudice and discrimination originates from? 

Did people just decide on their own that homosexuality was an abomination and then went to the Bible and saw their views reinforced? 



odysseyIndeed -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/11/2010 7:52:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mischoolboy

there are those who use religion as an excuse to hate on others. If there were no gays, they would find something else to hate others for. I think some people just have a need to hate others to feel better about themselves, there are versus in the bible that point to homesexuallity being wrong and they jump on those passages to excuse their behavior. You can find a passage to justify just about anything if you look hard enough.


I agree and as a Christian, I find it very disheartening when I see people using religion as an excuse to be unkind to others, especially when Jesus specifically says that everything hinges on two commandments - love God completely and love one another as you do yourself(Matthew 22:36-40).One of my favorite chapters in the Bible is 1 Corinthians 13 where love is described.

4Love endures long and is patient and kind; love never is envious nor boils over with jealousy, is not boastful or vainglorious, does not display itself haughtily.    5It is not conceited (arrogant and inflated with pride); it is not rude (unmannerly) and does not act unbecomingly. Love (God's love in us) does not insist on its own rights or its own way, for it is not self-seeking; it is not touchy or fretful or resentful; it takes no account of the evil done to it [it pays no attention to a suffered wrong].    6It does not rejoice at injustice and unrighteousness, but rejoices when right and truth prevail.    7Love bears up under anything and everything that comes, is ever ready to believe the best of every person, its hopes are fadeless under all circumstances, and it endures everything [without weakening].    8Love never fails [never fades out or becomes obsolete or comes to an end].

I just see no justification (or room) for prejudice in that description. I hope (and think) I am not alone.



rulemylife -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/11/2010 7:54:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mischoolboy

there are those who use religion as an excuse to hate on others. If there were no gays, they would find something else to hate others for. I think some people just have a need to hate others to feel better about themselves, there are versus in the bible that point to homesexuallity being wrong and they jump on those passages to excuse their behavior. You can find a passage to justify just about anything if you look hard enough.


Then it probably is a really, really, good book to base your life on.

What could be better than being able to justify anything you do based on the words an ancient culture?






Kirata -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/11/2010 8:05:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So tell me bozo when did you deconvert and become something other than the christian all these posts clearly show that you are?

I happen to know rather a good deal about religion, and not just Christianity. The subject was relevant to my area of study. But enough about me. All you're accomplishing here is to show the extent to which you'll go to defend your annoying habit of imagining facts that aren't. To wit, wanna point out in which one of those posts I professed Christianity as my religion?

Take your time.

K.



odysseyIndeed -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/11/2010 8:17:18 AM)

quote:



Hate to tell you but every example you mentioned would have a righteous Christian denouncing a person for those things and more than likely discriminating against that person.

But let me ask you about your second point.  Where do you think all this prejudice and discrimination originates from? 

Did people just decide on their own that homosexuality was an abomination and then went to the Bible and saw their views reinforced? 



I am a Christian, and try to be righteous, though obviously not perfect(nor will I ever be or have to be, thank Goodness :) ). I don't believe I've ever denounced a group of people. I also do not believe it is my place to judge others based solely on who they are or how they live their life. I have enough beams in my own eye to point out the motes in others, especially those who are not directly affecting my life in a negative way.

I think prejudice (and most negative things actually) stem from fear. Some stem from envy, which likely often stems from fear also :)
I think many homophobes are that way because-consciously or subconsciously- they have or fear they may have an attraction to a member of the same sex and they don't want to in their brain, so they revile it. Another reason for prejudice is ignorance. Prejudice is a learned behavior. Children grow up hearing and seeing people in their lives that they look up to or like who teach by words and actions their own prejudicial judgments.

Some might argue that since men wrote the Bible, if you believe that the Bible promotes homophobia then men/people would have had to be homophobic before it was written into the Bible. Otherwise, why would it be written down? I at least try not to write something and then think it :) .. typically something is thought and then written down.

Edited because it felt weird to say I was specifically a righteous Christian when I am not perfect and work on  being righteous. Saying I was one came across to me as saying I always achieved that aim and I'm certain I fail at times.



FirmhandKY -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/11/2010 8:36:08 AM)

I'm really not going to go through an analyze all of the posts you linked to, nor defend kirata as I don't believe he needs defending.

But your and rml's claim, and the way you work does deserve comment, as your claim of kirata's religious status and beliefs rings a bell with me as well.

First, both of you constantly display your hatred of anything religious, in almost a pathological manner.  Any comment or defense of anything related to religion (and especially Christianity) comes in for verbal abuse, sarcasm and belittlement.

It appears to me that you have no ability to be either open-minded or fair about any religious related issue, and you classify any comments which do not perfectly fit your prejudices and bigotry toward religion (Christianity) as coming from someone who is a "religious kook", a "fundamentalist" of the worst type, or someone who can not see any other point of view.

All of which are unfair and inaccurate classifications.

I've posted in several "religious" threads over the last few months, just because I've been tired of the constant, one-side and inaccurate portrayal of the great majority of Christians, and of religious people in general.  I generally do not talk about my personal beliefs, especially with any eye to conversion (although I may occasional mention some aspect of my personal beliefs, when it is germane to the argument).  I'm fairly confident that few on the forums really have any deep appreciation or understanding of my personal religious beliefs, in fact.  I suspect the case with kirata is similar.

You, on the other hand, attempt to put me (and anyone else) who doesn't publicly trash religion in a box of your own making, attributing things and beliefs which you don't understand, but which you abhor, fight and insult.

In other words, you often post like an ideologue and a bigot on this subject.

Part of the proof of your pathology is how you classify anyone who disagrees with you as a "liar", failing to understand or give allowances for the normal flow of human interaction and failing to consider the actual meaning of the word "lie" or "liar".  This constant "liar, liar, pants on fire" seems to be a pathological reflex on your part, and to people who aren't afflicted with your same disease, makes you appear vindictive, childish and petty.

For whatever reason, you seem to have a grandiose appreciation of your own righteousness and probity, yet do not extend even the basic courtesy to others.  You are "right" no matter what, and the part of the world which disagrees with you is wrong, evil and a "bunch of liars".

I know you are going through your own personal tribulations at the moment, and fully understand that you will see this as a challenge rather than an dispassionate analysis, although it is not meant as such.

But failure to speak up is a tacit approval of your beliefs and methods, as well as an encouragement of them.

I suggest you take some time away from the forums, deal with your personal issues, and return when you have a better handle on your emotions.

Firm



FirmhandKY -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/11/2010 8:39:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

But let me ask you about your second point.  Where do you think all this prejudice and discrimination originates from? 


The human heart.

Firm



DomKen -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/11/2010 9:07:55 AM)

I suggest you stop trying to put words in my mouth. I do not attack all religions or all religious people. I do not hate all religious people and actually have expressed my respect for some christian tradtions at various times.

You are simply seeing what you wish to see so as to confirm your meme that christians are being attacked and oppressed.

I further suggest you throw your computer out a window and have the electricity in your home disconnected. That way you will no longer encounter any opinions contrary to your own.



pogo4pres -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/11/2010 11:42:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I suggest you stop trying to put words in my mouth. I do not attack all religions or all religious people. I do not hate all religious people and actually have expressed my respect for some christian tradtions at various times.

You are simply seeing what you wish to see so as to confirm your meme that christians are being attacked and oppressed.

I further suggest you throw your computer out a window and have the electricity in your home disconnected. That way you will no longer encounter any opinions contrary to your own.



The religulious crowd seems to have mistaken you for me ken, I (no one else) am the one that clearly states he believes all religion to be BULLSHIT.  Now I reiterate for about the 10th fucking time, if you believe and it gives you comfort fine, I could not possibly care less.  On the other hand when the religious decide it is their fucking right to impose their values on the rest of us I call them on it.  

Maybe if the religious would accept my view as my own as I accept their views as their own, we'd all get along so much better. 


Religuliously,
Some Knucklehead in NJ



thishereboi -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/11/2010 2:49:57 PM)

quote:

The religulious crowd seems to have mistaken you for me ken, I (no one else) am the one that clearly states he believes all religion to be BULLSHIT.


I wondered what had happened to Brain and now I know, he just switched screen names. Who would have guessed it.

Oh and it's religious, not religulious. But who cares about spelling as long as you can hate it, right?[8|]



thishereboi -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/11/2010 2:54:38 PM)

Is that how it works. If you defend something, you must belong to the group. So tell us, when did you convert to the muslim faith?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_3361284/mpage_6/key_muslim/tm.htm#3361770





DomKen -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/11/2010 3:03:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Is that how it works. If you defend something, you must belong to the group. So tell us, when did you convert to the muslim faith?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_3361284/mpage_6/key_muslim/tm.htm#3361770




No, that's not how it works.

When a poster has a long history of posting supportive things about a single religion and attacks others, I can easily also present kirata's various attacks on Islam, then it is reasonable to come to the conclusion that he holds that faith.

When a poster supports telling teh truth about all faiths and publicly states his atheism it is reasonable to conclude that he really is an atheist.

You of course are a concern and tone troll and are quite boring.



peacefulplace -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/11/2010 3:24:06 PM)

~FR~

As I tried to post earlier on in this thread, this is not about Christianity; it is about ANY religion's taboos against homosexuality and that taboo's role in societal discrimination against gays. Admittedly, I do not know that much about Eastern religions, but I do remember being profoundly disappointed at the Dalai Lama's mild rebuke of homosexuality that I read in the 1990s. However, fundamentalists of the Christian, Jewish, and Muslim faiths all have a deeply ingrained disgust of homosexuality and, by default, homosexuals (and women~yes, they are related). Yet, at the same, time, these same religious zealots choose to not follow religious edicts from their holy texts because these things are against the law or common decency (incest, rape, slavery). So how can you pick and choose like that and NOT realize that you still live in the dark ages if you are using religion to justify your prejudices?

Also, I, too, am curious about dcnovice's question about what any gay members of collarme happen to think about this issue. I have felt completely marginalized in Christianity (the only religion I've ever tried or ever will) because of my status as a woman. What have gays felt as their experiences as members of religion?



thishereboi -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/11/2010 3:40:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Is that how it works. If you defend something, you must belong to the group. So tell us, when did you convert to the muslim faith?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_3361284/mpage_6/key_muslim/tm.htm#3361770




No, that's not how it works.
I know, I was being sarcastic.

When a poster has a long history of posting supportive things about a single religion and attacks others, I can easily also present kirata's various attacks on Islam, then it is reasonable to come to the conclusion that he holds that faith.
I have a long history of telling of people when they make racist cracks about others. Does that mean my skin will be darkening soon?

When a poster supports telling teh truth about all faiths and publicly states his atheism it is reasonable to conclude that he really is an atheist.
Yes, if he claims he in an atheist, it would probably be safe to assume he is. But what does that have to do with you claiming K must be a christian because he defends them?

You of course are a concern and tone troll and are quite boring.
And you end it with an insult. Why am I not surprised?



thishereboi -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/11/2010 3:43:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: peacefulplace

~FR~

As I tried to post earlier on in this thread, this is not about Christianity; it is about ANY religion's taboos against homosexuality and that taboo's role in societal discrimination against gays. Admittedly, I do not know that much about Eastern religions, but I do remember being profoundly disappointed at the Dalai Lama's mild rebuke of homosexuality that I read in the 1990s. However, fundamentalists of the Christian, Jewish, and Muslim faiths all have a deeply ingrained disgust of homosexuality and, by default, homosexuals (and women~yes, they are related). Yet, at the same, time, these same religious zealots choose to not follow religious edicts from their holy texts because these things are against the law or common decency (incest, rape, slavery). So how can you pick and choose like that and NOT realize that you still live in the dark ages if you are using religion to justify your prejudices?

Also, I, too, am curious about dcnovice's question about what any gay members of collarme happen to think about this issue. I have felt completely marginalized in Christianity (the only religion I've ever tried or ever will) because of my status as a woman. What have gays felt as their experiences as members of religion?


No, it's not just Christianity, but that seems to be the religion people enjoy bashing the most. At least on CM. As a lesbian, I have met a lot of assholes who use the bible to put us down. I feel sorry for them. But I have no problems with the church I go to. Most of the people there know I am gay and they don't care.



DomKen -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/11/2010 4:24:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Is that how it works. If you defend something, you must belong to the group. So tell us, when did you convert to the muslim faith?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_3361284/mpage_6/key_muslim/tm.htm#3361770




No, that's not how it works.
I know, I was being sarcastic.

When a poster has a long history of posting supportive things about a single religion and attacks others, I can easily also present kirata's various attacks on Islam, then it is reasonable to come to the conclusion that he holds that faith.
I have a long history of telling of people when they make racist cracks about others. Does that mean my skin will be darkening soon?

When a poster supports telling teh truth about all faiths and publicly states his atheism it is reasonable to conclude that he really is an atheist.
Yes, if he claims he in an atheist, it would probably be safe to assume he is. But what does that have to do with you claiming K must be a christian because he defends them?

You of course are a concern and tone troll and are quite boring.
And you end it with an insult. Why am I not surprised?


Actually you have a long history as a tone and concern troll. It is predictable and boring.

I will point out that you whine about even handedness but never chastise conservatives but routinely berate liberals. It makes you a hypocritical and partisan troll. I generally ignore you since you stay out of my conversations. I suggest that in the future you simply put me on ignore because your trolling will never have any effect on me and I will point out your hypocricy when you come out from under your bridge.



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