Physics, Psychics, Religion and "Spooky Things" (Full Version)

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FirmhandKY -> Physics, Psychics, Religion and "Spooky Things" (10/18/2010 10:00:37 PM)

In our occasional discussions about religion, I've mentioned the theories about the possibilities of "the quantum mind", a "holographic universe" and the possibilities of an actual human soul.

Now there seems to be some experimental proof starting to be found for "spooky things" that may relate to these issues.

Have Scientists Finally Discovered Evidence for Psychic Phenomena?!
New studies show people can anticipate future events.
Published on October 11, 2010
by Melissa Burkley, Ph.D.

Dr. Bem, a social psychologist at Cornell University, conducted a series of studies that will soon be published in one of the most prestigious psychology journals (Journal of Personality and Social Psychology). Across nine experiments, Bem examined the idea that our brain  has the ability to not only reflect on past experiences, but also anticipate future experiences. This ability for the brain to "see into the future" is often referred to as psi phenomena.

Although prior research has been conducted on the psi phenomena - we have all seen those movie images of people staring at Zener cards with a star or wavy lines on them - such studies often fail to meet the threshold of "scientific investigation." However, Bem's studies are unique in that they represent standard scientific methods and rely on well-established principles in psychology. Essentially, he took effects that are considered valid and reliable in psychology - studying improves memory, priming facilitates response times - and simply reversed their chronological order.

...

These are just two examples of the studies that Bem conducted, but his other studies showed similar "retroactive" effects. The results clearly suggest that average "non-psychic" people seem to be able to anticipate future events.

...

So if we accept that these psi phenomena are real, how then can we explain them without throwing out our entire understanding of time and physics? Well, the truth is that these effects are actually pretty consistent with modern physics' take on time and space. For example, Einstein believed that the mere act of observing something here could affect something there, a phenomenon he called "spooky action at a distance."

Similarly, modern quantum physics has demonstrated that light particles seem to know what lies ahead of them and will adjust their behavior accordingly, even though the future event hasn't occurred yet. For example, in the classic "double slit experiment," physicists discovered that light particles respond differently when they are observed [for a simple explanation of this experiment, see this video]. But in 1999, researchers pushed this experiment to the limits by asking "what if the observation occurred after the light particles were deployed." Surprisingly, they found the particles acted the same way, as if they knew they were going to be observed in the future even though it hadn't happened yet.

Interesting information.  Not that it "proves" anything, but it does tend to support that there are things that we simply do not understand about us, and the universe.

Firm




popeye1250 -> RE: Physics, Psychics, Religion and "Spooky Things" (10/18/2010 10:17:26 PM)

Firm, there may be something to that!
Everytime I make a comment unfavorable to "Democrats" Rule and slavemike ~react~ like turning on a light switch!
I can almost predict it ahead of time! Uncanny.
Don't believe me? I'll do it again sometime this week. When they start ranting & raving I get a mental image of them like a steam kettle whistling and the steam kettle has little arms on the side and a little steam kettle face like in a cartoon.
"TweeeeeeEEEEEET!!!!!!!! FUCKIN' *POPEYE!!!!!* ARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!"
"He's a fucking CONSERVATIVE!!! I *KNOW* HE IS!!!!! Why won't anyone BELIEVE ME!!!!! TweeeeeeeeEEEEEEEEEEETTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!"




Musicmystery -> RE: Physics, Psychics, Religion and "Spooky Things" (10/18/2010 10:19:23 PM)

Mostly, it shows that we cling to assumptions as fact and apply them to paradigms where they don't apply.

At the speed of light, time is irrelevant. There is no future, only "now." Yet we discuss this as if applies in daily life--a fallacy of composition (atoms are colorless, cats are made of atoms, so cats are colorless).

We also know atoms are mostly space, and we are made of atoms, and are hence mostly space--energy, really. Yet this clearly is not our experience.

Capra has a long explanation for this--temporal/spacial probabilities are hard to collapse. Hence, the physical world--and linear time.




TheHeretic -> RE: Physics, Psychics, Religion and "Spooky Things" (10/18/2010 10:28:14 PM)

Intriguing article. Why did the author have to go for the cheesy ending, though?




TheHeretic -> RE: Physics, Psychics, Religion and "Spooky Things" (10/18/2010 10:32:07 PM)

So are you completely rejecting the possibility of precognitive incidents, Muse?




Real0ne -> RE: Physics, Psychics, Religion and "Spooky Things" (10/19/2010 12:19:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Mostly, it shows that we cling to assumptions as fact and apply them to paradigms where they don't apply.

At the speed of light, time is irrelevant. not so
There is no future, only "now."
"works in pleadings"
Yet we discuss this as if applies in daily life--a fallacy of composition (atoms are colorless, cats are made of atoms, so cats are colorless).

We also know atoms are mostly space, and we are made of atoms, and are hence mostly space--energy, really. Yet this clearly is not our experience.

Capra has a long explanation for this--temporal/spacial probabilities are hard to collapse. Hence, the physical world--and linear time.




no speed limit, lemw's long time proven at 1.5*c

likewise some neutrinos




Hillwilliam -> RE: Physics, Psychics, Religion and "Spooky Things" (10/19/2010 5:04:08 AM)

May the FORCE be with you.




Real0ne -> RE: Physics, Psychics, Religion and "Spooky Things" (10/19/2010 5:53:14 AM)

Einstein theoretical limitation




DomKen -> RE: Physics, Psychics, Religion and "Spooky Things" (10/19/2010 6:04:12 AM)

Reading through the actual article
http://dbem.ws/FeelingFuture.pdf

I can state that his experiments were designed poorly and his sample sizes are too small to draw the conclusions he draws.




Moonhead -> RE: Physics, Psychics, Religion and "Spooky Things" (10/19/2010 6:07:17 AM)

You get that with a lot of research on parapsychology, sadly.




Musicmystery -> RE: Physics, Psychics, Religion and "Spooky Things" (10/19/2010 6:27:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

So are you completely rejecting the possibility of precognitive incidents, Muse?

And speaking of trouble reasoning...

Read what I actually wrote. You're a smart guy when you're in the mood.




TheHeretic -> RE: Physics, Psychics, Religion and "Spooky Things" (10/19/2010 6:30:55 AM)

I did read it, Muse. I'm asking a straight question.




mnottertail -> RE: Physics, Psychics, Religion and "Spooky Things" (10/19/2010 6:42:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Einstein theoretical limitation


I don't know exactly where you are with this, you are so far from connected to reality both in logic and in your rants, but:

If you are on about the speed of light, it is no theoretical limitation.

Einstein said (very much along the lines of; if not exactly):

In the ponderable universe, no material object can exceed the speed of light.

note the use of ponderable, material.

so if there is a 'thing' (and I hesitate to use that, because that sort of intimates 'material', but the english language while full and rich; there are some things its just not designed to do...)

cannot concievably be realized or sensed, even indirectly,  and really has no effect that we could detect on us.   sorta like talking to a dead guy.  fugazi, no good canoe, not real, nothing, the void.




Musicmystery -> RE: Physics, Psychics, Religion and "Spooky Things" (10/19/2010 6:58:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I did read it, Muse. I'm asking a straight question.

OK. Then you're completely missing the point (for real, not in the "we disagree" sense often used here).

Your question in that context has no meaning. You may as well have asked, "So you think cats can't have color?"

Nor is this a dismissal. It's a point of fact about the underlying aspects of this question and a common fundamental error.





Real0ne -> RE: Physics, Psychics, Religion and "Spooky Things" (10/19/2010 7:12:14 AM)

its where the presumptions of the speed limit come from




mnottertail -> RE: Physics, Psychics, Religion and "Spooky Things" (10/19/2010 7:19:35 AM)

the whale is undoubtably one of the largest mammals alive today




TheHeretic -> RE: Physics, Psychics, Religion and "Spooky Things" (10/19/2010 7:36:36 AM)

Then I'm going to hope the thread remains sane until this evening, Muse.




Kirata -> RE: Physics, Psychics, Religion and "Spooky Things" (10/19/2010 7:36:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I can state that his experiments were designed poorly and his sample sizes are too small to draw the conclusions he draws.

And we'll just take your word for it? I don't think so, not with your history of credibility.

This article reports 9 experiments, involving more than 1,000 participants... The research strategy was to design experiments and employ statistical procedures that were as simple, as transparent, and as familiar as possible... Finally, I have analyzed and reported alternative indices of psi performance, (e.g., both the hit rate and phi in some of the binary choice experiments) and alternative treatments of the data (e.g., different outlier cutoff criteria and data transformations in the priming experiments) to confirm the consistency of the results across these variations.

Perhaps you will explain to us why we should believe that your knowledge of experimental design is superior to that of these Cornell researchers and the reviewers who accepted this 'poorly designed' study for publication.

K.




DomKen -> RE: Physics, Psychics, Religion and "Spooky Things" (10/19/2010 8:55:38 AM)

Ok, If you insist.

The first experiment descibed, anticipation of erotic images, uses a sample of only 100 people, each one making 36 choices, and claims that a rate of choosing the porn image over the blank image of 53.1% was statistically significant while saying the rate of choosing the nonerotic pic was 49.8%. Sounds like a big deal but how many successes does that actuall work out to?

40 of the 100 only had 12 erotic pics out of the 36 trials and the remaining 60 had 18 (this is fishy in and of itself as it creates 2 different pools of data that he combines into one). thats 1560 trials. 53.8% is 839.28 (so some rounding has occured or some trials were excluded, which is not available from the presented data). 50% would be 780. The experiment would be expected to approach 50% under the null hypothesis. So we're dealing with 59 anomolous succesful trials. That's on the edge of statistically significant (Just for a ballpark I'd expect a 5% deviation for a 1500 trial sample before I'd start writing papers making claims). So what should have been done is to repeat the experiment with a much larger sample (say 5000 people all with the same protocol) where a 4% variance would be statistically significant.

Then we move on to the next experiment (the subliminal negative image one) and here we have 150 participants exposed to 36 trials. For a total of 5400 trials. Here the hit rate is much lower (51.7%) or 2791.8 versus 2700 expected. The author spends a great deal of time assuring the reader that the much reduced hit percentage remains anomolous but what I see is that the larger sample size is trending to the expected 50% outcome which is what is expected by the null hypothesis.

The major failing in this paper is treating this as a population study. These tests could be useful as a screening device. People with anomolously high hit rates should have been tested much mre extensively to see if, over a large number of trials under varying conditions and protocols, they continued to outperform random chance.




Kirata -> RE: Physics, Psychics, Religion and "Spooky Things" (10/19/2010 10:05:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Ok, If you insist... we're dealing with 59 anomolous succesful trials. That's on the edge of statistically significant... Then we move on to the next experiment... the much reduced hit percentage remains anomolous but...

Give me a break, you can't even spell "anomalous" correctly...

A meta-analysis of all forced-choice precognition experiments appearing in English language journals between 1935 and 1977 was published by Honorton and Ferrari (1989). Their analysis included 309 experiments conducted by 62 different investigators involving more than 50,000 participants. Honorton and Ferrari reported a small but consistent and highly significant hit rate (Mean z = 0.69, combined z = 12.14, p = 6 Ă— 10-27). They also concluded that this overall result was unlikely to be significantly inflated by the selective reporting of positive results (the so-called file-drawer effect): There would have to be 46 unreported studies averaging null results for every reported study in the meta-analysis to reduce the overall significance of the database to nonsignificance.

Just as research in cognitive social psychology has increasingly pursued the study of cognitive and affective processes that are not accessible to conscious awareness and control (Bargh & Ferguson, 2000), research in psi has followed the same path, moving from explicit forced-choice guessing tasks to experiments using subliminal stimuli and implicit, indirect, or physiological responses. The trend is exemplified by several recent "presentiment" experiments, pioneered by Radin (1997), in which physiological indices of participants’ emotional arousal were monitored as participants viewed a series of pictures on a computer screen. Most of the pictures were emotionally neutral, but a highly arousing negative or erotic image was displayed on randomly selected trials. As expected, strong emotional arousal occurred when these images appeared on the screen, but the remarkable finding is that the increased arousal was observed to occur a few seconds before the picture appeared, before the computer has even selected the picture to be displayed. The presentiment effect has also been demonstrated in an fMRI experiment that monitored brain activity (Bierman & Scholte, 2002) and in experiments using bursts of noise rather than visual images as the arousing stimuli (Spottiswoode & May, 2003). A review of presentiment experiments prior to 2006 can be found in Radin (2006, pp. 161-180).


Maybe there's something going on here that you just don't want to acknowledge.

K.




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