RE: Israeli cabinet approves racist loyalty oath

RE: Israeli cabinet approves racist loyalty oath (Full Version)

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Aylee -> RE: Israeli cabinet approves racist loyalty oath (10/20/2010 2:16:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hertz I was hoping to be able to refer to the use of a loyalty oath in the non-racist context of the US, but on checking my facts I discover that I don't actually know what the situation is in the US. Am I right in thinking the US supreme court ruled loyalty oaths to be unconstitutional? Umm. . . crazy I know, but doesn't this country require something similar be taken every four years? "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States." I am pretty sure that House Reps and Senetors have to state the same or at least close to it. Of course they are not going to state that they have the office of the president. Then there is the Oath of Citizenship. You do know what that is, don't you? "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God." So. . . you do not think that is a loyalty oath? Just curious.

Real0ne -> RE: Israeli cabinet approves racist loyalty oath (10/20/2010 2:49:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Such careful sourcing to make it appear racist. Here are some more sources that say it applies to all new citizens. http://abna.ir/data.asp?lang=3&id=208343 http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=190635 I do wonder how many non jews become Israeli citizens every year. quote: Nevertheless, he continued, it would be a mistake to force newcomers to pledge allegiance to Israel as a Jewish and democratic state, because no one really knows what “a Jewish state” (or a democratic one, for that matter) means. “It is an intentionally vague concept so that everyone in Israel can imagine it in his own way,” said Avineri. “If Israelis have no uniform conception of what a Jewish state is, how can we expect someone from the outside to know?” Avineri proposed that new citizens should pledge allegiance to “the legitimacy of Israel.” swear allegiance based on the extents of your imaginations!~! How novel! From ignorance to abject loonacy! Have the fear though, the courts will fix your imagination for ya! LMAO

Anaxagoras -> RE: Israeli cabinet approves racist loyalty oath (10/20/2010 7:10:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hertz Turns out the Israeli loyalty oath really was, as the news reports suggested, applicable to non-Jews only, and therefore racist. But Netanyahu has apparently thought better of that aspect of the bill and ordered a redrafting. quote: A proposed loyalty oath to Israel as a "Jewish and democratic state" should apply to all new citizens, not just to non-Jews, the Israeli prime minister has said after protests that the original plan for an oath was racist. ...Jamal Zahalka, chairman of Balad, a party representing Israeli-Arabs, said the new proposal "remains racist because it demands Palestinians debase themselves by pledging allegiance to the Jewish state ... If another country ever forced Jews to pledge allegiance to Christian or Muslim ideology, they would be accused of being antisemitic. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/oct/19/israeli-citizens-loyalty-oath-netanyahu It is comical to call the oath racist. The Jewish identity has some racial aspect like numerous other ethnic identities but it is relatively minor for the simple reason that it is not a singular racial identity. There are more Jews of Arab origin in Israel than Jews of a whiter caucasoid appearance. There are also black African people that are recognised as Jewish. Thus it is principally a cultural and religious identity. It has little to do with race ultimately so it is another pro-Palestinian absurdity to call this "racist" or "apartheid". It is akin to saying you are racist for preferring Roman Catholics. The most opponents of Israel could say is that it is xenophobic but the racism tag is so much more potent if you wish to destroy the reputation of a sovereign state. Many Muslims say the same thing when people are critical of Islam. As the name suggests it is discrimination applicable to race, not religion or culture. The context that Israel faces is one of being surrounded by extremely hostile Islamic states that simply do not want it to exist. This has been shown to be the case time and time again. These Islamic states do not want it to exist for one simple reason. It is a principally (but not exclusively) Jewish State right in the heartland of Dar al-Islam. As a result Israel’s oath for prospective citizens, as Aylee appears to suggest, needs to be responsive to serious external threats to its very existence. If these neighbouring states hate Israel for its Jewishness then Israel has a moral right to protect its Jewish character.

hertz -> RE: Israeli cabinet approves racist loyalty oath (10/20/2010 1:57:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee Umm. . . crazy I know, but doesn't this country require something similar be taken every four years? "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States." Is this the case? You have to swear every four years? The difference is that the US constitution is a rather wonderful document designed to protect the rights of all, irrespective of race, religion and creed, whereas the Israeli version is a rather sordid affair about pledging loyalty to a racial/religious ideology which by definition discriminates against those who sit outside that group. I have no difficulty with a state asking that its citizens be aligned to its values and principles as long as those values and principles are not deliberately racist or otherwise offensive.

Anaxagoras -> RE: Israeli cabinet approves racist loyalty oath (10/20/2010 3:42:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hertz The difference is that the US constitution is a rather wonderful document designed to protect the rights of all, irrespective of race, religion and creed, whereas the Israeli version is a rather sordid affair about pledging loyalty to a racial/religious ideology which by definition discriminates against those who sit outside that group. I have no difficulty with a state asking that its citizens be aligned to its values and principles as long as those values and principles are not deliberately racist or otherwise offensive. This Israeli-bashing from Hertz is unrelenting - it is absurd to say the proposed oath pledges loyality to a racial ideology or even a religious one. Obviously its function as described is to pledge allegiance to Israel as a principally Jewish state. Thus it does not pledge allegiance to a religion or a race but is to recognise the character of the state itself to which allegiance is placed. Other states in the region are overtly Islamic but unlike Israel they are not under attack due to their religious character. Even so several states do explicitly identify their national character as Islamic and Arabic in their constitutions. Note that Hertz in another thread sneers at the poor rating Israel got for journalistic freedom but then quotes Haaretz (an Israeli paper that is notoriously anti-Zionist) to back up his points on this thread. The truth is that Israel has as much press freedom as any other Western democracy because the press often acts very much against the interests of the government. There is a similar situation with the academia in Israel which isn't only critical of Zionism but is actually anti-Zionist. No doubt his beloved Iran which has absolutely no genocidal intent towards Israel has vastly more press freedom.

tazzygirl -> RE: Israeli cabinet approves racist loyalty oath (10/20/2010 4:53:51 PM)
quote: I was hoping to be able to refer to the use of a loyalty oath in the non-racist context of the US, but on checking my facts I discover that I don't actually know what the situation is in the US. Am I right in thinking the US supreme court ruled loyalty oaths to be unconstitutional? Again, you need to look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyalty_oath The SC has not declared these unconstitutional. And not everyone believes as you do in the following... quote: The difference is that the US constitution is a rather wonderful document designed to protect the rights of all, irrespective of race, religion and creed, whereas the Israeli version is a rather sordid affair about pledging loyalty to a racial/religious ideology which by definition discriminates against those who sit outside that group. Just look to your friends who fight Isreal to see how much they adore our constitution.

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