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RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism - 11/4/2010 2:06:42 PM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
Status: offline 		Science has a long and undignified history of being utterly wrong about everything. You can't say that for Religion.

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism - 11/4/2010 2:13:18 PM   
hertz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

The examples in your post seem largely about advocating for the preservation of nature. If you were to check the facts and figures you might notice that the groups at least in my country advocating that decisions be made according to religious texts aren't the ones looking to preserve nature. How is it in your country?


I may have expressed myself badly. The point isn't the preservation of nature. The point is science can count the Deer, dissect and name its parts, weigh it and measure it, make an account of its chemical composition, read its DNA, describe its appearance and scent and so on, and in so doing, still completely miss the point. As you yourself did, if I might venture so bold.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz
Personally, I am suspicious that 'careful measured facts and figures' almost always concern stuff I am not that interested in.

What is this even supposed to mean? It almost sounds like your talking about a conspiracy theory.

I think that's what you want to hear.



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RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism - 11/4/2010 2:16:18 PM   
lickenforyou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

Science has a long and undignified history of being utterly wrong about everything. You can't say that for Religion.


That is such an uninformed statement that I can't take it seriously. I hope you're joking.

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RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism - 11/4/2010 2:18:47 PM   
lickenforyou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou
But, religions have not been proven wrong because they make claims that cannot be tested.

I have to disagree with this, religions have made testable claims and have been shown to be terribly wrong. This generally just leads to attacks on science and progressively convoluted reinterpretations of the claims to make them less testable.


I can't argue with generalities. Please cite an example of this.

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RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism - 11/4/2010 2:21:36 PM   
hertz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou

quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

Science has a long and undignified history of being utterly wrong about everything. You can't say that for Religion.


That is such an uninformed statement that I can't take it seriously. I hope you're joking.



If uninformed = true, then it is uninformed. Funny, but uninformed.

(in reply to lickenforyou)
Profile   Post #: 145
RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism - 11/4/2010 8:36:02 PM   
nephandi


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quote:

Religion does not answer the questions of "is there a soul" or "is there an after life" with any proof what so ever.


That depends on what sort of proof you are looking for, if you are looking for proof in the line of yes this is the composition of the soul and it weigh so and so much, then no, religion is unlikely to provide that sort of proof, however it can provide personal proof, as well as with questions such as this, often it is not the proof and the final answer which is the point, it is searching for that answer which leads to personal development.

quote:

And, of course science changes when it is PROVED wrong.


Eventually yes, though if you look at the history of science it takes it's good time accepting any paradigm change. Like the doctors who first, in the West as cleanliness was more common in other parts of the world, made the connection that washing one's hands improved patients chances of survival. They had allot of proof and data to prove their claim, but they where still ridiculed for a long time before mainstream science accepted the evidence and changed it's paradigm and history is full of that.

That being said science and the mainstream scientific paradigm is two different things. Science is just a method of gathering information, it have no ideology, it do not really have anything to change, it is just a process and a method for learning, and a very useful method at that, what you seam to speak about when you say science is the facts that the method of science have found out, and the scientific community that gather those facts, the scientific paradigm if you will, and yes that changes, but often kicking and screaming.

quote:

It seems to me that most religions are basically self help groups. And, I stated that they were/are necessary. Studies have shown that religous people, in general, are more content than non religous people. Youe see, that's science PROVING that religion is useful. What it doesn't prove, however, is that religion is right about the supernatural.


Often religion do provide self help and ways for people to develop themselves, and if that is the only value you see in religion then that is fine with me. I however think that  there is more to this world than just matter and what we can measure and quantify. I think it is good that science is used to look at religion, the more information one gather the better. I however do not think science's inability as of yet to prove the existence of the supernatural mean that it do not exist.

quote:

If you are happy in your life with answers based on belief that is fine, and I wish you well.


I wish you well to.

quote:

But, religions have not been proven wrong because they make claims that cannot be tested.


That a claim can not be tested with current scientific methods do not mean it is wrong, it simply mean it can not be tested by that method for gathering information.

Have a great day.


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to lickenforyou)
Profile   Post #: 146
RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism - 11/4/2010 8:44:26 PM   
nephandi


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[quoteI have to disagree with this, religions have made testable claims and have been shown to be terribly wrong. This generally just leads to attacks on science and progressively convoluted reinterpretations of the claims to make them less testable. ][/quote]

Yes there are religions claims which has been proven wrong, I am not saying absolutely every religions claim is true. I am however saying that dismissing something as false just because science can not currently prove or disprove it do not work. Also many of the things which have been proven wrong are not really a part of the religion in question, but have later been added as a means for religions leaders to get power or as an old interpretations of religions works which later turns out to not hold water. The Bible for example, in reference to the picture you posted never claim that the Earth is flat, that is just an interpretation done by people who was thinking, ah the Bible speaks of planes of existence, that mean those planes have to be flat right.

Now I am not saying this is always the case, sometimes base dogma is proven wrong, and it is a shame when people do not sit down and rethink when such information show up, and often instead attack the people who made the discovery. However that do nto disprove religion, it just proves that human beings do not like to have their world views challenged.

I wish you well.


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism - 11/5/2010 1:16:03 AM   
lickenforyou


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quote:

Often religion do provide self help and ways for people to develop themselves, and if that is the only value you see in religion then that is fine with me. I however think that there is more to this world than just matter and what we can measure and quantify. I think it is good that science is used to look at religion, the more information one gather the better. I however do not think science's inability as of yet to prove the existence of the supernatural mean that it do not exist.


You can think that there is more to the world than matter. And, I will grant you that there may be. But, to believe there's a supernatural force because of stories that have been passed along by primitive people, from thousands of years ago, seems illogical.

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RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism - 11/5/2010 2:29:36 AM   
nephandi


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quote:

You can think that there is more to the world than matter. And, I will grant you that there may be. But, to believe there's a supernatural force because of stories that have been passed along by primitive people, from thousands of years ago, seems illogical.


Off course it would be completely illogical to just believe and old tale. What you forget is that most religious people, myself included have had experiences which prove for us that there is something supernatural. Now thees experiences can usually not be proven in a laboratory, and most Atheists would just dismiss them as delusions, misunderstandings and the like, it seams a bit strange to me through to think a majority of the world population have something wrong in their heads because they rapport experiences which do not fit with ones own world view, however be that as it may, this comment is not made to prove the reality of such religious experiences, it is made to show that real or imaginary there is more reasons than just old tales for religious people's belief, and basing a world view on personal experiences are not illogical.

I wish you well.


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


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RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism - 11/5/2010 6:49:48 AM   
GotSteel


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Status: offline 		If you're just looking for an example it would be that the earth is flat and sits immovable upon a pillar as alluded to by my picture of ships falling off the edge of the earth.



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RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism - 11/5/2010 7:34:04 AM   
GotSteel


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Status: offline 		I understand that you have an internal feeling I don't think anyone is questioning or forgetting that this happens, it's been documented via functional MRI. Where the just believing old tales comes in is when you make the leap from that internal feeling to an external supernatural source as the cause. 

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RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism - 11/5/2010 12:00:47 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nephandi

Off course it would be completely illogical to just believe and old tale. What you forget is that most religious people, myself included have had experiences which prove for us that there is something supernatural.


Self-delusion is not proof of anything

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RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism - 11/5/2010 3:38:47 PM   
nephandi


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It is far more than a feeling, as a practicing occultist I see real life effects on the world around me, now can science perhaps explain those effects one day, perhaps however the effects are there. Just dismissing every experience people have which do not fir your world view as imagination as just as arrogant as when someone wrapped up in religions dogma completely ignores all new information which do not support what they think is the truth.

I wish you well.


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism - 11/5/2010 4:17:00 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nephandi

Greetings

It is far more than a feeling, as a practicing occultist I see real life effects on the world around me, now can science perhaps explain those effects one day, perhaps however the effects are there. Just dismissing every experience people have which do not fir your world view as imagination as just as arrogant as when someone wrapped up in religions dogma completely ignores all new information which do not support what they think is the truth.

I wish you well.



Except that those "effects" have been debunked and shown to be nothing more than easily explainable real world phenomena. Its not arrogance, its science.

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Hear the lark
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gone to ground.

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RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism - 11/5/2010 4:24:40 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

Science has a long and undignified history of being utterly wrong about everything. You can't say that for Religion.

You can't?

You're saying the universe was made in 7 literal days, pi = 3, showing sheep differently painted sticks can effect their offsprings coat patterns or all the rest of the absolutely positively wrong stuff religions have said over the centuries.

What can be said is science improves its answers over time and religion is simply always wrong on all counts.

(in reply to hertz)
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RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism - 11/5/2010 4:51:32 PM   
SorceressJ


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz
Science has a long and undignified history of being utterly wrong about everything. You can't say that for Religion.

You can't?

You're saying the universe was made in 7 literal days, pi = 3, showing sheep differently painted sticks can effect their offsprings coat patterns or all the rest of the absolutely positively wrong stuff religions have said over the centuries.

What can be said is science improves its answers over time and religion is simply always wrong on all counts.


-Thank you.-

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RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism - 11/5/2010 7:04:45 PM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
Haven't we been here before?

Yep last week prolly.

Let the hardliners think what they want, we all know the limitations of both religion and science.

Also the argument constantly framed as science versus religion assumes that modern day science has any opinion on religion. We should have moved on from this by now. Once it was established that certain religious facts were fiction the ground shifted to more unanswerable questions that science was never intended to visit. You can prove that what is written in a religious text is fiction, this is easy. You can't prove or disprove an omnipresent being, so why bother? Science is the wrong tool for this, imagination is a better tool. Hard-line atheists generally have no imagination so they are fucked in the first place. In science you need imagination to think of questions that warrant an answer and to think of ways such questions can be answered. Nobody should waste their time with impossible questions, it's pointless.

My heaven is the non existence of heaven. If I find there is a heaven I'll be very depressed because then it will be apparent that it is unending. No human experience should last an eternity (not even paradise) because that will get boring very quickly. Ever seen that film 'Ground hog day' that is the nightmare reality of heaven.


< Message edited by FullCircle -- 11/5/2010 7:28:29 PM >

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RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism - 11/6/2010 3:28:45 AM   
hertz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

Science has a long and undignified history of being utterly wrong about everything. You can't say that for Religion.

You can't?

You're saying the universe was made in 7 literal days, pi = 3, showing sheep differently painted sticks can effect their offsprings coat patterns or all the rest of the absolutely positively wrong stuff religions have said over the centuries.

What can be said is science improves its answers over time and religion is simply always wrong on all counts.


Religion doesn't say the universe was made in three literal days. Some of the people who believe in it do. Religion does not say pi = 3, unless my reading of the Qu'ran is very flawed. I'm not sure about the sticks thing - can you suggest which verses in the bible I should be looking for? I've a funny feeling the sticks thing might be an example of science getting it wrong. Someone looked at the evidence, came up with a hypothesis, and guess what? That's right! Wrong!

What can be said about science is that it is very good at doing science. 'Science improves its answers over time' is pretty much exactly what I said - 'Science has a long and undignified history of being wrong about everything'.

PS Did I say I am an atheist? I'll just say it again - I am an atheist.

< Message edited by hertz -- 11/6/2010 3:30:40 AM >

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RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism - 11/6/2010 5:00:54 AM   
nephandi


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quote:

Except that those "effects" have been debunked and shown to be nothing more than easily explainable real world phenomena. Its not arrogance, its science.


Some people's claims have been debunked, that do not mean every phenomena is false, that is like saying I found one rotten apple so all apples must be rotten. There are also many times where scientific investigation of a phenomena have come up inconclusive, as in science can not explain it, and even cases where the phenomena have been put to the test and worked, and that is science to.

I wish you well


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


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Profile   Post #: 159
RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism - 11/6/2010 5:12:03 AM   
nephandi


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quote:

You're saying the universe was made in 7 literal days, pi = 3, showing sheep differently painted sticks can effect their offsprings coat patterns or all the rest of the absolutely positively wrong stuff religions have said over the centuries.


I am not a Christian, however the original wording in the Bible is that creation happened over 7 cycles, most mainstream Christianity take this to mean seven actual days, but it might really be any length of time. There is nothing in the Bible that says that both Christianity and science can not be right at the same time, with evolution having taken place but guided by a divine will. Often religion is not the thing which is in the wrong, but people's interpretation of that religion.

quote:

What can be said is science improves its answers over time and religion is simply always wrong on all counts.


So religion is always wrong, on all accounts? I think you need to read a bit more about religion. Is religion often wrong, yes any system to gain knowledge about the world is at times wrong, but there are allot of times religion have been right and science have later had to agree with religion, however what differ between the two are the explanation as to why something is the way it is. Religion says the reason is supernatural, while science have another explanation, however the fact remains that religion very often have come up with useful and true interpretations on how the world works which have later been verified. Just look at the ancient world for example, how much knowledge was discovered by Egyptians, Greeks and Romans in the form of their religion which is still considered true to this day.

I wish you well.


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to DomKen)
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