the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Vann Woodward) (Full Version)

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PatrickG38 -> the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Vann Woodward) (10/26/2010 10:26:40 AM)

The election of Barack Obama has made certain fault lines in our country appear more vividly and while it is not 1859 by any means, it appears that there is a large region of the country that is committed to ignorant reactions when confronted with the case of the first black president. Many contemporary historians have argued the uniqueness of the South has been fading with the region’s mass commercialization, the embrace of consumer culture by the region and the proliferation of national media. After all, a strip mall in South Carolina bears an uncanny resemblance to one in a Northern suburb. The election of Barack Obama has made clear that regionalism is alive and the South remains distinctive in an exceedingly negative way. Indeed, absent the South, the United States would be a far more educated, progressive and humane country. While this appraisal seems harsh, it is electorally inescapable. Indeed, absent the large African-American population, the region would appear even more reactionary in its politics.


The front page of the New York Times almost a year ago ran a fascinating article on how David Vitter, of DC Madame fame, is the favorite in his race for re-election because his opponents were supporters of Barack Obama, http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/11/us/11vitter.html?_r=1&ref=politics as well as an equally relevant article on Congressman Joe Wilson (R-SC) and the lack of universal condemnation in his district, http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/11/us/politics/11wilson.html?ref=politics. These stories coupled with the simply shocking poll results that a majority of Southerners (53%) don’t accept that President Obama was born in the United States, indicate a region addicted to ignorance and a threat to the future of democratic governance in America. The advertisements in support of Senator Vitter actually have a picture of a hippie on them, that nearly extinct species that in large numbers abandoned their youthful anti-establishment views and embraced cocaine, Wall Street and uber-capitalism. Because the South is the focal point of the anti-Obama rhetoric, it becomes impossible to discount the role of race in what most often appears to be unthinking criticism. Some principled conservatives might argue that much of the opposition is simply a philosophically consistent dedication to decentralized government and a healthy fear of powerful government and growing deficits.


The deficit argument seems patent nonsense. The Southern conservatives did not become the least bit overheated over Reagan’s record deficit spending or George W. Bush’s reckless fiscal policy that turned surpluses into record deficits (most of the deficits now allegedly animating these tea-bag morons, are a direct legacy of President Bush). The deficit is clearly cover for other motivations. As far as a small government philosophy providing principled opposition to Federal expansion, that falls apart under historical analysis. Putting aside the irony that the two regions of the country most dependent on Federal largess are the most opposed to the ‘government,’ we must ask how the South came to be so opposed to Federal powers. At virtually every step, Southern opposition to Federal powers was related to retaining a system of white superiority. Historian William W. Freehling has established fairly conclusively that even the nullification controversy regarding the Federal Tariff (supported by Calhoun originally) was a controversy about slavery. Indeed, when the Federal Government’s power could be brought to bear in favor of white supremacy, as with the Fugitive Slave law of 1850, Southerners objected little to the large expansion of Federal power.


Southern politicians objected little to the radical expansion of federal control over individual lives brought about by Prohibition. Yet, some of the exact same southern politicians pled States Rights while opposing woman suffrage through the 19th Amendment, as they were fearful that Federal involvement in voting rights would interfere with their disenfranchisement of African-Americans. Southern fears of big government waned again during the New Deal as long as the deal would not include backs (this is why domestic workers were not covered by Social Security initially).


Southern resistance to big government waxed after Brown v. Board of Education because this decision again represented a threat to the Southern system of white supremacy. This resistance grew as the federal government increased efforts to enfranchise African-Americans. Of course, the South rarely objected to increased federal spending on defense and arms as that did not implicate the system of white supremacy and provided jobs and economic activity.


While the racial problem is not exclusive to the South, the region retains a distinctiveness as revealed by the inexplicable agitation following President Obama’s election. You can disagree with the President’s policies, but to fail to acknowledge his legitimacy (the most decisive election since Reagan’s second term), his grace, class and fundamental decency reveals a deeper cultural pathology. He might be wrong on particular policies, but to view him as a threat to America is a reflection of the insecurity of the protesters confronted with a President who finally doesn’t look like them. The question is how does the rest of the nation deal with a region still so out of synch with American values.






Hillwilliam -> RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Vann Woodward) (10/26/2010 10:58:25 AM)

Spoken like someone who has never been south of Philadelphia.

Personally, I have been from Key West to Anchorage, Caribou ME to Phoenix and I have seen a LOT more overt racist behavior in the northern part of the country (Miami being the exception because everyone hates everyone there).




tazzygirl -> RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Vann Woodward) (10/26/2010 11:23:03 AM)

quote:

After all, a strip mall in South Carolina bears an uncanny resemblance to one in a Northern suburb.


What does this have to do with the OP? Its rather silly to imply that because two strip malls look alike that the "uniqueness" of the south is disappearing.

I have to echo Williams post. I have lived in the south most of my life, but have moved to california, missouri, ohio and pa. i grew up in the military in NJ.

quote:

Indeed, absent the South, the United States would be a far more educated, progressive and humane country.


Define the region you consider the "South"

quote:

These stories coupled with the simply shocking poll results that a majority of Southerners (53%) don’t accept that President Obama was born in the United States, indicate a region addicted to ignorance and a threat to the future of democratic governance in America.


Polls can be skewed to give the results desired... or didnt you know that. The source of the poll, if you please. The results i have found were 2009 polls. Nothing current gives close to those numbers.





PatrickG38 -> RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Vann Woodward) (10/26/2010 12:55:07 PM)

Yes, the polls are a year old. Are you asserting that cultural or political attitudes in the country have dramatically changed since last year?




PatrickG38 -> RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Vann Woodward) (10/26/2010 12:56:28 PM)

I, like most historians, define the South as the the former slaveholding states as of 1861, i.e soouth of the Mason-Dixon line and west to the cotton areas of Texas.




Moonhead -> RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Vann Woodward) (10/26/2010 1:01:37 PM)

I can see tazzy's point about your lumping the South together in a mass. While there are a few escapees from Deliverance shambling about the bible belt playing banjos, there's also a lot of far more cosmopolitan counties (and, come to that, States) which resent being stereotyped like that. Georgia and Arkansas have both produced Democrat Presidents, after all. Hell, even Texas managed that one...




PatrickG38 -> RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Vann Woodward) (10/26/2010 1:07:54 PM)

Of course. My wife did her Ph.D. in the city too busy to hate (it's a funny slogan and makes you wonder what they would do if they had time) and the research triangle area in NC is wonderful as are many other areas. Nevertheless, I am talking about a very real cultural phenomenon is the former slave holding states (as of 1861) and the elections basically support my position, but I do appreciate you pointing out that in no way to I mean everyone in the region.




tazzygirl -> RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Vann Woodward) (10/26/2010 1:16:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38

I, like most historians, define the South as the the former slaveholding states as of 1861, i.e soouth of the Mason-Dixon line and west to the cotton areas of Texas.


So i guess the fact that some northern states still accepted slavery, yet were not south of the M-D line eludes you.




Moonhead -> RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Vann Woodward) (10/26/2010 1:22:18 PM)

Wasn't the issue of slavery in the western territories a big part of what the war was about, come to that?




PatrickG38 -> RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Vann Woodward) (10/26/2010 1:26:55 PM)

I am not sure what you mean by accpeted? The north was absolutely complicit in slavery; I have not sadi otherwise.




PatrickG38 -> RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Vann Woodward) (10/26/2010 1:28:01 PM)

The issue of the expansion of slavery was a large part of the cause for civil war. I am not sure how that related to what we are talking about.




pogo4pres -> RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Vann Woodward) (10/26/2010 1:34:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

So i guess the fact that some northern states still accepted slavery, yet were not south of the M-D line eludes you.



Only Delaware was a slave state NORTH of the Mason-Dixon line in 1861. The Mason-Dixon line runs from the Atlantic ocean and, forms the southern border of Delaware - Maryland.  The line turns north at roughly the halfway point between the Atlantic & the Chesapeake  to form the western  border of Delaware - Maryland, then turns to the west at Pennsylvania.   Now Pennsylvania especially the areas south and southwest of Philadelphia were "slavery sympathizers" but the state as a whole was FREE.



Historically,
Some Knucklehead in NJ




PatrickG38 -> RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Vann Woodward) (10/26/2010 1:55:25 PM)

Yes, Delaware was the one exception as a slaveholding state in 1861 that was on the other sine of the line (although techincally East of it not Soth. Thanks.




tazzygirl -> RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Vann Woodward) (10/26/2010 2:33:18 PM)

quote:

I, like most historians, define the South as the the former slaveholding states as of 1861, i.e soouth of the Mason-Dixon line and west to the cotton areas of Texas.



June 1861 -- Four Slave States Stay in the Union.
Despite their acceptance of slavery, Delaware, Kentucky, Maryland, and Missouri did not join the Confederacy. Although divided in their loyalties, a combination of political maneuvering and Union military pressure kept these states from seceding.

http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/cwphtml/tl1861.html

Yet, three from south of that line were part of the union, and still were accepting of slavery.




PatrickG38 -> RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Vann Woodward) (10/26/2010 3:01:20 PM)

Yes I know as I teach this subject. What's the point.




tazzygirl -> RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Vann Woodward) (10/26/2010 3:09:28 PM)

The point... Teacher... is that your definition isnt accurate.




PatrickG38 -> RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Vann Woodward) (10/26/2010 3:57:25 PM)

You asked me how I defines the south.  If you exclude the non-seceding states by point is even stronger.




JstAnotherSub -> RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Vann Woodward) (10/26/2010 4:04:17 PM)

good grief what a bunch of mumbo jumbo.....or something.




JstAnotherSub -> RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Vann Woodward) (10/26/2010 4:06:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38

You asked me how I defines the south.  If you exclude the non-seceding states by point is even stronger.
you makin fun of hows we talk down here?




tazzygirl -> RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Vann Woodward) (10/26/2010 4:11:19 PM)

For a teacher, you make alot of spelling mistakes. But thats neither here nor there.

You are attempting to paint the South as continuing to be backwards and racist... more so than any other part of the country. A year ago, the rumor mills by the birthers began to unravel. Thats why those results were as they were... not because people are stupid or racist, but because they didnt know who to believe among all the liars.

quote:

These stories coupled with the simply shocking poll results that a majority of Southerners (53%) don’t accept that President Obama was born in the United States, indicate a region addicted to ignorance and a threat to the future of democratic governance in America.


I find this comment by you to be extremely prejudicial and full of misinformation. According to the poll you quoted, the following states are in the south...

Florida, North Carolina, South Carolina, Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, Virginia, Tennessee, Kentucky, Louisiana, Arkansas, and Texas.

So you assertions that your definition for a southern state is the same as anyone elses... not flying here.




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