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ORIGINAL: hertz

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Prayer does not show action by a supernatural entity, it is action by the person praying. Proof of god requires identifiable action by god. Just as my moving a pencil shows action by me.

If proof of God requires identifiable action by God, then God exists. God created the Heavens and the Earth. The movement of a pencil may, or may not, show action by you -  I still think you are allowing the question of your existence rather more latitude than you are allowing for the existence of God.

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ORIGINAL: hertz
PS Did I say I am an atheist? I'll just say it again - I am an atheist.

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ORIGINAL: hertz
I may have expressed myself badly. The point isn't the preservation of nature. The point is science can count the Deer, dissect and name its parts, weigh it and measure it, make an account of its chemical composition, read its DNA, describe its appearance and scent and so on, and in so doing, still completely miss the point. As you yourself did, if I might venture so bold.

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ORIGINAL: nephandi

You call religious people naive, do not be naive yourself, look at the history of science, look at interviews with some of the currently most acclaimed people in the field who say that when they begun their research, no matter how much proof they showed for their theories they where ignored or buried in the back of publications, scientists are no more happy than other to lose fame and power, and few want their theories to be proven wrong, it takes allot of time for a theory to be front page news, especially if is controversial.

There are however evidence that huge, complex formations have appeared in a few minutes, with the crops being folded in ways which is impossible to make it do with any known method.

Supernatural is just a word, it is a word to point at something that we as of yet do not know how fit in nature. I think that scientific method as it advances will be able to fit most phenomena into the laws of nature.

Only if you bury your head in the sand and do not look at the evidence that are out there.

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

Show me a single scintilla of evidence that god had anything to do with creating anything physical. If you cannot then you cannot expect that claim to be believed.

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I can easily demonstrate my ability to affect the physical world (these posts are a fine example) which demonstrates my existence. To deny the evidence of your senses is to venture into solipsism which is useless.

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ORIGINAL: hertz
PS Did I say I am an atheist? I'll just say it again - I am an atheist.

Would you explain what being a "practicing occultist" means? Are you under the impression that you have some sort of magic powers?

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ORIGINAL: nephandi
Religion says the reason is supernatural, while science have another explanation, however the fact remains that religion very often have come up with useful and true interpretations on how the world works which have later been verified. Just look at the ancient world for example, how much knowledge was discovered by Egyptians, Greeks and Romans in the form of their religion which is still considered true to this day.

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ORIGINAL: GotSteel

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ORIGINAL: hertz
I may have expressed myself badly. The point isn't the preservation of nature. The point is science can count the Deer, dissect and name its parts, weigh it and measure it, make an account of its chemical composition, read its DNA, describe its appearance and scent and so on, and in so doing, still completely miss the point. As you yourself did, if I might venture so bold.

We certainly aren't on the same page and I have a couple of questions that hopefully will help me figure out where you're coming from but I think you may have been missing something key about what I've been saying as well. I'm wondering if part of the problem stems from the way you talk about science. You've been attributing attributes to science which it doesn't actually posses, science can't count and science doesn't see and so on. I hope that's just figurative language but why are you using it? Why are you personifying science? Science isn't some sort of deity, I'm not talking about building some sort of automaton to make moral decisions for us.

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All I'm saying is that when you make a decision (moral or otherwise) having as accurate an understanding of reality as possible is more likely to lead to a desirable result than making a decision which involves multiple factors which you are demonstrably wrong about or willfully ignorant of.

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ORIGINAL: hertz
I think there may be a confusion here. I am 100% atheist. No occultism for me!

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But atheism has become a pseudo-religion for many people, tweakabelle. They have their own rituals and priesthood, their own bigoted belief that they, and they alone are the 'chosen ones' who have been given access to some sort of truth about the world. I absolutely agree with you that extremist religion-heads need to be avoided. But atheism has more than its fair share of idiocy as well.

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

If you comments were directed were directed at Scientism, rather than atheism, i suspect we agree thoroughly. And i believe your comments accurately refer to Scientism rather than atheism. I would hope that you agree the above quote doesn't not apply to agnosticism or freethinking, which is the position i happen to espouse.

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My understanding is that atheism is the belief that there is no God. No more and no less. Agnosticism generally refers to the view that the case for the existence of a deity is unproven.

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So, my view is atheism is not the pseudo-religion you describe - Scientism is. I do hope we can agree on that.

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
My understanding is that atheism is the belief that there is no God. No more and no less. Agnosticism generally refers to the view that the case for the existence of a deity is unproven.

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ORIGINAL: hertz
I am not asking you to prove to me that you exist - I already know you do not.

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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But atheism has become a pseudo-religion for many people, tweakabelle. They have their own rituals and priesthood, their own bigoted belief that they, and they alone are the 'chosen ones' who have been given access to some sort of truth about the world. I absolutely agree with you that extremist religion-heads need to be avoided. But atheism has more than its fair share of idiocy as well.

If you comments were directed were directed at Scientism, rather than atheism, i suspect we agree thoroughly. And i believe your comments accurately refer to Scientism rather than atheism. I would hope that you agree the above quote doesn't not apply to agnosticism or freethinking, which is the position i happen to espouse.

My understanding is that atheism is the belief that there is no God. No more and no less. Agnosticism generally refers to the view that the case for the existence of a deity is unproven.

The kind of dogmatic approach that you refer to is quite contrary to the principles of basic Science, which is a research methodology that generates verifiable working hypotheses. Dawkins is a good example of someone who takes this methodology as the one and only approach to the production of truths. Properly speaking, science has no concept of truth, or to put that slightly differently, regards any truth proposition as provisional, even arbirtrary.

My understanding of the philosophy of science tells me that embellishing a methodology that has no concept of truth into a truth production ideology, as Dawkins does, is simply shoddy science. For example, Dawkins continually claims that evolution is a "fact", a position that is insupportable scientifically. Evolution is, in my view, far and away the most credible explanation we have for the world around us. But it is not and never will be a truth. Science never has and never will produce 'truth'. It is beyond the limits of science to do so. It is, in my view, inappropriate for scientists to make such claims and they forego the mantle and authority of science as soon as they do.

So, my view is atheism is not the pseudo-religion you describe - Scientism is. I do hope we can agree on that.

Now onto something far more important: How can i get rid of that hideous vanilla icon? Can some one please help me?

Love to all

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ORIGINAL: GotSteel

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ORIGINAL: hertz
I am not asking you to prove to me that you exist - I already know you do not.

Um what?

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ORIGINAL: hertz
I believe the universe was created .20 seconds ago and I am the only being in it. Everything I am experiencing is a false memory created at the same time as myself and the universe. Even down to this post, and you reading it.