how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? (Full Version)

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Phoenixandnika -> how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? (4/26/2006 1:17:47 PM)

 I can't count how many times I have read threads and arguments about the bdsm lifestyle and gorean lifestyle verses domestic abuse. It often turns into a very heated topic. Safe, sane, and consensual are phrases constantly used.

I began thinking lately about this lately.
 
Does the definition of these three words vary from person to person?

If they vary how does one define what is safe, sane and consensual for "them"?

If as lifestyles weather bdsm or gorean IF we cannot define things amongst ourselves how can we expect others outside of the lifestyle to understand them?
 
The reality is to those not a part of these alternative lifestyles can easily call allot of what goes on domestic abuse. I also think that those that are abusers are not unique to alternative lifestyles, however; they are all to often the ones that those outside the lifestyle see as "representatives" of the lifestyles.
 
I would like to get individual definitions of safe, sane, and consensual.

I would like to get personal views on how as individuals we each view the difference between bdsm lifestyle /gorean lifestyle versus abuse.
 
Please do not make this out to be finger pointing to specific people.
I think by discussing personal definitions we can come to understand each other and then hopefully help others outside of our arenas understand us.
 
Nika {Phoenix}



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? (4/26/2006 1:20:25 PM)

I don't think we can make any generalizations about the actions of sadists or abusers (after all, some sadists desire and do things that make some abusers look like child's play).  I happen to think actual sadism is incompatible with actual masochism.  A sadist wants the other person to feel PAIN, not pleasure.  A masochist feels pain AS pleasure.

Fluffy sadists however, who want the other person to enjoy the pain, works perfect with a masochist.

To me the difference is the motivation and source- is the person doing the action out of a sense of security, ethics?  Or are they doing it out of insecurity and fear? 

http://www.collarchat.com/m_324113/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#324707
Sadism vs Abuse

http://www.collarchat.com/m_130087/mpage_1/key_sadist%252Cabuse/tm.htm#130087
What is a sadist?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_308357/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#308357
Training and abuse

http://www.collarchat.com/m_255676/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#255676
Defining Domination v Abuse

http://www.collarchat.com/m_224182/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#224182
Ms/Ds is it a license to abuse?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_177013/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#177013
Discipline or abuse?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_142096/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#142096
Abuse vs discipline

http://www.collarchat.com/m_131849/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#131849
Abuse disguised as dominance

http://www.collarchat.com/m_123045/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#123045
Overuse of "Abuse"

http://www.collarchat.com/m_47262/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#47262
Physical Abuse of a slave

http://www.collarchat.com/m_41029/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#41029
SM vs Abuse

http://www.collarchat.com/m_1874/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#1874
BDSM versus Abuse




MissyRane -> RE: how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? (4/26/2006 1:20:53 PM)

hmm very good question, I've been wondering this a lot myself..I guess safe sane consensual means that there will be no permanent marks or damage..except maybe permanent marks with a mutual agreement?[&:] And abuse is the rest[&:]



mnottertail -> RE: how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? (4/26/2006 1:22:29 PM)

The thread package has been done to death.  But soft, for some fresh insight, we shall see... 

Safe sane consensual abuse is kinda like this:

Honey I am home, can I beat you tonight and wipe the house with you?

OK, honey....

What's for dinner???..........Jesus H CHRIST??!!?? Have you seen Wally's report card.......WTF is wrong with that kid?

Ron (kinda like that)



Reasonable -> RE: how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? (4/26/2006 1:31:58 PM)

Abuse= something you won't accept willingly.

SSC = feel good buzzwords created as a way to dumb down "wiitwd" with the nilla world-and newbies.



Proprietrix -> RE: how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? (4/26/2006 1:36:11 PM)

Fairly simple for me.
1. I don't do the SSC mantra.
2. Abuse includes a predator and a victim instead of willing participants.



Phoenixandnika -> RE: how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? (4/26/2006 1:39:29 PM)

What do you mean you don't do the safe, sane, consensual montra?
 
~curiously~
 
Nika{Phoenix}



mistoferin -> RE: how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? (4/26/2006 1:43:33 PM)

I don't follow the whole safe, sane and consensual philosophy because the terms are relative to the person using them and therefore not consistent. I prefer to follow the RACK line of thought, although that is not without its imperfections also. It comes mcuh closer though in my mind to being sure that informed decisions are being made.

As for differentiating what we do from abuse. Abuse is anything done by one person to another that is in violation of that person's consent or with ill intent or without regard to their emotional or physical safety...but that is just my definition.



proudsub -> RE: how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? (4/26/2006 1:46:12 PM)

I would define abuse as any nonconsensual activity that causes physical or emotional harm.

I would define "safe, sane and consensual" as limiting yourself to activities of which:
1. You have enough knowledge to perform safely. To me this means not doing anything that will casue damage to one's health or well-being above what is planned in the activity. (For example branding will leave a permanent scar but that was planned, if it burns someone beyond what is planned then it was done unsafely)
2. You perform only with agreement of all parties.
3. You  perform only when of sound mind (for example when not under the influence of a mind altering substance or excessive anger).

I think defining "sane" is the tough one here because many people would say that a lot of what we do isn't sane in their book.
.



Proprietrix -> RE: how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? (4/26/2006 1:57:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixandnika
What do you mean you don't do the safe, sane, consensual montra?
~curiously~
Nika{Phoenix}
 
It's not my motto. It's somebody else's motto that they made for their purposes, and some other people adopted it. I didn't adopt it. I apply SSC to my life just as much as apply the boy scout motto to my life. They might be great mottos. But they're not mine.
If someone says they won't play with me because I don't adhere to SSC, I simply reply "Ok, thanks anyway."
Personally, if I were going to adopt a motto, I'd be closer to adopting the boy scout motto than SSC. I think SSC is too broadly defined and vague, as is the group of people who are using it.
And "sane" is a legal word, not a medical/psychological word. People aren't diagnosed as "insane". It's a term used in a courtroom, not a hospital. I can't adopt a motto with a legal definition when half the play I do is inconsistent with the laws of the state I live in (i.e. assault, battery, etc..) Nor is half the play I do "safe" according to the definition of safe.
It's simply not my motto and it doesn't apply to my life or the people I play with.
Which is ok. Because I have my ethics & morals to keep me in line, better than an acronym ever could anyway.  :)



meatcleaver -> RE: how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? (4/26/2006 2:15:11 PM)

Many of the activities in BDSM whether consensual or not are illegal  in several countries and someone asking to be abused would probably not be an adequate defence for the abuser so the idea of SSC is really an informal agreement between two people. As for definitions, that is going to vary between any two partners or players and has little value beyond them. Boundaries and limits vary so SSC is inevitably relative to the people involved. I use the term abuser because that is how prosecution authorities would view the person metering out the any physical or psychological violence.



VvShadowspawnvV -> RE: how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? (4/26/2006 3:02:28 PM)

"Nor is half the play I do "safe" according to the definition of safe.
It's simply not my motto and it doesn't apply to my life or the people I play with.
Which is ok. Because I have my ethics & morals to keep me in line, better than an acronym ever could anyway.  :)"
 
*applause*
 
becca



Tikkiee -> RE: how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? (4/26/2006 3:22:48 PM)

quote:

A masochist feels pain AS pleasure.

Sorry LuckyAlbatross, but I have to disagree with you here. For myself, there is no real pleasure in pain. I don't feel any pleasure from a whipping, a flogging, or a caning, etc. Just pain. Pure, mind wretching, uninhibited, searing pain. It does not arouse me sexually, it does not put me in subspace; it does however, let me know that I am alive, and that I can feel.  
 
Now, in question to the OP and how do Chris and I distinguish what we do from it being abuse. I am not going to say consent, because there have been times that I have wanted him to stop and he just kept going, knowing that I could go further. I am going to say that for me, it becomes abuse when it stops being fun; and when I stop feeling.
Of course, this is just my own personal view on it [:)]



TedEbear -> RE: how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? (4/26/2006 6:12:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixandnika

If they vary how does one define what is safe, sane and consensual for "them"?

I would like to get individual definitions of safe, sane, and consensual.

Nika {Phoenix}




What is safe? The domme is even tempered, not drunk or wasted. She is skilled in the safe use of the tools of her trade.

What is sane? Activities that won't hospitalize the submissive, including permanently injure or cripple, or attract the attention of the authorities.

What is consensual? The domme does not violate my hard limits or hers.





KittenWithaTwist -> RE: how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? (4/26/2006 6:28:44 PM)

I don't do SSC. I don't believe in it. Since it is, as you point out in your post, so varied from one person to the next, what is the point of using it as a mantra? I believe in doing what is comfortable (or uncomfortable) for me, when I (or my partner) wish to do it. I'm the only one who knows when it isn't okay or consensual.



KittenWithaTwist -> RE: how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? (4/26/2006 6:31:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tikkiee

quote:

A masochist feels pain AS pleasure.

Sorry LuckyAlbatross, but I have to disagree with you here. For myself, there is no real pleasure in pain. I don't feel any pleasure from a whipping, a flogging, or a caning, etc. Just pain. Pure, mind wretching, uninhibited, searing pain. It does not arouse me sexually, it does not put me in subspace; it does however, let me know that I am alive, and that I can feel.  
 
Now, in question to the OP and how do Chris and I distinguish what we do from it being abuse. I am not going to say consent, because there have been times that I have wanted him to stop and he just kept going, knowing that I could go further. I am going to say that for me, it becomes abuse when it stops being fun; and when I stop feeling.
Of course, this is just my own personal view on it [:)]


Then you aren't a masochist and LA's point does not apply to you. A masochist is someone who derives sexual gratification from pain or physical abuse (not emotional/mental/physical abuse, but an abusing of the body). I understand what you mean by saying you can feel something when your body is in pain, but I wouldn't call that feeling masochistic. Many SI'ers have that same reaction.



dorsaisgirl1 -> RE: how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? (4/26/2006 7:00:17 PM)

safe would mean that the other person has taken into acount the things that could go wrong and has limited as much as posible the chances that injury outside of what both partys has agreed to would happen.

sane meaning that the person is not mentaly dysfunctional or under the influince of mind altering substances.


consensual meaning the people involved have agreed at some point in time weather it was at the very begining of there relationship or everytime they play as to how things will be or that they are not being held against there will being made to do things that they dont wont to do.


r.a.c.k       risk       aware    consensual      kink      means they know the risks and are consenting to kinky activeitys .

abuse is not consensual i would also guess that for the victom its not kinky or pleasureable abuse in my book is like stealing
 
these are my definitions others definitions may very from person to person but in both ssc and rack there is consent .  



MichMasochist -> RE: how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? (4/26/2006 7:29:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KittenWithaTwist

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tikkiee

quote:

A masochist feels pain AS pleasure.

Sorry LuckyAlbatross, but I have to disagree with you here. For myself, there is no real pleasure in pain. I don't feel any pleasure from a whipping, a flogging, or a caning, etc. Just pain. Pure, mind wretching, uninhibited, searing pain. It does not arouse me sexually, it does not put me in subspace; it does however, let me know that I am alive, and that I can feel.  
 
Now, in question to the OP and how do Chris and I distinguish what we do from it being abuse. I am not going to say consent, because there have been times that I have wanted him to stop and he just kept going, knowing that I could go further. I am going to say that for me, it becomes abuse when it stops being fun; and when I stop feeling.
Of course, this is just my own personal view on it [:)]


Then you aren't a masochist and LA's point does not apply to you. A masochist is someone who derives sexual gratification from pain or physical abuse (not emotional/mental/physical abuse, but an abusing of the body). I understand what you mean by saying you can feel something when your body is in pain, but I wouldn't call that feeling masochistic. Many SI'ers have that same reaction.


I would hafta disagree Tikkiee is a masochist of a different flavor.  Myself, like her, I get no sexual gratification, arrousal, excetera from pain, humiliation, or degredation, in and of it's self.  It is more from the loss of control to the woman.  Of being helplessly at her mercy as she takes cruel enjoyment in causing me to suffer.  Of being forced to, and I'll say it, sexually explioted by her for her personal gratification.

Of course subspace is it's own reward in and of it's self, but the loss of control is the essential point.  It's the pain, humiliation, degradation, that drives the point home that she has power over me.  It's like when a certain domme grabs my balls and squeezes, it's not sexual and I get no pleasure from the pain.  It is about she has control and the power to do that and all I can do is beg.

I feel, I feel alive.



BeachMystress -> RE: how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? (4/27/2006 12:32:14 PM)


I just wanted to mention an organization who claims to help those in abusive alternative relationships extricate themselves. http://www.immediatefamily.org/ The site sounds good and I think it is a valuable service to the community.



TedEbear -> RE: how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? (4/27/2006 3:47:41 PM)

Might have potential. But I'd be just as leery of them as I would of some woman on the net offering pro sessions.



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