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Technology and the Law - 10/17/2010 3:12:11 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		SAN FRANCISCO – Yasir Afifi, a 20-year-old computer salesman and community college student, took his car in for an oil change earlier this month and his mechanic spotted an odd wire hanging from the undercarriage.

The wire was attached to a strange magnetic device that puzzled Afifi and the mechanic. They freed it from the car and posted images of it online, asking for help in identifying it.

Two days later, FBI agents arrived at Afifi's Santa Clara apartment and demanded the return of their property — a global positioning system tracking device now at the center of a raging legal debate over privacy rights.

One federal judge wrote that the widespread use of the device was straight out of George Orwell's novel, "1984".

"By holding that this kind of surveillance doesn't impair an individual's reasonable expectation of privacy, the panel hands the government the power to track the movements of every one of us, every day of our lives," wrote Alex Kozinski, the chief judge of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, in a blistering dissent in which a three-judge panel from his court ruled that search warrants weren't necessary for GPS tracking.

But other federal and state courts have come to the opposite conclusion.

..............


The federal appeals court based in Washington D.C. said in August that investigators must obtain a warrant for GPS in tossing out the conviction and life sentence of Antoine Jones, a nightclub owner convicted of operating a cocaine distribution ring. That court concluded that the accumulation of four-weeks worth of data collected from a GPS on Jones' Jeep amounted to a government "search" that required a search warrant.

Judge Douglas Ginsburg said watching Jones' Jeep for an entire month rather than trailing him on one trip made all the difference between surveilling a suspect on public property and a search needing court approval.

"First, unlike one's movements during a single journey, the whole of one's movements over the course of a month is not actually exposed to the public because the likelihood anyone will observe all those movements is effectively nil," Ginsburg wrote. The state high courts of New York, Washington and Oregon have ruled similarly.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101016/ap_on_re_us/us_gps_tracking_warrants

What do you think? Should search warrants be required to plant these devices?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Technology and the Law - 10/17/2010 4:20:57 AM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
Status: offline 		Yes - search warrant should be required. The whole point of the Judiciary is that it should protect the citizen from the actions of state bodies like the FBI.

Question: If the student has been unlawfully spied on, does he have a right to redress? If I was him, I'd want to sue the FBI to within an inch of their sorry hides.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Technology and the Law - 10/17/2010 7:38:27 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		That teck is pretty old.  

(in reply to hertz)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Technology and the Law - 10/17/2010 7:56:12 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		Absolutely a warrant with probable cause is required by law.

here are a few exceprts


Law enforcement advocates for the devices say
quote:


GPS can eliminate time-consuming stakeouts and old-fashioned "tails" with unmarked police cars

This is just SSDD....  convince you to acquiesce your rights for expedience!  Yes it costs to much great bullshit story to convince you to AGREE as in CONSENT to give up your rights.  -As in CONSENT TO BE GOVERNED beyond that of any slave in history.

Just another trick because in law, when you have an obligation to speak SILENCE IS ACQUIESCENCE!

If you do not speak against formally you AGREE and agency constantly fires a barrage of this kind of trash 24/7 at the people constantly trying to write the new contract that allows them to do this kind of shit!


George Washington University law professor Orin Kerr said the issue boils down to public vs. private.

That is true but what is bullshit is that public means government!  They want you to think public means out among others and it does not!  Your body is private your car is private convincing you by INFERENCE that that it is public takes them off the hook for fraud!!!!  WHen people figger out they are being scammed by every damn agency out there they will start making these agencys PROVE UP THE CLAIM in court and ONLY then will you see change not before!   Voting the bumms out till hell freezes over will not change a damn thing!

As long as the GPS devices are attached to vehicles on public roads, Kerr believes the U.S.

Public (TRUSTEES) superimposed (PRETENDED), as sovereign OVER-LORD to RULE their creator (GRANTOR of the trust), the sovereign people. 

Not sovereign to sovereign interaction as this country was intended to operate.

Supreme Court will decide no warrant is needed.

The fox guarding all that court/police et al REVENUE hen-house!

To decide otherwise, he said, would ignore a long line of previous 4th Amendment decisions allowing for warrantless searches as long as they're conducted on public property.

That is a tort and a trespass on the private person and the private persons property.  Public in terms of their jurisdiction means "government EMPLOYEES" not YOU being out amongst or in a group of other people. -so even when you are among others, your "PERSON" and effects are  private. 

UNLESS YOU ARE A TRUSTEE AKA GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE!!

That should be obvious to people. 

If you and your body and your property were NOT private anyone could grab your ass, screw you on the spot, take your car, use your cell phone put surveillance devices on your property with out your express consent---(PERMISSION).  -what they are doing is all fraud.

"The historic line is that public surveillance is not covered by the 4th Amendment," Kerr said.



They have CONSTRUED this guy to be a ward of the state that is why they use the word PUBLIC!

You see people you have to be a fucking attorney just to understand what the assholes are saying which is why this is SYNTAX TERRORISM and an attack on Americans, citizens, and lawful aliens.

AGAIN-

To decide otherwise, he said, would ignore a long line of previous 4th Amendment decisions allowing for warrantless searches as long as they're conducted on public property

You think they are talking about THEIR property when it is YOUR property as you are a shareholder as one of the public.

They are claiming that they have jurisdiction because you are on THEIR property but you AS A SHAREHOLDER wherever your feet land or your wheels are is YOUR PROPERTY as you are a party to the common land (public) as a SHAREHOLDER not a TRUSTEE and servant.

Now if this is not a huge scam and fraud being perpetrated upon the people and rather than protecting their rights subjecting them to slavery through their own ignorance please tell me what is.

In my world the ignorant has a right to their liberty and freedoms regardless of the level of their knowledge and expertise of lack thereof.


as long as they're conducted on public property

Again that applies to gubmint trustees NOT the people!

We own the fucking joint NOT them!







< Message edited by Real0ne -- 10/17/2010 8:10:46 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to hertz)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Technology and the Law - 10/17/2010 7:57:51 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		ummm.. excuse me... can you ever get your point across without attacking???

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Technology and the Law - 10/17/2010 8:13:15 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

ummm.. excuse me... can you ever get your point across without attacking???


I did not attack one poster on this board ether express or implied.

I am DEFENDING the guy not attacking him!

I am a peaceful person I never attack anyone or thing.

Did you mean strong criticism?

Besides look at the great education you are getting in law.  You can take this very fundamental "educational" material that that took me years of study that I pass on to you and build off of it and when you are competent and learned take it any court and kick azz!  






< Message edited by Real0ne -- 10/17/2010 8:18:28 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Technology and the Law - 10/17/2010 8:17:26 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		I never said you attacked anyone personally. There are different forms of aggression in the written form. Use of language, utilizing all caps... none of these are necessary to get your point across. What they do is make me just want to glaze right over your points. I dont want to read a post full of f-bombs and such.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Technology and the Law - 10/17/2010 8:21:23 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I never said you attacked anyone personally. There are different forms of aggression in the written form. Use of language, utilizing all caps... none of these are necessary to get your point across. What they do is make me just want to glaze right over your points. I dont want to read a post full of f-bombs and such.


You mean its no longer construed as [emphasis] and now that is an attack?

I emphasize specific words for a VERY good reason.

I apologize if it does not meet your aesthetic standards....




_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Technology and the Law - 10/17/2010 8:24:11 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		underlining is emphasis... bolding is emphasis... all caps is construed as yelling.

and of course you may post as you wish.

and of course i may ignore them as i wish.

please, do continue with your rant here though.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 10/17/2010 8:25:08 AM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Technology and the Law - 10/17/2010 8:24:21 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

Question: If the student has been unlawfully spied on, does he have a right to redress? If I was him, I'd want to sue the FBI to within an inch of their sorry hides.


Nope. All the evidence gathered improperly is thrown out. That's pretty standard.

The REAL bugaboo comes when evidence gathered illegally is used as the basis for evidence then gathered legally.  For example, let's say that a GPS attached to a car identifies that a suspect spends time at a storage locker. The cops then get a warrant and find incriminating evidence in the locker.  Although the evidence was found legally, the info about the locker itself was found illegally.


_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to hertz)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Technology and the Law - 10/17/2010 8:35:36 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Fruit of the poison tree?....Forcing law enforcement to show that they could have obtained the location of the storage locker independently from another wholely untainted source.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Technology and the Law - 10/17/2010 8:35:58 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

underlining is emphasis... bolding is emphasis... all caps is construed as yelling.

and of course you may post as you wish.

and of course i may ignore them as i wish.

please, do continue with your rant here though.


you are the one ranting about the way I post.

I defended that kid with a realone law review.  He can kick their asses if he knows how or hires a zillion dollar attorney and his name warren buffet etc LOL





_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Technology and the Law - 10/17/2010 8:39:28 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

Question: If the student has been unlawfully spied on, does he have a right to redress? If I was him, I'd want to sue the FBI to within an inch of their sorry hides.


Nope. All the evidence gathered improperly is thrown out. That's pretty standard.

The REAL bugaboo comes when evidence gathered illegally is used as the basis for evidence then gathered legally.  For example, let's say that a GPS attached to a car identifies that a suspect spends time at a storage locker. The cops then get a warrant and find incriminating evidence in the locker.  Although the evidence was found legally, the info about the locker itself was found illegally.



circular reasoning man.

your are advocating direct violation of the 1st, 4th, 5th, 9th, 10th with your position.

you may wish to review how to distinguish public from public in my previous post.




< Message edited by Real0ne -- 10/17/2010 8:41:34 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Technology and the Law - 10/17/2010 10:13:49 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		This is an interesting situation. I think these trackers certainly qualify as an intrusion, just as I think that simply getting the OnStar information from cars so equipped, or the cell phone location record, should require the proper process of the 4th Amendment.



_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Technology and the Law - 10/17/2010 10:27:24 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

Question: If the student has been unlawfully spied on, does he have a right to redress? If I was him, I'd want to sue the FBI to within an inch of their sorry hides.


Nope. All the evidence gathered improperly is thrown out. That's pretty standard.

The REAL bugaboo comes when evidence gathered illegally is used as the basis for evidence then gathered legally.  For example, let's say that a GPS attached to a car identifies that a suspect spends time at a storage locker. The cops then get a warrant and find incriminating evidence in the locker.  Although the evidence was found legally, the info about the locker itself was found illegally.



circular reasoning man.

your are advocating direct violation of the 1st, 4th, 5th, 9th, 10th with your position.

you may wish to review how to distinguish public from public in my previous post.



I'm stating that evidence found improperly will be thrown out, and asking a question about evidence found legally but the chain that it was arrived at, was illegal.  I'm not advocating anything.

I consider my car to be private property.  The roads that it drives on are public.  So the car's movements could be argued either way, to be public or private.


_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Technology and the Law - 10/17/2010 11:46:21 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

Question: If the student has been unlawfully spied on, does he have a right to redress? If I was him, I'd want to sue the FBI to within an inch of their sorry hides.


Nope. All the evidence gathered improperly is thrown out. That's pretty standard.

The REAL bugaboo comes when evidence gathered illegally is used as the basis for evidence then gathered legally.  For example, let's say that a GPS attached to a car identifies that a suspect spends time at a storage locker. The cops then get a warrant and find incriminating evidence in the locker.  Although the evidence was found legally, the info about the locker itself was found illegally.



circular reasoning man.

your are advocating direct violation of the 1st, 4th, 5th, 9th, 10th with your position.

you may wish to review how to distinguish public from public in my previous post.



I'm stating that evidence found improperly will be thrown out, and asking a question about evidence found legally but the chain that it was arrived at, was illegal.  I'm not advocating anything.

I consider my car to be private property.  The roads that it drives on are public.  So the car's movements could be argued either way, to be public or private.


Generally speaking your car is private property if we do not include that the state was given the manufacturers certificate of origin (title) upon which they issue a "certificate" of title to you which means "evidence" that title exists since certificate of title is not in itself title and to be an allodial owner you need title.

However that aside lets assume your car is 100% your property.

The public in the sense of a road is joint tenancy.  The space you occupy on that road is your private domain since as I said you are a lawful shareholder.

The public is in a political sense and is the gubmint trustees in the execution of their sworn duties UNDER the constitution (you are over it) which are to uphold the rules of the constitution which they swore to uphold your rights!

Hence placing any kind of device on someones car is trespass and a tort.

In as much as evidence goes, another tort because they did the acts without constitutional authority hence operating outside their jurisdiction and caused the kid personal injury because now the kid must go to a court to defend a right they should have protected in the first place.

Do I hear pass that bond over to me?

The kid needs to get an attorney to get the evidence thrown out.  If the attorney does not litigate the matter it will NOT get thrown out.

Courts are not about whats right, they are about whats "argued".  So there is no assurance what so ever that any remedy will be had for that kid.

My point is that several rights were violated to get to that point once they trespassed on the kids property and case.


when these guys talk about something being constitutional they are always talking about gubmint employees and those who "consent" to be "SUBJECTS" to it or citizens of it.





< Message edited by Real0ne -- 10/17/2010 11:50:08 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Technology and the Law - 10/17/2010 12:32:00 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		Id love to find one of those babies on my car. I'd stick it to a shipping container that was headed for a port city and watch the Fibbies go APESHIT

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Technology and the Law - 10/17/2010 2:32:53 PM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Id love to find one of those babies on my car. I'd stick it to a shipping container that was headed for a port city and watch the Fibbies go APESHIT


The when they turn up whining about their missing property, deny all knowledge of it - it's not as if they'll wanna go to court over it.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Technology and the Law - 10/17/2010 2:52:07 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Id love to find one of those babies on my car. I'd stick it to a shipping container that was headed for a port city and watch the Fibbies go APESHIT


The when they turn up whining about their missing property, deny all knowledge of it - it's not as if they'll wanna go to court over it.




BINGO

(in reply to hertz)
Profile   Post #: 19
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