RE: Limits and respecting of them, wrong or right?

RE: Limits and respecting of them, wrong or right? (Full Version)

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leadership527 -> RE: Limits and respecting of them, wrong or right? (10/23/2010 9:18:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP I know you're not suggesting people become TPE on the first date, sign over the title to their house and so on. It takes time. And sufficient compatibility is part of what's needed for them to stay in a relationship long enough for it to evolve. You yourself said it took many years in your case. You're right... I wasn't suggesting that. I don't think I ever think that's a great idea. I'm all about "Do the job right one brick at a time" I was only giving the TPE option as the logical alternative to D/s. My real point is that someone, somewhere, needs to be definitively responsible or else trouble is likely to occur.

DesFIP -> RE: Limits and respecting of them, wrong or right? (10/23/2010 12:57:15 PM)
Absolutely. But part of being responsible is keeping your word. So when you state you are monogamous, it isn't a good idea to wait until right after you've collared someone to say "I lied, but now that I own you, I can and will do what I told you I wouldn't". Because that's not smart or likely to allow you to keep the person.

Andalusite -> RE: Limits and respecting of them, wrong or right? (10/23/2010 1:05:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 I was only giving the TPE option as the logical alternative to D/s. My real point is that someone, somewhere, needs to be definitively responsible or else trouble is likely to occur. I disagree, I've been in a couple of egalitarian kinky relationships with no definite authority on either side, and we didn't have trouble or power struggles. I submit to or dominate someone because I react that way to that individual, so when that happens, there have rarely been power struggles either. To the OP, the one time that it was a problem, the person who I felt submissive toward wasn't offering a relationship on terms that were healthy or good for me. I felt he was nagging me to change my boundaries, and it made me feel I couldn't trust him. As others have said, it was pretty much a matter of incompatibility.

RavenMuse -> RE: Limits and respecting of them, wrong or right? (10/23/2010 6:00:46 PM)
Hmmmm First time My girl and I met properly was when she came over for a coffee to talk about maybe becoming a playpartner..... the chemistry kicked in, I Owned her ass before We'd drunk that first coffee and she's still here three years later having basically moved in that day... TPE 24/7 M/s from day one... takes a lot of trust and a great deal of belief in the fact that said trust is well placed, it might not be the 'normal' way, or the recommended way... but it isn't an automatic fail either. We didn't even discuss limits in depth, just hit the basics of what I offered... part of that was that whilst I WILL hurt her, I do My damnedest not to HARM her.... she didn't need limits because that, if it where true ment I wasn't prepaired to take her anywhere I didn't believe she was capable of going without taking harm. HOWEVER (Ooooh look, I used capitals, must be a big important word!) That is M/s and even I, when/if I take on a girl under D/s consider limits to be something negotiated and if something of agreed as off limits then it is off limits... that isn't something you push, that means it is a no go area. If she needs to limit something I really want... then hasta la vista, We ain't compatible and good luck in your search... thank you and goodnight!

jujubeeMB -> RE: Limits and respecting of them, wrong or right? (10/23/2010 9:10:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 You go TPE (or whatever you want to call it) in which case limit management and safety (or lack thereof) is provided by the master. Either trust him to do that responsibly or find a new master. ... OR ... You go D/s in which case you protect your own limits and provide for your own safety. Either do it responsibly or else stop playing the game. I actually agree with this in a general sense, though it's not something that I've thought through thoroughly before (ok, how cool is it that I managed to put four "th-ough" words into one sentence? Sorry, major language dork moment [:D]). Anyway. Obviously someone has to be responsible for the sub's limits and safety, and it's either going to be the one in charge or the one submitting. Honestly, I don't think that the s-type really has much choice which person is going to be in charge of limits, after the initial screening period - most of us are either designed to be completely influenced or designed to resist influence that we don't like. I am personally a mixture of both, but my ability to resist is completely subsumed by Dominant energy if that energy is forceful enough, and especially if it's carried out over a length of time. So it's really hard to say that I'm in charge of my limits, because I don't feel like I am, in the long run. And I feel like you can't possibly know in advance if a Dom is just figuring out what your genuine boundaries are or figuring out how to wear you down over time. So since most Doms tend to do one or the other in the initial stages of a relationship, what do you suggest to subs as a way to tell the difference?

Shadow-tiger -> RE: Limits and respecting of them, wrong or right? (10/23/2010 9:59:42 PM)
After thinking about the subject of limits the past month or so, seeing thread upon thread on it I have to wonder. Why not simply ask why something is a limit? Hard, soft, whichever. Not because I necessarily think it leads to wanting to push a limit. To me, if I can understand what drives someone to have a limit then I can understand them better, which means I can lead, and control that person better. If things get to a point where she's willing to have a limit pushed then I trust she'll let me know. Likely out of a sense of wanting to please me perhaps, or because she just feels comfortable with trying it.

TotalDiscipline -> RE: Limits and respecting of them, wrong or right? (10/24/2010 1:11:40 AM)
I think one of the problems is the use of "hard"and "soft" combined with limits. It is either a limit or not. Using hard or soft makes it unclear. If my girl...calls it a soft limit ( and she knows how I think about those word) it does not excist.

subkatslut -> RE: Limits and respecting of them, wrong or right? (10/24/2010 4:02:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TotalDiscipline I think one of the problems is the use of "hard"and "soft" combined with limits. It is either a limit or not. Using hard or soft makes it unclear. I am very much a newbie so forgive me if this sounds stupid but I don't see what is so unclear about it. For me there are things I know I simply don't want pushed. I am also very capable, as a previous poster mentioned, able to explain my reasons behind it though with one or two it may also be a preference thing. I simply have no desire and don't foresee that in the future changing. I see hard limits as being ways to convey look if any of these are important to you then I'm not the person for you. OTOH I see soft limits as things I am not prepared to push with someone new where a certain amount of trust isn't developed enough for. Or maybe something that is more difficult for me personally and prior to submitting in that manner I'd like to be 100% surer on that relationship before going down that road with them. In otherwords not something I want to do right out of the gate. Not because I'm not willing to submit but because there are 1 or 2 things that for me I only want to do with the right person. Early on it's still a feeling out phase usually. At least that's my take and I think once you've moved past that point and the relationship is surer and trust has been established to a greater degree soft limits can then be discarded as limits per se. Though some may indeed need a little help by being pushed, others may simply be enabled with the trust that's been established.

TotalDiscipline -> RE: Limits and respecting of them, wrong or right? (10/24/2010 4:13:28 AM)
Doesn't a limit mean...you don't do it..wether called soft or hard? I understand..time is a factor that might change that....but...till then..it is a limit..no matter ..soft or hard.. why make things so complex [:D] ps I have even seen "hard" limits fade away, even my own. Although some limits might never go away.

thishereboi -> RE: Limits and respecting of them, wrong or right? (10/24/2010 5:43:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TotalDiscipline Doesn't a limit mean...you don't do it..wether called soft or hard? I understand..time is a factor that might change that....but...till then..it is a limit..no matter ..soft or hard.. why make things so complex [:D] ps I have even seen "hard" limits fade away, even my own. Although some limits might never go away. Actually, the way I have always understood it. A hard limit is something I will never, under any circumstances, agree to. Anything to do with a minor is a hard limit. Having body parts removed is a hard limit. Doing anything illegal is a hard limit. Those will never change, no matter how close we get. Soft limits on the other hand are things I won't do right now, but that may change in the future. I used to have single tails as a limit. Now depending on the top, I would be willing to play with one. The most important part of all this is making sure you and the person you are considering a relationship with agree on what limits mean. At that point it really doesn't matter what others think.

leadership527 -> RE: Limits and respecting of them, wrong or right? (10/24/2010 9:10:12 AM)
But Juju... I could say something similar... In general, I have a pretty decent ability to avoid being eaten. But I notice that when I slather myself with seal blubber and jump into the water with great white sharks, my ability to remain not-food dramatically decreases... What's a swimmer to do? I mean seriously. If you enter into a risky situation and you know you cannot protect yourself once there.... well.... In the end, how you are wired or not is totally irrelevant to the end result of getting hurt or not. What I would say to you or any sub is that you either have enough ability to judge people and you are patient enough to get it right or else you suffer the damage of getting it wrong. Either choice is valid... especially if you've looked at the potential damage and decided it's survivable. But those are kind of the two choices. Think or thwim. What I would suggest is being clear about what sort of relationship you're in. If it's D/s, or T/b, then I'd say that the way a "dom figures out what the legitimate boundaries are" is by asking. I'd expect the sub to answer. If the answer is "no", then fine. If he asks again, and the answer is still "no", then still fine. But sneaking over the border into M/s land without the dom in question choosing to accept that responsibility and without the sub assessing that he is genuinely capable of that is... well... it's a lot like jumping out of an airplane and then wondering if you remembered the parachute. At least between Carol and I, I fully understand that she will not say "no"... pretty much no matter what I ask. That means that I need to be on the "no" ball on her behalf. Between us, that's crystal clear. Allowing that situation to be muddy seems disastrous to me. I'd probably ask a lot of things of her that I shouldn't if I had it in my head that "It will be OK. If I ask something truly dumb, she'll stop me."

sweetsub1957 -> RE: Limits and respecting of them, wrong or right? (10/24/2010 10:48:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi Actually, the way I have always understood it. A hard limit is something I will never, under any circumstances, agree to. Anything to do with a minor is a hard limit. Having body parts removed is a hard limit. Doing anything illegal is a hard limit. Those will never change, no matter how close we get. Soft limits on the other hand are things I won't do right now, but that may change in the future. I used to have single tails as a limit. Now depending on the top, I would be willing to play with one. The most important part of all this is making sure you and the person you are considering a relationship with agree on what limits mean. At that point it really doesn't matter what others think. This is how I see it too. ~sweetsub~

Andalusite -> RE: Limits and respecting of them, wrong or right? (10/24/2010 6:52:58 PM)
I dislike the "limits" terminology. If I am in a D/s or M/s relationship as a submissive or slave, I need to trust that my partner isn't going to deliberately do serious harm to me physically or emotionally, and that they have common sense. I don't have a "limit" on sex/BDSM play with children or having body parts lopped off - I wouldn't date someone who wanted me to do those things, even if they were willing to refrain/abide by my "limits." Likewise, someone who wanted an open relationship would just be incompatible with me period, rather than my agreeing to date him as long as he agreed to be monogamous. I don't want to feel like I constantly have to say no and defend myself. If I am scared or uncomfortable about an activity, I want to brainstorm with him on how to get to what he wants from me, or if it's a matter of needing more time/trust emotional commitment, getting there before he expects it of me. In general, almost any activity or toy can be used in a way that would be unbearable, or that I could enjoy, it depends on how warmed up I am, the mindset I'm in, how he goes about it, how hard he does it, etc. On the flip side, dating a submissive with a laundry list of "thou shalt nots" feels a bit restrictive to me. I want a partner who is game to try most things - if there are a couple of touchy spots, fine, if they aren't very masochistic but react the way I like to light pain, it's all good. I don't want a heavy dose of scripting though, and I'd have a hard time thinking of someone as submissive if they weren't willing to make some effort to please me and adapt to me. I certainly wouldn't steamroller over their boundaries, but I would question our compatibility.

SpiritedRadiance -> RE: Limits and respecting of them, wrong or right? (10/25/2010 2:17:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Andalusite If I am in a D/s or M/s relationship as a submissive or slave, I need to trust that my partner isn't going to deliberately do serious harm to me physically or emotionally, and that they have common sense. And I used to believe that too, then I met my ex....Some men will do whatever it takes to maintain an Ms dynamic, harmed be damned. Its why I will never and I have a hard limit of being someones slave. As for explaining limits a poster previously mentioned, Ive found even if I explain the harm that will come to me by for example putting me in a cage, it drives some sadists do try to do just that to see If im being honest. Explaining that it makes me have a panic attack that i will do what ever necessary to get out of broken bones be damned, seems to be amusing to some people. The same with other limitations. They dont believe that irreparable harm can come from putting someone in a cage, or requesting they be poly. They think its a made up reason to not have to do x y or z for their partner.

Shadow-tiger -> RE: Limits and respecting of them, wrong or right? (10/25/2010 4:49:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpiritedRadiance Explaining that it makes me have a panic attack that i will do what ever necessary to get out of broken bones be damned, seems to be amusing to some people. The same with other limitations. They dont believe that irreparable harm can come from putting someone in a cage, or requesting they be poly. They think its a made up reason to not have to do x y or z for their partner. You know what, I tend to see this as a good indicator that maybe you shouldn't get too involved with that person if they're going to find amusement in doing you real harm. Better to share then be warned than not share and be caught unaware.

SpiritedRadiance -> RE: Limits and respecting of them, wrong or right? (10/25/2010 11:06:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Shadow-tiger You know what, I tend to see this as a good indicator that maybe you shouldn't get too involved with that person if they're going to find amusement in doing you real harm. Better to share then be warned than not share and be caught unaware. While I know to avoid those people, Ive encountered this mentality in more then just online situations, even people Ive met at munches feel the need, or get enjoyment out of pushing a sub as far as she can go because they believe in their very small pea brained minds that they know better then their partner.

Andalusite -> RE: Limits and respecting of them, wrong or right? (10/27/2010 6:19:02 PM)
I agree with Shadow-Tiger that in that situation, I would see it as being less a problem with the activity, and more that a man who didn't care about my emotional or physical well-being isn't someone I want to entrust my safety to. Personally, I'm fine with cages, but I would not be comfortable with someone who had that attitude/frame of mind. This applies whether I meet them in person or online.

anniezz338 -> RE: Limits and respecting of them, wrong or right? (10/27/2010 9:49:34 PM)
I feel limits are part of where the compatibility comes in. Limits can and do change with time, but if someone I'm just getting to know if consistantly staying on topic of a limit I'm not ready to push yet, then it's not going to work. It's kinda like the cat people for cat people and dog people for dog people. If our limits, interests, kinks, bends...whatever you want to call it...do not blend, at least for the most part, it would be too much struggling for me. Just not a match.

subsfaith -> RE: Limits and respecting of them, wrong or right? (10/30/2010 2:00:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subpilotguy Am I wrong or right ? For the last few months I've been chatting with someone that was Dominant, and things moved slowly along towards a real meeting discussion. Discussions involved interest, and limits or concerns. My limit was to involve myself by not others and this was accepted by him. Several times he probed the topic and pushed for more involvement in different ways. I consistently said no respectfully. I realize there has to be some testing of the edges, but it concerned me that the limit was not respected. My concern is how can I feel safe, if this small issue is not something I feel safe with. How has this person disrespected your limits? By talking about it? It sounds like you are being a little precious here. So the problem is he said he was okay with your limit when his truth is a little different. He wants others, but he said different to get to know you better. Now I have said okay to stuff I wasn't sure about in order to see how things go... not a shooting offense as far as I know. But now you are aware there is an issue you should be dealing with the issue rather than looking for validation from others. Safe? What do you mean by safe? Physically, mentally, emotionally? If you feel a threat, then perhaps the decision to walk away will be a route for you. Or is this fear of the unknown driving this? Are you right or wrong? Well it doesn't really matter. This situation isn't about being right or wrong, it is about being in a mess and how you will sort it out.

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