RE: UK Government 'too stupid for words' shocker (Full Version)

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Aneirin -> RE: UK Government 'too stupid for words' shocker (10/23/2010 8:45:02 AM)

But until we try, we don't know, so are forever held in check by possibilities which might exist or not and in the meantime, we are saddled with the same shite we always get, deserve to get by voting on the side of comfortable safety rather than following our own hearts.

Well trained aren't we.



FullCircle -> RE: UK Government 'too stupid for words' shocker (10/23/2010 9:11:57 AM)

We don't have to try brushing our teeth with razor blades to know it isn't a good idea.

The conservatives aren't going to do much in government, they don't have the spending power to do anything. They have about as much ability to direct a country as a liquidator has to reinvigorate a bankrupt business. This is what their big society spiel was all about i.e. 'You fix it within your community, give your time for free etc. government is one part of society and not the only thing responsible for your social woes. etc'

Yes you aren't going to get much from government for the foreseeable future but at least they aren't trying to stoke up social hatred between us all.



hertz -> RE: UK Government 'too stupid for words' shocker (10/23/2010 9:27:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

The conservatives aren't going to do much in government, they don't have the spending power to do anything.



But that's the point. It costs nothing to dismantle the welfare state. And much as this looks like it is about debt, it is actually an ideological act of war.



FullCircle -> RE: UK Government 'too stupid for words' shocker (10/23/2010 9:37:33 AM)

This is what the opposition says but in truth I see it from both perspectives and can't decide what viewpoint to come down on. Although I do remember living with the previous conservative government and it all seems rather familiar (no optimism). I think they invented JSA i.e. the idea that it's an allowance to help you look for work not to help you live. So you can afford to buy a pen and paper but not a loaf of bread.

We can say all these things but Labour had plenty of time in power but failed to reduce the pay gap and increase social mobility.

So there are two approaches to helping people out of poverty with the latter being the tough love (conservative approach). Let us forget the LibDems because they've been a non entity.



hertz -> RE: UK Government 'too stupid for words' shocker (10/23/2010 9:53:27 AM)

New Labour was a serious waste of time - there's little arguing with that...



Aneirin -> RE: UK Government 'too stupid for words' shocker (10/23/2010 9:53:57 AM)

Well talking in the pub last night, and the consensus of oppinion was that were we live in the country, these jobs the government are going to force the unemployed to take, we had to ask where are they. Sure there are jobs about, but there is a problem with what jobs are around, they don't pay enough for a person to survive on the wages offered.

For example, say a single male is forced to take a job on offer, what would the pay have to be to ensure the person is not working towards out and out poverty. Lets look at the cost of housing, social housing is screwed, so what is there, nothing but private lets and that costs, my own abode being the measiliest, a 5m x 4m studio flat is £400 a month and that around here is fairly cheap, then there is transport, not everyone has a car, I had to get rid of mine because I could no longer afford to run it, and public transport is unreliable and expensive, £3.30 to get six miles into town further more stuff any chance of getting to work before 7am, as the buses only start then and give up at 11pm. Then there is food, has anyone noticed the rise in costs of the staples, I have, for I watch prices closely, one has to, to make what I get last. Then the utilities, electricity, gas and water, down here you understand we pay the highest water charges in the country and finally not forgetting the poll tax. We last night estimated one would need at least a thousand take home per month to survive on a basic level down here without benefit assistance, but oddly enough jobs that pay that kind of sum are very scarce if available at all otherwise people would be taking those jobs and there wouldn't be so many people living on the benefits.

One person hearing our conversation shouted out, '' you don't have to pay a mortgage'', the answer shouted back was,'' I don't have anywhere to live'', which kind of shut that guy up as could he imagine himself sleeping in a boat behind the pub on the only free mooring in this city. The sad fact is many of whom I know are living on boats and in caravans parked in winter storage areas, affordable housing denied to them, all unattached males of all ages, ex servicemen and all. I n fact a local phenomena is people buying or otherwise obtaining knackered unseaworthy boats and dragging them up on the mud next to the sewerage works so they have somewhere to sleep.

So what we have come to understand is though the wonderful government and the journalists spout on from their ivory towers, they really have not got the first clue what it is like in reality for those people they attack, for it is quite definately an us and them scenario, they have in effect declared war on people that do not deserve it, and all that I suspect to make political hay to shift the focus of public anger away from the true cause.



Anaxagoras -> RE: UK Government 'too stupid for words' shocker (10/23/2010 10:15:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue

That's all very worthy and fluffy.

It's also, if you'll pardon me, bilge. One group of greedy bastards got us all into this, by selling shit packaged as gold, among themselves. If the fallout remained among themselves and their greedy brethren then that would be fine, but it didn't, it isn't, and there's also no reason why it can't happen again tomorrow. Society as a whole wasn't greedy, and society as a whole didn't benefit when times were "good".

Seize their assets, tax them into poverty, and treat them like the social disease they are.

Oh, and before some apologist starts bleating on about the "benefits" of sucking up to the banking classes, bear in mind that, at last count, on the last set of figures I saw, their impact upon the general economy, as opposed to their own little pond, was something in the order of a factor of 25 times more harm than good done (revenue vs. debt incurred). If that were a doctor, or a teacher, or a fireman, or a taxi driver, they'd have been fired and left penniless a long time ago.

Their only defence against being judged for the crimes of having made us all immeasurably poorer is that, if we give them the lot again they might make us slightly richer. Fuck that, fuck them, and can we please start treating these anal warts as the non-productive waste of good oxygen they are.



To be honest, at this stage I won't "pardon" you as I think you need to tone down your language if discussion is to remain civilised. I really don't think you read the first post I wrote that you responded to. I did say we need to learn lessons after what happened so it never happens again. That is perhaps the most important issue but please note, it needs calm reasoned discussion. Clearly the financial sector cannot regulate itself and so much greater external regulation is necessary as is far greater accountability and scrutiny.

The illegitimate use of finances or undue risk taking should be treated as a crime in the same way as armed robbery so these people will think twice before playing with the money of others again. It is in no way "fluffy" to say the bankers should be punished harshly. Those that are found guilty of doing wrong often have their assets stripped in numerous countries so your attitude that they are all getting off scott free is incorrect. It is true though that too many as still in positions of influence and that needs to be rectified. You also seem to think they are not being treated like social diseases. There is massive criticism and anger of these people and rightly so. I have no particular liking for the banking profession but it is necessary for a functioning economy. People like yourself need to calm down and be open to ways of curing this financial disease before it takes everyone down.



FullCircle -> RE: UK Government 'too stupid for words' shocker (10/23/2010 10:28:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
The illegitimate use of finances or undue risk taking should be treated as a crime in the same way as armed robbery so these people will think twice before playing with the money of others again.

What is the right level of risk taking? We can't legislate it because we only care about it when it doesn't go our way.

If we dictated risk level then they'd be no profit because the risks people took would be predictable to both the people taking the risks and their competitors. It's the only business I knew where profit is generated from correctly guessing an opinion as to the value of something at any given time.



Anaxagoras -> RE: UK Government 'too stupid for words' shocker (10/23/2010 10:34:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
The illegitimate use of finances or undue risk taking should be treated as a crime in the same way as armed robbery so these people will think twice before playing with the money of others again.

What is the right level of risk taking? We can't legislate it because we only care about it when it doesn't go our way.

If we dictated risk level then they'd be no profit because the risks people took would be predictable to both the people taking the risks and their competitors. It's the only business I knew where profit is generated from correctly guessing an opinion as to the value of something at any given time.


You are right about the above but I was referring more to the sub-prime lending. More generally there has also been a lot of reckless lending from banks in recent years as markets became increasingly liberal which has partly caused this mess.



FullCircle -> RE: UK Government 'too stupid for words' shocker (10/23/2010 10:52:36 AM)

Yes the real problem with subprime lending is that there is no correction in the value of the property in a given area. If people can always afford it through bank loans then people will always buy it. I never really understood why this was not obvious from the start, I guess it's the idea that you want to sell finance as a product in its own right. The risk is with the bank rather than the property developer or manufacturer etc. the risk is always hiding somewhere in society.



RapierFugue -> RE: UK Government 'too stupid for words' shocker (10/23/2010 10:54:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
You also seem to think they are not being treated like social diseases. There is massive criticism and anger of these people and rightly so.


In the UK absolutely nothing of any real significance has been done to curb them. They're still getting bonuses of millions, still avoiding tax, and still placing national and international financial security at risk.

Listening to people discuss them, and more importantly to consider them a "necessary evil" is a bit like listening to turkeys discussing which present they're going to get the farmer for Christmas.

They should be singled out and dealt with financially – they (and their greed) were the cause of the current crisis, and it’s high time they were forced to sort the mess they started.



Aneirin -> RE: UK Government 'too stupid for words' shocker (10/23/2010 2:45:51 PM)

Personaly, I agree with that, if this country is so far up shit creek due to money, then the people that were instrumental in creating this mess should be at the forefront sorting it out, but no, instead they are left alone so the poor of the country can  suffer.

As I have said earlier the jobs that the on benefits are going to be forced to take might just think of another option open to them, especially when in the same cost cutting measures it was announced the police have also to cut their staff.

But if the police, you know those that are bound by law to protect the public are overstretched to the point of ineffectivness, then they fail in their duty to protect the public from people who will not tow Camerons illogical line and seek to become self employed of a sort to make ends meet.

So, this is not so much an attack on the poor only, but an attack on society as a whole, for without effective law and order chaos usually ensues.

Now perhaps Cameron is so far out of touch it is laughable or he is just taking a gamble, a gamble that if he crucifies the voter and leaves the banks alone somehow everything will come right, maybe he has an angle on things, it might work, but what he fails to take into account is people and their own mind, they might very well do the opposite to what he is expecting leaving  the country in a bigger disaster than what Labour left.

But I suspect he has considered that and at the end of the day probably doesn't care as long as the wealthy stay wealthy and the poor  stay poor or become totally in the control of the wealthy as it was in the past.



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