RE: The Best Government Money Can Buy

RE: The Best Government Money Can Buy (Full Version)

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rulemylife -> RE: The Best Government Money Can Buy (10/28/2010 3:40:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: Original: rml "Clearly there was a tremendous amount of grass-roots energy building — a grass-roots prairie fire that was building in intensity," Law, now the Crossroads president, said in an interview. "We felt that one of the things we could do was pour gasoline on that." Now shall we talk about what Crossroads is and who they are funded by? No. In your mind, there seems to be no difference between: 1) a political organization deciding that they can make hay out of an issue, and then going and paying for professional "activists" and union members to protest at an event, or against a person, bused in from outside the district, to conduct a protest that would not otherwise exist. Such a protest would never have existed without the funding and the planning of the political organization. 2) a political organization that sees a rising tide of discontent and local protests, by people who have rarely if ever been politically energized, and whose desires for change mirrors many of their own concerns, and decide to assist by funding. The protests, and the discontent existed before the decision to support it and fund it. One is an "astro-turf" and you buddy Rahm is an acknowledged master of it. The other is a "grassroots" movement, that has gained traction and support, and may turn into an organization, or organizations with a permanent political impact. You see the difference? Firm No Firm, it's you who do not see the difference because you want to believe in this movement. Yes, I will agree that it was started as a grassroots movement, but it was quickly co-opted by Dick Armey and Rick Scott to campaign against health care reform. And now it is being used by different corporate interests to advance their goals while you merrily skip down the yellow brick road they have laid out for you.

FirmhandKY -> RE: The Best Government Money Can Buy (10/28/2010 5:16:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife Yes, I will agree that it was started as a grassroots movement, but it was quickly co-opted by Dick Armey and Rick Scott to campaign against health care reform. Well, that's a major point. You finally acknowledge that it at least started as a true grassroots movement, and not an astro-turf operation. quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife And now it is being used by different corporate interests to advance their goals while you merrily skip down the yellow brick road they have laid out for you. Perhaps. Your lefty "corporate interests are all evil and need to be punished" bias is showing now, however. All "successful" grassroots movement morph into more regularized and official organizations or movements. They become part of "the institutions of society". You just don't like the part of society, and the concepts that they espouse. Fair enough. We can argue those concepts whenever you want (and whenever I have the interest). Firm

tazzygirl -> RE: The Best Government Money Can Buy (10/28/2010 7:26:31 PM)
quote: Ok, now you are going to make me hijack my own thread and, even worse, have to agree with Willbeur. How is it we "got no say in any of it"? Why do you expect a father to be responsible for the child he produces but insist that it is only your decision whether to have the child? Do you have the right to force a woman to have the child? Do you have the right to force her to have an abortion? What risks do you assume in either decision? Do you know the risks a woman faces when deciding? Why do we expect you to be responsible? Because you are, if not for your seed, there would be no child. But until that child is viable outside of the womb, its our possession, and ours alone. A woman may ask the father for advice, bring him in on her wishes, talk to him and ask what he wants... but ultimately, its her decision. You have no say.

rulemylife -> RE: The Best Government Money Can Buy (10/29/2010 7:19:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife Yes, I will agree that it was started as a grassroots movement, but it was quickly co-opted by Dick Armey and Rick Scott to campaign against health care reform. Well, that's a major point. You finally acknowledge that it at least started as a true grassroots movement, and not an astro-turf operation. quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife And now it is being used by different corporate interests to advance their goals while you merrily skip down the yellow brick road they have laid out for you. Perhaps. Your lefty "corporate interests are all evil and need to be punished" bias is showing now, however. All "successful" grassroots movement morph into more regularized and official organizations or movements. They become part of "the institutions of society". You just don't like the part of society, and the concepts that they espouse. Fair enough. We can argue those concepts whenever you want (and whenever I have the interest). Firm Firm, weren't you just arguing on here a few weeks ago that there were no corporate interests involved and that this was purely a movement organized by the people?

rulemylife -> RE: The Best Government Money Can Buy (10/29/2010 7:25:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: Ok, now you are going to make me hijack my own thread and, even worse, have to agree with Willbeur. How is it we "got no say in any of it"? Why do you expect a father to be responsible for the child he produces but insist that it is only your decision whether to have the child? Do you have the right to force a woman to have the child? Do you have the right to force her to have an abortion? What risks do you assume in either decision? Do you know the risks a woman faces when deciding? Why do we expect you to be responsible? Because you are, if not for your seed, there would be no child. But until that child is viable outside of the womb, its our possession, and ours alone. A woman may ask the father for advice, bring him in on her wishes, talk to him and ask what he wants... but ultimately, its her decision. You have no say. Gee, and who let us implant that seed? But we have no say until the child is born? And when the child is born then she also ultimately assumes all responsibility for the child? Because, after all, it was her decision. I've heard that's not how it works.

tazzygirl -> RE: The Best Government Money Can Buy (10/29/2010 7:37:30 AM)
It isnt how it works. Guess what? You guys dont like how it works? Two options... change it.... lol or keep it in your pants. As i have stated before, all it takes is a little snip snip. Until the child reaches the age of viability within the womb, it is considered part of her body. quote: Gee, and who let us implant that seed? I like this part of your thinking. Assumptions, yet again, are dangerous. Is it your contention sex should only be for procreation?

rulemylife -> RE: The Best Government Money Can Buy (10/29/2010 7:53:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl It isnt how it works. Guess what? You guys dont like how it works? Two options... change it.... lol or keep it in your pants. As i have stated before, all it takes is a little snip snip. Until the child reaches the age of viability within the womb, it is considered part of her body. quote: Gee, and who let us implant that seed? I like this part of your thinking. Assumptions, yet again, are dangerous. Is it your contention sex should only be for procreation? No, it is my contention that you are trying to portray women as some sort of victims of a man's sexual drives rather than as active participants. You want to have it both ways. "It's my decision, but when I decide it is your responsibility".

tazzygirl -> RE: The Best Government Money Can Buy (10/29/2010 8:04:22 AM)
The law made it your responsibility. The law made it her decision. The laws were based upon society getting fed up with having to care for the after effects of a sexual encounter and men being able to walk away and abandon their "seed". Allowing men to decide to force a woman to give birth will lead to abuse. Surely even you can see that part of the issue. An ex discovers a woman is pregnant, what better way to screw her over than to force her to give birth, then force her to raise the child she doesnt want by refusing to sign over rights. Until the age of viability, the woman has all the rights. Past that age, which currently is 22 weeks, there are many ways a woman is forced. On the flip side, for your argument to work, men would have the right to force a woman to have an abortion simply because he doesnt want to take responsibility for his actions. Until they tied child support to professional licenses and started locking up dead beat dads, the men called all the shots. Now you dont like how the tables have turned. I have no sympathy. 80% of single parent households are run by women. People bitch about welfare moms, yet men are now bitching about women who dont want to become one.

rulemylife -> RE: The Best Government Money Can Buy (10/29/2010 8:07:32 AM)
And how about the other side of the coin, when the man doesn't want to her to have an abortion? Is that not his child also?

tazzygirl -> RE: The Best Government Money Can Buy (10/29/2010 8:14:06 AM)
So you would force a woman to have a child, then demand a paternity test ot prove you are the father. What if you are not? Again, until the age of viability, the laws are on her side, medicine is on her side. The baby cannot live outside of untero. Frozen embryos have changed the face of all these. A man can deny her access to those even though they are half hers.

DomYngBlk -> RE: The Best Government Money Can Buy (10/29/2010 8:24:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl 377 in... 55 dollars out... still plenty left for the union... yep.. very feasible. Glad you agree! If you think any union spends 15% of its dues on political donations youre even more delusional than I already thought. (And given your delusion that abortion is an "utterly feminine" matter, thats going a long way) So you spent time running a Union as well? What haven't you done lol Nope, never ran one. But I consult to 3 and meet with each of them no less than quarterly. Of course you do. And they, of course, give you access to the inner workings of the Union. Again, is there anything that you haven't done? LOL

rulemylife -> RE: The Best Government Money Can Buy (10/29/2010 8:25:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl So you would force a woman to have a child, then demand a paternity test ot prove you are the father. What if you are not? Again, until the age of viability, the laws are on her side, medicine is on her side. The baby cannot live outside of untero. Frozen embryos have changed the face of all these. A man can deny her access to those even though they are half hers. Read that last statement again. Substitute half his. And then think about your other argument.

DomYngBlk -> RE: The Best Government Money Can Buy (10/29/2010 8:27:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife And how about the other side of the coin, when the man doesn't want to her to have an abortion? Is that not his child also? When we start, as a group, as men to take care of the responsibilities that we have as the Fathers of children then we can start opening out pie holes about this issue. As it stands now not many men want to live to that level of responsibility so I can't sit here and try to tell a woman what to do with her body. Why do you suppose that she makes that decision in the first place? Just placing our names as a Leader or Master doesn't make us responsible. We have to DO THE job a well......

tazzygirl -> RE: The Best Government Money Can Buy (10/29/2010 8:31:49 AM)
I am. Men can determine what occurs outside her body. Men can prevent her from becoming pregnant. There is nothing in the frozen embryo that involves a woman's physical integrity. Pregnancy and birth involve inherent risks, up to and including death. The baby, once viable, takes precedence over a woman's wishes, but not her life. Until that age of viability is reached, its all up to her. She doesnt even have to tell a man she is pregnant. I noticed you avoided the rest of that post.

FirmhandKY -> RE: The Best Government Money Can Buy (10/29/2010 8:32:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife No, it is my contention that you are trying to portray women as some sort of victims of a man's sexual drives rather than as active participants. You want to have it both ways. "It's my decision, but when I decide it is your responsibility". Hell must have frozen over. I agree with rml. [8D] Firm

tazzygirl -> RE: The Best Government Money Can Buy (10/29/2010 8:37:42 AM)
Allow me to put this another way. The courts have ruled that in frozen embryo cases that men cannot be forced to become a father. The courts have also ruled in abortion cases that women cannot be forced to become mothers.

rulemylife -> RE: The Best Government Money Can Buy (10/29/2010 8:38:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife And how about the other side of the coin, when the man doesn't want to her to have an abortion? Is that not his child also? When we start, as a group, as men to take care of the responsibilities that we have as the Fathers of children then we can start opening out pie holes about this issue. As it stands now not many men want to live to that level of responsibility so I can't sit here and try to tell a woman what to do with her body. Why do you suppose that she makes that decision in the first place? Just placing our names as a Leader or Master doesn't make us responsible. We have to DO THE job a well...... Many men do take care of those responsibilities, in fact I would think it is fair to say most do. But I also think it is fair to say there is a double-standard. I can get someone pregnant and it is entirely her decision what to do even though I am the father? But after she makes the decision without my input it is up to me to be responsible?

tazzygirl -> RE: The Best Government Money Can Buy (10/29/2010 8:40:43 AM)
Yes, because you knew the potential for pregnancy from having sex.

rulemylife -> RE: The Best Government Money Can Buy (10/29/2010 8:44:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife No, it is my contention that you are trying to portray women as some sort of victims of a man's sexual drives rather than as active participants. You want to have it both ways. "It's my decision, but when I decide it is your responsibility". Hell must have frozen over. I agree with rml. [8D] Firm Someone save me before I turn into a conservative. [:D]

DomYngBlk -> RE: The Best Government Money Can Buy (10/29/2010 8:57:52 AM)
Look around. See many unwed mothers walking around? Single moms where there is no man except when he wants to come round for some? Do other men try to help out the single moms? Come on rule you know the answers to all these. When we decide to step up and LEAD then we can have a say. Without it all men are being hurt by those who won't take up that mantle responsibility. Only need to look at the pages of profiles here to see how many "Doms" go from one sub to the next on a whim. Men actually think that Ronald Reagan was more moral the Bill Clinton. We have different roles in this world, men and women. Unless we decide to stand up and live it then we are destined to have women make decisions without our input.

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